The idea that the club are not ready for promotion this season

[View from the Dolman]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

People judging success compared to agents fees are seriously misguided

Agents fees are only one part of a deal with so many factors contributing to fees

Sunderland signed a lot of free transfers for example which normally incur bigger agent fees 

Agent fees are no real  (accuarate)  guide to accurate total recruitment budgets / expenditure

I concur. It's far from the only measure. They also include agent fees for contract extensions so a club with good squad retention can still ring up agent fees.

But it's interesting to note that Brentford outspent us on agent fees in the latest set of those figures and outspent us on wages for the last period (15/16 season) where records can currently be compared (until Brentford FC Ltd file their next set of accounts). So the purported "shoestring budget" at Brentford pedalled by @tinman85 appears to be a complete fabrication.

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

That might be so Major, but I do believe if we had had Pisano, Famara, Duric, Odowda, Hegeler, Oneil, Taylor, to pick from more regularly during the season, then things may have been slightly brighter.

Then those who have been carrying knocks and playing with injuries/illnesses....Baker, Wright, Patto, Bryan, Smith, Pack and others then it's all going to take it's toll over the season.

We can dissect as much as we want...but you can't take away the fact that this season has been a nightmare with injuries, and some have had to play more, some with knocks, and then we have returning players from injuries, who will take time to settle. It all adds up.

If we had had less injuries to prime players and a bigger healthier squad to rotate with over the season, then I would have been more concerned with what's happening.

However...it hasn't been like that.

I watched on Saturday...we tried to play 'our way' but physically and mentally were slower. We haven't been trying to do anything different...the players aren't confused.

We are just knackered through circumstance.

We've gambled in January rather than spending big, as we know we have quality coming back.

Imo....because of these reasons, there is no point trying to find other possible problems, because I don't believe there is anything major going wrong elsewhere at the club.

 

 

Sorry Spud but your being over protective again

He has a fair squad  which is his squad after 5 windows and recruitment of 30or so 0layers but just doesn’t trust or rate most of them and keeps them in the stands or sends them out to Sweden or Cheltenham

Pushing the loanees aside he still had Woodrow , Eliasson etc to utilise 

Now we can debate the merits or not of those players but he’s added greatly to his own problems by filling the squad with players who , he then appears to decide he doesn’t rate or ‘trust’

In simple terms we weren’t down to 11 fit players 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

That might be so Major, but I do believe if we had had Pisano, Famara, Duric, Odowda, Hegeler, Oneil, Taylor, to pick from more regularly during the season, then things may have been slightly brighter.

Then those who have been carrying knocks and playing with injuries/illnesses....Baker, Wright, Patto, Bryan, Smith, Pack and others then it's all going to take it's toll over the season.

We can dissect as much as we want...but you can't take away the fact that this season has been a nightmare with injuries, and some have had to play more, some with knocks, and then we have returning players from injuries, who will take time to settle. It all adds up.

If we had had less injuries to prime players and a bigger healthier squad to rotate with over the season, then I would have been more concerned with what's happening.

However...it hasn't been like that.

I watched on Saturday...we tried to play 'our way' but physically and mentally were slower. We haven't been trying to do anything different...the players aren't confused.

We are just knackered through circumstance.

We've gambled in January rather than spending big, as we know we have quality coming back.

Imo....because of these reasons, there is no point trying to find other possible problems, because I don't believe there is anything major going wrong elsewhere at the club.

 

 

Tactics though?

4-4-2, our variant of 4-4-2 just has been found out IMO, for us. It's been found out and particularly away from home it will be not too difficult to combat. 

I agree the injuries have been dreadful- significantly worse than many clubs this season (Sheffield Wednesday the notable and clear exception). The fact that our physio said it was the worst in his 30 years of football, with double the number of operations as usual, speaks volumes IMO. It all adds up, cumulative.

However, still I see tactical flaws and questionable substitutions on a frequent basis. Be it inflexibility of shape, or trying to put backup players in and shoehorn them into one shape, or even not tailoring shape to an opponent, which can put us on the backfoot- this is all true.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

I concur. It's far from the only measure. They also include agent fees for contract extensions so a club with good squad retention can still ring up agent fees.

But it's interesting to note that Brentford outspent us on agent fees in the latest set of those figures and outspent us on wages for the last period (15/16 season) where records can currently be compared (until Brentford FC Ltd file their next set of accounts). So the purported "shoestring budget" at Brentford pedalled by @tinman85 appears to be a complete fabrication.

Don’t want to get embroiled in this particular row but it really is no guide

We spent over £2million on Engvall (Agents fees who knows but let’s say a meagre £100 k just for example)

If Brentford or another Club sign a player for £600k but  pay the agent £500k for sorting the deal

Our agent fees would be far lower but our overall expenditure wouldn’t before we even look at comparing the quality of player

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sorry Spud but your being over protective again

He has a fair squad but just doesn’t trust or rate most of them and keeps them in the stands or sends them out to Sweden or Cheltenham

Pushing the loanees aside he still had Woodrow , Eliasson etc to utilise 

Now we can debate the merits or not of those players but he’s added greatly to his own problems by filling the squad with players who , he then appears to decide he doesn’t rate or ‘trust’

In simple terms we weren’t down to 11 fit players 

Indeed. And Fammy coming back has served us well. As good as I genuinely think he is, we were much better without.

Personally I would explain to FD why he will be our danger sub for the remainder of the season and next season the attack will be built around him. Let's be honest, Bobby Reid is not going to be here next year, and I expect everyone in the club is aware of that, so it isn't a difficult message to convey. 

[View from the Dolman]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Don’t want to get embroiled in this particular row but it really is no guide

We spent over £2million on Engvall (Agents fees who knows but let’s say a meagre £100 k just for example)

If Brentford or another Club sign a player for £600k but  pay the agent £500k for sorting the deal

Our agent fees would be far lower but our overall expenditure wouldn’t before we even look at comparing the quality of player

I'm not seeing where we're disagreeing tbh! I'm definitely not seeing the agent fees as being the only measure. The company accounts for the last period where they can be directly compared show Brentford outspending us on wages too.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

I'm not seeing where we're disagreeing tbh! I'm definitely not seeing the agent fees as being the only measure. The company accounts for the last period where they can be directly compared show Brentford outspending us on wages too.

I was more addressing the ‘debate’ about ‘Brentford’s shoestring budget’

Just pointing out that the agent fees they paid really gives no indication of their overall recruitment budget 

 

What did astound me was the crap Wages we we were offering for , IIRC the head of recruitment job - The annual wage offered Wouldn’t pay the first teams wages for a week - Madness IMHO when that role is pivotal in the future success or otherwise

[Tin Soldier]

3 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

Sunderland paid millions. That's going well for them.

Reading paid millions. That's going well for them.

Birmingham paid millions. That's going well for them.

Norwich City paid millions. That's going well for them.

Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest and QPR all paid out more than us. That's going well for them.

===========================================================

BOLTON WANDERERS £223,432
IPSWICH TOWN £241,969
BURTON ALBION £268,490
MILLWALL £311,505
BARNSLEY £419,638
SHEFFIELD UNITED £652,070
BRISTOL CITY £843,174
PRESTON NORTH END £1,046,679
NOTTINGHAM FOREST £1,141,512
LEEDS UNITED £1,349,452
BRENTFORD £1,690,415
SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY £1,714,130
QUEENS PARK RANGERS £1,817,113
HULL CITY £1,882,530
WOLVERHAMPTON WANDERERS £2,001,023
CARDIFF CITY £2,026,917
DERBY COUNTY £2,180,305
NORWICH CITY £2,212,410
FULHAM £2,428,175
BIRMINGHAM CITY £2,461,909
MIDDLESBROUGH £2,538,840
READING £2,850,283
SUNDERLAND £4,370,897
ASTON VILLA £5,510,180

You are really plucking at straws here - I will let others highlight the teams that are doing well! All up there in play off contention also. The fact is we need astute acquisitions, and January was a complete car crash! End Off!

[Major Isewater]

28 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Indeed. And Fammy coming back has served us well. As good as I genuinely think he is, we were much better without.

Personally I would explain to FD why he will be our danger sub for the remainder of the season and next season the attack will be built around him. Let's be honest, Bobby Reid is not going to be here next year, and I expect everyone in the club is aware of that, so it isn't a difficult message to convey. 

And what would you say to Djuric ? 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

And what would you say to Djuric ? 

ti si velika gomila

[Major Isewater]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

ti si velika gomila

Dirty sod .

[spudski]

57 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sorry Spud but your being over protective again

He has a fair squad  which is his squad after 5 windows and recruitment of 30or so 0layers but just doesn’t trust or rate most of them and keeps them in the stands or sends them out to Sweden or Cheltenham

Pushing the loanees aside he still had Woodrow , Eliasson etc to utilise 

Now we can debate the merits or not of those players but he’s added greatly to his own problems by filling the squad with players who , he then appears to decide he doesn’t rate or ‘trust’

In simple terms we weren’t down to 11 fit players 

Agreed....but the nucleus of the players that have been injured would have made all the difference.

I doubt there are many teams in this league, who if they ha had the injuries we've had, could have picked lesser squad players to fill their role with the same positive outcomes.

The one's out on loan or on the peripheries aren't first picks for the match day squad.

It's had an effect...and imo, there is no point looking for other reasons, when it's smack bang in our faces shouting at us.

[BTRFTG]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Agreed....but the nucleus of the players that have been injured would have made all the difference.

Seem to recall both GoN and Tomlin had long spells on the sideline when 'injured' last year - tongue sprains, I recall, from telling WeeLee a few home truths. Saturday , 20 mins in, when in desperate need of a cool head in the centre of the park we couldn't have done worse than GoN who via social media confirmed he was fit and raring to go, or Pack who must have been fit given he was on the bench. WeeLee's adept at playing the 'poor me, injury card' when in reality he wouldn't have played the players anyway.

[The Original OTIB]

In golf it's the yips in our case it's the "niggles". News Flash: players always carry "niggles" and always have. The excuse well is running dry ... Take the blame and move on: selection was at least 80% of the problem on Monday and we know where that buck stops. The players need to man up and (in this case) so does the Head Coach.

[spudski]

15 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Seem to recall both GoN and Tomlin had long spells on the sideline when 'injured' last year - tongue sprains, I recall, from telling WeeLee a few home truths. Saturday , 20 mins in, when in desperate need of a cool head in the centre of the park we couldn't have done worse than GoN who via social media confirmed he was fit and raring to go, or Pack who must have been fit given he was on the bench. WeeLee's adept at playing the 'poor me, injury card' when in reality he wouldn't have played the players anyway.

If memory serves me correct...LJ said he played Walsh instead of GoN, because he said we are a Club that's now wanting to give youngsters a chance, experience and pathway. Which should make us stronger for next season.

Pack I believe he said he rested for the Millwall game.

Whether fans agree to it or not, that's the Club we now are.

[Marlborough Red]

16 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

With all due respect you completely and utterly miss the point.

IF, there is a deliberate plan by the club to ensure we don't get promoted that is beyond naive.

There is absolutely no,repeat NO guarantee that the opportuntity will present itself again next season.

Witness Reading and Sheffield Wed - play - off places last year - this year miles off it, and neither made any changes that weakened them.

The attitude of some on here that next year we will be stronger and be in a better position to get auto promotion boils my pixx.

This season 2 of the relegated teams have never even flirted with the top 6, regardless of who comes down there is a good chance that 2 at least, will be contenders. Add those to the ones that miss out this time round and you have a good few in the mix.

You can also add to that a 'surprise package.

I could of course be totally wrong - I hope I am.

We had a real chance this year and we fxxked it up.

A key point of getting promoted is the £120m + - get promoted and maybe get relegated BUT that money really helps to build the club and move towards self sustainability.

Out of likes  but 100 % in agreement.

Carpe Diem

[BTRFTG]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

If memory serves me correct...LJ said he played Walsh instead of GoN, because he said we are a Club that's now wanting to give youngsters a chance, experience and pathway. Which should make us stronger for next season.

Pack I believe he said he rested for the Millwall game.

Whether fans agree to it or not, that's the Club we now are.

If that's remotely true then WeeLee alone shoulders the blame for Saturday's fiasco. It also supports the theory that our management have already written this season off.

We get the same points for beating Brentford as Millwall and at the sharp end of the season there's no hiding place. As is,  Millwall's even more academic Saturday.

Once Smith got himself needlessly booked ( another trait that's crept in under WeeLee) we were non-competitive in the centre, were shipping ground at will and Walsh was as useful as a chocolate teapot. Keeping the kid on to make error after error and have the crowd write him off, that's not experience that's cruelty.

It also makes no sense saying Pack was being 'rested' as from my vantage, looking straight down the tunnel, he covered more ground and expended more energy than most on the park in possibly the most vigorous exercise routine I've ever witnessed. For those of a certain age he was throwing more shapes than Tony Manero overdosing on the Bee Gees.

[Major Isewater]

57 minutes ago, spudski said:

If memory serves me correct...LJ said he played Walsh instead of GoN, because he said we are a Club that's now wanting to give youngsters a chance, experience and pathway. Which should make us stronger for next season.

Pack I believe he said he rested for the Millwall game.

Whether fans agree to it or not, that's the Club we now are.

Then why sign experienced players who then don't get a game ?

GON has been in this type of situation more than once in his career, I would have thought that would be an advantage for the side .

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

If memory serves me correct...LJ said he played Walsh instead of GoN, because he said we are a Club that's now wanting to give youngsters a chance, experience and pathway. Which should make us stronger for next season.

Pack I believe he said he rested for the Millwall game.

Whether fans agree to it or not, that's the Club we now are.

Then why sign experienced players who then don't get a game ?

GON has been in this type of situation more than once in his career, I would have thought that would be an advantage for the side .

Echo ...

[JoeAman08]

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Too many players , a good point but the problem at the beginning of the season was the change in loan  rules.

The new rules are difficult to adhere to and means on any matchday hundreds of good pros are kicking their heels and not a football.

Well thought out Plan to keep the big clubs at an advantage.

Disaster for the many.

 

It is a learn as you go scenario. My personal view is to keep our young players around in our presumably better facilities and better coaching to play when needed. At least not loan out so many. My fear is some “proven” player with 2 years left on his deal gets played because of the salary he is paid. For me the likes of Hegeler, GON, Taylor, Woodrow, Kent and diony are unneccessary because we have Morrell, Vyner, moore, engvall, Hinds, McCoulskey, Eliasson and Smith on the books. Keep a solid 2 per XI but after that use the youth. 

[Kingswood Robin]

7 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

Sunderland paid millions. That's going well for them.

Reading paid millions. That's going well for them.

Birmingham paid millions. That's going well for them.

Norwich City paid millions. That's going well for them.

Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forest and QPR all paid out more than us. That's going well for them.

===========================================================

Which one of those clubs won't get into the Premier League, Again, before we get there?

The recruitment in January was absolutely dire. All we ever hear is how difficult it is in January. You can only recruit in 2 periods in the year, and January is one of them. They've just got to get on with it. Football is all about money. It just cost me a fortune to renew my families season tickets. We've paid up, now they need to go and spend it. It's time we had OUR day in the sun.

[BCFC Rich]

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

And what would you say to Djuric ? 

 

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

ti si velika gomila

Not to his face, you wouldn't! 

 

Because he's so tall! Maybe if he was kneeling down.

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

 

Not to his face, you wouldn't! 

 

Because he's so tall! Maybe if he was kneeling down.

I’m hoping that it actually translates as I think it should !!!

[BCFC Rich]

I think for once the polarized views on here may actually be representative of the fanbase as a whole and even to some extent the feelings of the players. At the extremes, you have a group of people who feel the season has been wasted and this was our best chance for promotion. On the other end a group of people who recognize the season as being good progress for the overall project and are happy to see us do significantly better than last season. The key thing with these polarized views is one already assumes that promotion is lost and the other is more relaxed about whether it's achieved.  When in actual fact it is still there for the taking right now - If you apply these same thoughts to the players then it's easy to see why performances have been flatter as has the atmosphere at the games. 

If everyone could unite behind the fact that promotion is still very much on the table we could push forward and have a decent chance in the playoffs. We shouldn't be settling yet or righting the season off. 

[cidered abroad]

6 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

If that’s the case then I’d rather never get to the Prem to be honest, the Sky propaganda machine has for years pumped it down everyone’s throats that the Prem is the best league in the world, blah blah blah, and there is a whole generation now who believe it and can’t remember what football was like before.

If the criteria for the Prem being the best league is they screw fans over with outrageous ticket prices, Sky subscription fees, shirt prices etc whilst paying bang average players a fortune then I guess it is, but why would anyone want to conform to that?

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see City playing the top teams at Ashton Gate, the Man Utd game was great, but not at all costs.  I would much rather produce our own players and have a team of local lads in the Champ, than sell out getting to the Prem, and no youngsters get a chance at all, and we end up with a team of either Prem journeyman or more dodgy foreign players!  

I can't give you a like because, while I accept all the negatives that you state about the Premium, if we are going to be content with second tier football, the club will slowly die. City would be doing the same as most clubs in the Rugby Championship - treating the second division as their first. 

I know there will be drawbacks and we may well get slaughtered more often than not but I had four years of First Division with City and loved every minute. To be able to see the top players in our stadium, to appreciate their quality and ours as well. To accept when we lost to a better side and above all the highs when we were the better side. Beating Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool cannot be matched by winning against the Burtons and Rotherhams. 

[22A]

21 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

With all due respect you completely and utterly miss the point.

IF, there is a deliberate plan by the club to ensure we don't get promoted that is beyond naive.

There is absolutely no,repeat NO guarantee that the opportuntity will present itself again next season.

Witness Reading and Sheffield Wed - play - off places last year - this year miles off it, and neither made any changes that weakened them.

The attitude of some on here that next year we will be stronger and be in a better position to get auto promotion boils my pixx.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate here; forty years ago my Uncle claimed then that City did not want promotion in the 74/75 season for some financial reason, (couldn't afford it was one suggestion), but geared up for 75-76.

[Bazooka Joe]

14 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I think for once the polarized views on here may actually be representative of the fanbase as a whole and even to some extent the feelings of the players. At the extremes, you have a group of people who feel the season has been wasted and this was our best chance for promotion. On the other end a group of people who recognize the season as being good progress for the overall project and are happy to see us do significantly better than last season. The key thing with these polarized views is one already assumes that promotion is lost and the other is more relaxed about whether it's achieved.  When in actual fact it is still there for the taking right now - If you apply these same thoughts to the players then it's easy to see why performances have been flatter as has the atmosphere at the games. 

If everyone could unite behind the fact that promotion is still very much on the table we could push forward and have a decent chance in the playoffs. We shouldn't be settling yet or righting the season off. 

Yeh, but there ain't no guarantee that will happen.

So what they gonna say if/when it all goes pear-shaped yet again?

[ScottishRed]

9 hours ago, joeyb said:

How can you say for sure that the long term plan isn't working. Since SL announced the infamous 5 pillars, I think the year of our relegation to L1:

• We had a poor season in transition in L1 but finished mid-table
• Won the L1 title and JPT with a number of young players, many of which are the core of this very team
• Survived in the Championship, with LJ now in charge - known as a progressive upcoming manager with previous history with the club
• A mixed and tough season in the Championship where we started well but tailed off massively - still surviving in the Champ
• Finally this season making a challenge at the right end of the Championship for the first time in decade. Add a memorable league cup run to that. And it's still not over

How you can say that a long term plan isn't in place beggars belief.

Please not the " up and coming manager" nonsense again.

There a quite a few of those who have a genuine claim to that description and have had a lot less support and resource than LJ.

Neil Harris and Alex Neil for a start.

This up and coming stuff is MA spin to justify the appointment nothing more.

LJ may well become a good manager but he has proved NOTHING yet.

[spudski]

5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Then why sign experienced players who then don't get a game ?

GON has been in this type of situation more than once in his career, I would have thought that would be an advantage for the side .

Echo ...

He's been injured long term...he's now 34. I'd rather have, Pack, Smith or Walsh over GoN...purely on the fact I'm thinking long term.

What annoys me Major...is people keep saying play this player, play that player...like it's some board game based on previous stats.

No one knows how they perform.

What do you say if GoN was played and he had a howler...how do you back your theory up?

Lj is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

He see's them and training etc,etc.

You can hardly expect a 34 yo to come back from injury and instantly make an impact.

You can imagine if LJ picked him and he was a nightmare...fans would be on his back saying 'what was he thinking, he isn't fit or ready'.

It's futile mate...to keep saying play this player etc.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

Playing Devil's Advocate here; forty years ago my Uncle claimed then that City did not want promotion in the 74/75 season for some financial reason, (couldn't afford it was one suggestion), but geared up for 75-76.

Ashton out