Are City too soft / nice against the opposition?

[Negan]

Well the thing is, these “nastier” type of players, the one who get stuck in a lot and tackle hard.... that tends to be their only weapon, they aren’t usually good with the ball, skillfull, pacy or clinical. So it’s good to have maybe 2 or 3 of these types of players in your team but if you have an 11 full of them then the football you’ll watch will be awful and no doubt we’d be near the bottom of the league, there’s only so far aggression can take you, the top teams find a way through with their skill eventually. 

[reformed_red]

8 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Thank you for the reply mate, interesting stuff.

Having been around, but not as much as some other people daresay, I don't think Bristol is particularly wealthy, certainly not markedly so. I wouldn't say it's a poor city though, places like Toxteth and Birkenhead take the title of being "poor places" for me. The influx of people from London in recent years had changed that. It is perhaps a middle class City on the whole and I do agree with you in large parts.

I think what you say about banning orders is a good point though, one I'd not really considered.

I wonder what the level of inequality in Bristol is. It's got to be up there amongst cities in the UK. The differences in the way people enjoy the football at AG shows this for me, at least. I do like that football clubs take a broad sample across the entire community.

Did no one tell you?

You're not allowed to respond in a balanced and polite manner when another poster challenges your opinion.

[Major Isewater]

20 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

@reddogkev why did you rubbish me 

Because he could . Reddogkev does what he wants .

 

[Red7]

12 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

You can be physical without being like Cardiff. I’m enjoying how we play. And credit goes to LJ and his staff . 

Yes, spot on. Flint, Baker and Wright are hard as nails but not dirty in any way. I find myself looking at them during games (no, not in that way) and thinking to myself "I wouldn't **** with him on or off the field. 

[cidered abroad]

The crowd we are, reflects the way we have always played. The team and playing style reflects the crowd.

City have never had constant success like some clubs. I often believe that we prefer to see an open game, with intricate passing and lose 3-4, than a dull, boring 1-0 with long periods of turgid stuff.

Yet there are clubs, especially in the old industrial Midlands and North, where the fans are really happy with the latter. These are also the clubs where some have had long periods of success or been chasing successful neighbouring clubs.

The little pockets of success for both clubs in Bristol have been so few that we don't expect to win against many teams. We're always seen as the underdogs who will lose, so let's lose nicely!

Best example I can think of are Wolves. We never win there, are deliriously happy with an away draw and usually get beaten at home because they are the big club and we are the minnows. Wolverhampton, a former dirty, horrible industrial town. Bristol, even as a light industrial city, a much more pleasant place to be in.

[reformed_red]

Whilst I agree in parts with the OP, the case study used against this is Man City. They are not the archetypal "nasty" side, they just blow teams away with their football. 

I think football has "changed". No more is being physical and cynical the pathway to success; it's about athleticism, tactics and technical ability in a way that I feel is unprecedented compared to days past.

[ZiderEyed]

7 minutes ago, reformed_red said:

Did no one tell you?

You're not allowed to respond in a balanced and polite manner when another poster challenges your opinion.

Out of reactions already so have a "like" in spirit.

[reformed_red]

1 minute ago, ZiderEyed said:

Out of reactions already so have a "like" in spirit.

At this time in the morning?

Brother, you need help.

[ZiderEyed]

3 minutes ago, reformed_red said:

At this time in the morning?

Brother, you need help.

What can I say? Share the love 

Normally out by 10 past midnight  to be fair!

[Major Isewater]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The crowd we are, reflects the way we have always played. The team and playing style reflects the crowd.

City have never had constant success like some clubs. I often believe that we prefer to see an open game, with intricate passing and lose 3-4, than a dull, boring 1-0 with long periods of turgid stuff.

Yet there are clubs, especially in the old industrial Midlands and North, where the fans are really happy with the latter. These are also the clubs where some have had long periods of success or been chasing successful neighbouring clubs.

The little pockets of success for both clubs in Bristol have been so few that we don't expect to win against many teams. We're always seen as the underdogs who will lose, so let's lose nicely!

Best example I can think of are Wolves. We never win there, are deliriously happy with an away draw and usually get beaten at home because they are the big club and we are the minnows. Wolverhampton, a former dirty, horrible industrial town. Bristol, even as a light industrial city, a much more pleasant place to be in.

This isn't the case for the squad nowadays. I have been impressed by their belief and refusal to lie down for anyone, even the Prem clubs we played .

I really feared a battering at the Etihad but they took the game to the team at the top of the footballing pyramid and merited to be there. 

They start each game like they are going to win it , home or away .

I think it was Norman Hunter in an interview who said that in his time City were hard to beat at home but lacked a bit of confidence on their travels .

That was then.

 

[Cowshed]

11 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Just considering some areas that might be holding us back, and I wonder if we are too nice, or soft, or even friendly - to be truly competitive at the top.

Ok, there are 2 clear exceptions, Baker and Flint, who dominate and intimidate in equal measure.  But what about the rest of the team? 

You could say that out of the rest, Wright, Pack, Smith, and Reid put themselves about, but do they go far enough?  Even Diedhoiu, the big man upfront, doesn't seem to give defenders as torrid time as you might expect.

This goes all the way up to Lee Johnson, who is the proverbial nice guy, always smiling with a happy go lucky shine to his eyes. Yes, Macca and no doubt Holden channel their inner beast if they need to, but does this go far enough?  Even Stephen Lansdown is always pictured with a charming grin.  An affable man if ever there was one.

Look at Wolves, savage creatures by name and nature, with their gaffer the type of man to fix you with his mean stare and cheer in your directors box with hostile passion at a last minute winner.

Now, I wouldn't want us to have the terrible discipline of Leeds for example, but a touch more aggression wouldn't go amiss, would it?  Think of Bryan failing to stop Ameobi, and the rest of the midfield merely running back with him, and dare I say it they may need to be a bit more uglier and brutal - could be the way to bring home the points in games like Bolton away, Millwall home, etc.

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

 

 

This team to progress needs to continue on its modern trajectory.  The matches v Wolves and Bolton were conceded not because the opposition wanted it more, or were nasty, or street wise it was because Wolves were technically superior, Bolton undid City not because the team did not tackle but because of its defensive shape going backwards instead of holding/delaying/denying , that was tactical.

Recent poorer performances have seen CB's playing at fullback, midfielders at full back  ... There is the technical leading to tactical inflexibility. Not being able to play through teams sitting in  banks of four and five requires more technical players to have the tactical ability to adapt.

In a time where players have never made less tackles, made more passes, and have never been more skilled  this squad does not need a Dave Martin to add steel and street savvy. 

 

[Major Isewater]

8 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Out of reactions already so have a "like" in spirit.

If you pay a fiver you will never ever be out of likes again .

That's got to be worth it to lose your frustration isn't it ?

[Maesknoll Red]

Our crowd is far too nice,  it really takes an nasty incident on the pitch to get them riled up.  Too many sit there and just nod in agreement or glare at anyone giving the linesman stick when he flags us offside - the player may have been offside, but a many grounds the officials get stick for every decision against the home team, this must put pressure on some of them (not all will fold to it, obviously). 

Opposing players don’t get much stick, no idea why, it’s only for 90 minutes, it’s as if some can’t drop their liberal, Grauniad reading ways even for the heat of the battle, shame, as it would be nice for AG to be an intimidating ground for away teams and officials 

[ZiderEyed]

4 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If you pay a fiver you will never ever be out of likes again .

That's got to be worth it to lose your frustration isn't it ?

I'm rather enjoying my OTIB reactions chastity belt.

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

This team to progress needs to continue on its modern trajectory.  

Recent poorer performances have seen CB playing at fullback, midfielders at full back due ... There is the technical leading to tactical inflexibility. 

And despite all the injuries and various suspensions City are still in the top six.....

[BRISTOL86]

It’s an oft-touted myth on here that we’re soft as a club. I just don’t see any evidence of that. What does it even mean? How does one measure our ‘softness’ ?

Are we more soft that, equally as soft as, or less soft than the vast majority of the division who occupy space below us in the table?

[Phileas Fogg]

21 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Our crowd is far too nice,  it really takes an nasty incident on the pitch to get them riled up.  Too many sit there and just nod in agreement or glare at anyone giving the linesman stick when he flags us offside - the player may have been offside, but a many grounds the officials get stick for every decision against the home team, this must put pressure on some of them (not all will fold to it, obviously). 

Opposing players don’t get much stick, no idea why, it’s only for 90 minutes, it’s as if some can’t drop their liberal, Grauniad reading ways even for the heat of the battle, shame, as it would be nice for AG to be an intimidating ground for away teams and officials 

I don’t think this is unique to us. Home support is generally placid wherever you go. We’ll always be our own biggest critics anyway and home fans around the country would say the same about their own teams.

I’ve watched games all around the country in various home ends and it’s just how it is now. 

Society is very homogenous now so saying northern clubs or southern clubs are different isn’t a thing in my opinion because people often move to towns and cities for work. Perhaps 20 years ago even it was more valid.

After watching several teams in various grounds i’d say with confidence that AG’s atmosphere is better than average and that the demographic is fairly typical of anywhere in the country. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don’t think this is unique to us. Home support is generally placid wherever you go. We’ll always be our own biggest critics anyway and home fans around the country would say the same about their own teams.

I’ve watched games all around the country in various home ends and it’s just how it is now. 

Society is very homogenous now so saying northern clubs or southern clubs are different isn’t a thing in my opinion because people often move to towns and cities for work. Perhaps 20 years ago even it was more valid.

After watching several teams in various grounds i’d say with confidence that AG’s atmosphere is better than average and that the demographic is fairly typical of anywhere in the country. 

 

Agree with this. Definitely a lot less valid than 20 years ago say. Still think we're one of the better ones- as you say better than average.

On the pitch, I think we've improved a bit for sure in this sense, though we seem to be penalised disproportionately compared to say Cardiff!

[Welcome To The Jungle]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

The hypocrisy of Football Fans is laughable at times! Loads slag off Neil Warnock and his teams relentlessly, saying they are cheats, dirty, cynical teams, they feign injuries they are anti-football etc etc ....... and then there are calls for us to be more like them!!

 

Corrected that for you. I think we all are though. If Bobby breaks over the half way line and we have a 3 on 2 situation and he gets taken out, I'll be on my feet screaming cheat etc. The other way round I'd be screaming for someone to take their player out. 

If the ball hits a hand in their box that is by their side, I'm still appealing for the penalty. The ball hits a raised city arm in the penalty area and it is never a penalty.

[spudski]

40 minutes ago, reformed_red said:

Whilst I agree in parts with the OP, the case study used against this is Man City. They are not the archetypal "nasty" side, they just blow teams away with their football. 

I think football has "changed". No more is being physical and cynical the pathway to success; it's about athleticism, tactics and technical ability in a way that I feel is unprecedented compared to days past.

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity :laugh:

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

[SARJ]

Gone are the days of pitched battles and fans throwing Bovril over each other in Greville Smyth park. Now we have half-time face painting. Whole club has gone soft.

[Dastardly and Muttley]

There’s a bit of naivety about the way that we play at times. A quick foul as the other team breaks away, or someone blocking off a run to limit numbers on the counter would have a big impact on some games.

As it never/ very rarely happens, it must be something that our players are coached not to do. This shows that LJ wants the team playing the right way and has trust in our defence and goalkeeper to keep the opponents out when we’re caught out of position.

I admire that, but wish we had a bit more of a streak sometimes.

[reddogkev]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

@reddogkev why did you rubbish me 

Promise Guv, swear I pushed the like button! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

This, absolutely this.

Game has changed in quite a big way now- interceptions have generally replaced tackling- at least at the higher echelons, the higher the level, the more this is the case IMO.

CL probably the best example.

@SARJ Isn't that just a reflection of the game in general here now though?

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

I'm rather enjoying my OTIB reactions chastity belt.

You're a sick man .

 

I like that .

 

[ZiderEyed]

56 minutes ago, spudski said:

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

Brilliant post.

One of my favourite quotes ever is from Paolo Maldini - "if I have to make a tackle, I've done something wrong"

[reformed_red]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

Yeah spot on.

I also heard Danny Murphy on Talksport say that when he was at Crewe Dario Gradi would ask him why he would try and tackle in the middle of the pitch, especially if it was 50/50 or even 60/40 in his favour. He said "You'll either get injured or give away a free kick and possibly get booked. Even if you do win the ball, what are you then going to do with it anyway?".

Interesting stuff. Especially considering that was probably 20 years ago.

[cider-manc]

15 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

We are not at all too nice or soft. In fact, the table below doesn’t lie. I’ve seen plenty of cynical challenges and counters against us killed all season. It’s been refreshing and I’ve applauded City’s new found ways of hacking opponents to halt their momentum.

 

Absolutely this. For the first time in a long time our players are "taking one for the team".

Having said that.. If you take bakers dubious decision and marlon pack out of that table we are suddenly comfortably midtable!

[GrahamC]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

Interesting comment by Xabi Alonso, one of the most underrated midfielders of recent years, who said in his eyes that if he had to make a tackle then it was because he must have made a mistake.

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

I read recently an Interview by Pep, where he said he doesn't coach tackling.

It's all about intercepting, body shape, moving the opposition in to areas of no danger etc.

It's a totally different game these days. A tackle often produces a 50/50 ball, which is not what coach's want.

They would rather let the opposition have the ball and dictate where they have the ball.

It's what we do...when an opposition player receives a ball, we harass them into making a pass, often rushed, we have players trying to intercept those rushed passes.

If a player makes a last ditch challenge or a crunching sliding tackle...it is often because they have been out of position and having to rectify their mistake.

British fans love it and cheer and applaud...abroad it's seen as poor, as that player was out of shape.

I read a comment from Ibrahimovic where he said a player kept having to slide in to him...he said he looked down at him with pity

The modern game is more akin to Basketball these days in it's movement, interceptions, and physical side.

Then you have the referees who blow up for any contact it seems these days.

Being physically strong, is different to being 'Nasty'.

Bryan uses his physical strength very well, most occasions.

His lack of it against Bolton was uncharacteristic...his failure to sprint back and rectify wasn't though.

 

Against Bolton it seemed like we harassed Ameobi into shooting!