Damned if he doesn't, damned if he does.

[RedNight]

I don't want this turning into a spat about LJ.

But he is criticised when he doesn't shut up shop and portect a lead.

And today fans are going for his throat for doing exactly that.

People saying Johnson doesn't learn from his mistakes. Well he obviously learnt from the Sunderland game. Because today at 4-2 he looked to protect a lead, which he didn't against Sunderland (which fans were outraged by).

Can everyone just take step back from there Johnson agenda (wether you love him or hate him), and realise that we lost that game because of individual errors. 

I find it absolutely mental that once again the players are going some what under the radar after some dreadful mistakes today. 

Just a side note, when we changed formation, I thought we played some scintillating football and some of the best I've seen this year. But we were ridiculously poor at the back today. 

Anyway, this isn't a for or against Johnson thread. So please don't make it one 

[havanatopia]

Johnson has failed to manage a lead whether he continues to go for it or defend it... That is why he is, currently, the damned, period.

[windmillhillred]

10 minutes ago, RedNight said:

I don't want this turning into a spat about LJ.

But he is criticised when he doesn't shut up shop and portect a lead.

And today fans are going for his throat for doing exactly that.

People saying Johnson doesn't learn from his mistakes. Well he obviously learnt from the Sunderland game. Because today at 4-2 he looked to protect a lead, which he didn't against Sunderland (which fans were outraged by).

Can everyone just take step back from there Johnson agenda (wether you love him or hate him), and realise that we lost that game because of individual errors. 

I find it absolutely mental that once again the players are going some what under the radar after some dreadful mistakes today. 

Just a side note, when we changed formation, I thought we played some scintillating football and some of the best I've seen this year. But we were ridiculously poor at the back today. 

Anyway, this isn't a for or against Johnson thread. So please don't make it one 

Interesting and well argued point. For Hull I've seen people criticisong him before for being too defensive at 4-2 and for being too cavalier. Which just gies to show that we all see the game differently (and perhaps don't know quite as much about football as we might like to think...)

What he does need to take some responsibility for, though, is the inability to hold leads. What happened yesterday, against Sunderland (and to a lesser extent, against Leeds) shouldn't be happening. Added to the rabbit in the headlights team we saw last year when defending a lead it does add up to a problem, and the buck does stop with him.

[MarkRed!]

I have a season ticket but have not been to many games this season. I used to go to all home and away. Frustrated with the club and LJ. I haven't posted for a while. I am totally opposed to LJ and he should have been fired last season. That gents is my starting point... Thus you will be surprised to hear that LJ has exceeded expectations In my view. A top 10 finish, great cup run, in the promotion hunt until the last week's of the season. Yes, we have bottled it but where did folk think we would get. I think and it pains me to say it that LJ has done a good job. The team has improved and he now has to build on it. It is frustrating to see our form dip but the season must be viewed as a whole and for me we have progressed. We need to recycle the playing staff and get rid of Fielding, Oneill etc some good signings in the summer and we go again. COYR.

[AshtonGreat]

Sorry, but I just watched the highlights and those last three goals were more than just individual errors. We were wide open at the back for all three. I think LJ's idea of shutting up shop is somewhat different to Jose Mourinho's.

[Spoons]

33 minutes ago, RedNight said:

I don't want this turning into a spat about LJ.

But he is criticised when he doesn't shut up shop and portect a lead.

And today fans are going for his throat for doing exactly that.

People saying Johnson doesn't learn from his mistakes. Well he obviously learnt from the Sunderland game. Because today at 4-2 he looked to protect a lead, which he didn't against Sunderland (which fans were outraged by).

Can everyone just take step back from there Johnson agenda (wether you love him or hate him), and realise that we lost that game because of individual errors. 

I find it absolutely mental that once again the players are going some what under the radar after some dreadful mistakes today. 

Just a side note, when we changed formation, I thought we played some scintillating football and some of the best I've seen this year. But we were ridiculously poor at the back today. 

Anyway, this isn't a for or against Johnson thread. So please don't make it one 

You don't concede 5 goals in a game and then blame it all on individual errors?

He insists on picking a keeper who can't kick or command a box then gifts hull two goals, that's not individual errors it's poor management.

Pisano looked knackered after 60 minutes should have been taken off then purely down to lack of energy finds himself out of position for their 5th goal.

The individual errors were completely avoidable.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

3 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Sorry, but I just watched the highlights and those last three goals were more than just individual errors. We were wide open at the back for all three. I think LJ's idea of shutting up shop is somewhat different to Jose Mourinho's.

Do you think our defenders had anything to do with those goals?  You don’t mention them.  No tactics can prevent an opposition side attacking, but defenders are there to defend.  Shocking errors by Fielding, Smith and Pisano which no amount of tactics could have done anything about.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 minutes ago, Spoons said:

You don't concede 5 goals in a game and then blame it all on individual errors?

He insists on picking a keeper who can't kick or command a box then gifts hull two goals, that's not individual errors it's poor management.

Pisano looked knackered after 60 minutes should have been taken off then purely down to lack of energy finds himself out of position for their 5th goal.

The individual errors were completely avoidable.

Sorry, but i think that’s nonsense.  Players have to be accountable and yesterday we conceded unnecessary goals because of individual errors, not because of tactics.

[Spoons]

2 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Sorry, but i think that’s nonsense.  Players have to be accountable and yesterday we conceded unnecessary goals because of individual errors, not because of tactics.

So consistently FF is picked and under performs ? Surely LJ sees this and drops him? No he picks him time after time and we are all surprised that yet again he costs us the game.

[spudski]

I thought we played some superb football going forward yesterday and it was a thoroughly entertaining game.

I didn't see anything drastic that LJ could be responsible for on the pitch.

I did witness mistakes by players that led to goals. Nothing to do with set up or the way we were playing.

It's been a learning curve this season.

We've seen what players can do it, we have seen what players are inconsistent, and we can see which players can't do it at the level required to improve.

There will be changes in the summer for sure.

The goals came from Individual errors...really poor game by FF in all aspects. And players switching off.

Absolutely nothing to do with set up.

[AshtonGreat]

5 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Do you think our defenders had anything to do with those goals?  You don’t mention them.  No tactics can prevent an opposition side attacking, but defenders are there to defend.  Shocking errors by Fielding, Smith and Pisano which no amount of tactics could have done anything about.

I agree the players should also be held accountable, but if the manager had got his tactics right, they wouldn't have constantly sliced through our defence like butter. You're right, Hull could've still attacked, but if we'd parked the proverbial bus, they'd have found it very hard to find any space. We gave them acres to attack with pace, and of course that will increase the likelihood of errors.

[havanatopia]

19 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Sorry, but I just watched the highlights and those last three goals were more than just individual errors. We were wide open at the back for all three. I think LJ's idea of shutting up shop is somewhat different to Jose Mourinho's.

Every time I see highlights of City what nearly always strikes me is how open we defend; why is that? I think the entire back line is culpable but I see it more often with Bryan, Baker and Wright and now Pisano. Baker yesterday was just standing off their players non stop. This has to be one of three things;

1. They are coached this way

2. They are not very good

3. They don't care.  

I think it has to be one of those but I am no football coach. 

[Spoons]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

I thought we played some superb football going forward yesterday and it was a thoroughly entertaining game.

I didn't see anything drastic that LJ could be responsible for on the pitch.

I did witness mistakes by players that led to goals. Nothing to do with set up or the way we were playing.

It's been a learning curve this season.

We've seen what players can do it, we have seen what players are inconsistent, and we can see which players can't do it at the level required to improve.

There will be changes in the summer for sure.

The goals came from Individual errors...really poor game by FF in all aspects. And players switching off.

Absolutely nothing to do with set up.

Don't question the set up. I question the starting line up and the substitutions.

Enjoyed the game in a weird way. But having just watched it back.. it wasn't good viewing.

Also made worse by what the extra 2 points could have done for us.

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I agree the players should also be held accountable, but if the manager had got his tactics right, they wouldn't have constantly sliced through our defence like butter. You're right, Hull could've still attacked, but if we'd parked the proverbial bus, they'd have found it very hard to find any space. We gave them acres to attack with pace, and of course that will increase the likelihood of errors.

We set up like any other team would.

How many times have you seen us in the past, park the bus and let teams come on to us, only to concede....it happens all too often.

We played the correct way...we played to our strengths.

The fact is, some players aren't good enough, and are inconsistent. They make mistakes. Yesterday FF had an absolute howler...we would have won that game comfortably if it wasn't for his performance and some individual errors.

We still sit with an outside chance of the play offs surprisingly, which just goes to show how many other teams in this league are also inconsistent and prone to mistakes.

You can only play the players who you've got fit and have been on form and who you can rely on, and then hope they'll play to the best of their ability.

Apart from not playing FF...how do you stop that happening. It's football...they are human.

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Don't question the set up. I question the starting line up and the substitutions.

Enjoyed the game in a weird way. But having just watched it back.. it wasn't good viewing.

Also made worse by what the extra 2 points could have done for us.

That starting line up is arguably our best on paper.

We saw how good they are going forward...it was just really poor individual errors when defending.

Pato not tracking his man, certain defenders switching off, and FF having a howler. Nothing wrong with the subs.

[AshtonGreat]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

We set up like any other team would.

How many times have you seen us in the past, park the bus and let teams come on to us, only to concede....it happens all too often.

We played the correct way...we played to our strengths.

The fact is, some players aren't good enough, and are inconsistent. They make mistakes. Yesterday FF had an absolute howler...we would have won that game comfortably if it wasn't for his performance and some individual errors.

We still sit with an outside chance of the play offs surprisingly, which just goes to show how many other teams in this league are also inconsistent and prone to mistakes.

You can only play the players who you've got fit and have been on form and who you can rely on, and then hope they'll play to the best of their ability.

Apart from not playing FF...how do you stop that happening. It's football...they are human.

Saying 'we played to our strengths' is another way of saying we only have one way of playing; there is no plan B.

There's only so much you can use the 'fitness and form' excuse before serious questions have to be asked about the manager and backroom staff. He had an opportunity to strengthen in January, he utterly squandered it. 

[Spoons]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

That starting line up is arguably our best on paper.

We saw how good they are going forward...it was just really poor individual errors when defending.

Pato not tracking his man, certain defenders switching off, and FF having a howler. Nothing wrong with the subs.

Simply wouldn't start FF. I like the set up and rest of starting line up.

Odowda right to come off but we shouldn't have switched bobby to the left.

Also Pisano should have been subbed 65/70 minutes. I would have brought on Lloyd Kelly to left back and shifted Joe to right back. Something LJ has done previously.

I'm interested to see if FF starts the next game?

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Saying 'we played to our strengths' is another way of saying we only have one way of playing; there is no plan B.

There's only so much you can use the 'fitness and form' excuse before serious questions have to be asked about the manager and backroom staff. He had an opportunity to strengthen in January, he utterly squandered it. 

How do you know we squandered the January window? You know the budget and contract details and who was available, who we could afford and who we approached and who wanted to come here?

3 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Simply wouldn't start FF. I like the set up and rest of starting line up.

Odowda right to come off but we shouldn't have switched bobby to the left.

Also Pisano should have been subbed 65/70 minutes. I would have brought on Lloyd Kelly to left back and shifted Joe to right back. Something LJ has done previously.

I'm interested to see if FF starts the next game?

All very well in hindsight...but on a 'normal' day FF would have saved those shots. We would have been celebrating a 5-3 win maybe and saying what an entertaining game it was.

[Kibs]

38 minutes ago, spudski said:

I didn't see anything drastic that LJ could be responsible for on the pitch.

Really?! That surprised me from someone like yourself who see’s so much.

THE major problem I see is the mentality of the players and basic game management. Just completely killing the flow of the game as many teams do in this division.

That was all a problem 12-18 months ago when we were throwing 2 and 3 goal leads away, conceding late goals. And it’s still a problem now.

He hasn’t sorted that out. He’s had plenty of time to do so. 

I don’t need to tell you that Football management, or sports team management in general, is much more than how you set them up, team selection, patterns of play and technical coaching etc, etc.....

Forget the ridiculous number of players he has signed that don’t ever play. His major failing ever since he entered management seems to be his inability to re-instill the belief and confidence that the players need in difficult times, to get them to run through a brick wall for you. Its just managing ‘people’. It’s such a key part of management, and he doesn’t seem to have it, sadly.

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Saying 'we played to our strengths' is another way of saying we only have one way of playing; there is no plan B.

There's only so much you can use the 'fitness and form' excuse before serious questions have to be asked about the manager and backroom staff. He had an opportunity to strengthen in January, he utterly squandered it. 

Though I'm not sure I agree about January- lots of variables, e.g. budget etc, I fully agree on the lack of a Plan B...I thought this ever since August tbh- saw worrying signs in some early games then, with regards Plan A- namely its robustness in the 2nd half of games.

His ability to turn the tide, especially when the pressure is on, also is a major worry for me.

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

There's only so much you can use the 'fitness and form' excuse before serious questions have to be asked about the manager and backroom staff. He had an opportunity to strengthen in January, he utterly squandered it. 

That's an old chestnut and been done to death on here.

That said Ashton said at Senior Reds this week that the club much prefers to do its shopping in the summer and work ihas been underway in preparation for the upcoming window.

January is not a good time to buy or sell.

The EFL cup run hugely raised our clubs profile nationally and particularly in the SBC and other clubs realised that we were a threat and became very reluctant to deal with us - one disadvantage of the cup run along with the fact that other teams started to  line up against us differently and that was a big factor in our slump in form.

Unfortunately LJ and his assistants  couldn't come up with an effective plan b.

[AshtonGreat]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

How do you know we squandered the January window? You know the budget and contract details and who was available, who we could afford and who we approached and who wanted to come here?

All very well in hindsight...but on a 'normal' day FF would have saved those shots. We would have been celebrating a 5-3 win maybe and saying what an entertaining game it was.

Ok let's assume that the players and/or the budget wasn't available. Why bother settling for three players who don't fit? (One of which is no more a professional footballer than you or me)

[spudski]

6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Ok let's assume that the players and/or the budget wasn't available. Why bother settling for three players who don't fit? (One of which is no more a professional footballer than you or me)

Because Walsh is a good player and is one for the future...Kent has been good at clubs before, and so has Diony...they were both no risk options.

As for not fitting in...you ask for a plan B....LJ is bringing in players to play different roles when needed.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That's an old chestnut and been done to death on here.

That said Ashton said at Senior Reds this week that the club much prefers to do its shopping in the summer and work ihas been underway in preparation for the upcoming window.

January is not a good time to buy or sell.

The EFL cup run hugely raised our clubs profile nationally and particularly in the SBC and other clubs realised that we were a threat and became very reluctant to deal with us - one disadvantage of the cup run along with the fact that other teams started to  line up against us differently and that was a big factor in our slump in form.

Unfortunately LJ and his assistants  couldn't come up with an effective plan b.

 

Did Ashton say this

Or is this a theory of yours ?

[Curr Avon]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

Because Walsh is a good player and is one for the future...Kent has been good at clubs before, and so has Diony...they were both no risk options.

As for not fitting in...you ask for a plan B....LJ is bringing in players to play different roles when needed.

 

Walsh is one for the future? That's not what an excitable LJ said when the youngster signed on January 5th;

"He's a brilliant player, who can come in and compete immediately. Hopefully he can improve and he improves us."

[ScottishRed]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Did Ashton say this

Or is this a theory of yours ?

Beat me too it.

If it was MA that said that it is a daming inditement of the coaching team.

[BobBobSuperBob]

 

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

Because Walsh is a good player and is one for the future...Kent has been good at clubs before, and so has Diony...they were both no risk options.

As for not fitting in...you ask for a plan B....LJ is bringing in players to play different roles when needed.

 

I’m not sure Walsh thought he was getting out of Everton to become a development player here , and one who can’t even make the bench at the moment

[Curr Avon]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

I’m not sure Walsh thought he was getting out of Everton to become a development player here , and one who can’t even make the bench at the moment

"He's a brilliant player, who can come in and compete immediately. Hopefully he can improve and he improves us."

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Did Ashton say this

Or is this a theory of yours ?

I wasn't there on Thursday but yesterday was chatting with a guy from our senior reds table who was there and he relayed what MA had to say. 

So.....it's second hand but no reason to think that Pete would have made it up.

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Do you think our defenders had anything to do with those goals?  You don’t mention them.  No tactics can prevent an opposition side attacking, but defenders are there to defend.  Shocking errors by Fielding, Smith and Pisano which no amount of tactics could have done anything about.

Nor unfortunately can Johnson.