Fao the itk Bristol Citys philosophy

[Trueredsupporter]

@spudski etc much is made of Bristol City having a project , a big plan, a playing philosophy and that all elements of Bristol City are working in unison towards ths big picture. Fairs fair much is made of this by Lee Johnson and Ashton.

As a supporter of forty five years I was much in favour of this idea of Bristol City finally working towards a long term after years of making it all up.

last season Lee Johnson again started well and then went into a free fall which was received from the football on the pitch went from stability to seemingly making it up each week to eventual stability and the team selection and tactics becoming stable and results taking an upturn.

I thought this was part of the plan. Mr Johnson was going through this plan and  windows and putting in place what he wanted.

This season the team started off at some rate. the football made sense, the football at times was brilliant. short passing and high press. 

Come January in came signings after what we are told are lengthy processes and these signings simply did not fit the football played. Lee Johnson again started to chop and change tactics and style away from this supposed footballing side. Results again without stability have gone south. Citys plan B of wack a big player up top hit that player with long balls is taking over plan A if it really existed at all. Frankie Fielding meanwhile can be expected to hit balls to the opposition and into stands often.

What football and identity is this? what philosophy is this? what style of football will we be playing next season? fans ask this now. well I am feeling a bit mugged off not because i want results now but because i cannot see this identity this project this big plan.

Millions are being wasted again on players. Scandinavians Bristol City could damage your carear keep away!!!  

how many transfer windows do you need to find a leader? how many transfer windows and years do you need to put your project identity and all these buzzwords into the first team? a first team that is still half full of players signed by others!!

It looks like the emporers new clothes. a load of bollocks.

City clearly have improved points wise but the above is my big doubt. So could the itk explain how this works to me or better still point me to where this philosophy this plan is written down for others to read like fans to buy into and support ??.

I dont think wanting to know more about how this future works is unreasonable. I do want to know and understand more!.

[Robbored]

Despite being a supporter for 45 years you still don't get it?  Do the words "long term plan" tell you anything? 

"Millions wasted on players" - who exactly?  Do you not remember the huge profit on Kodjia when City laughed all the way to the bank? 

I daresay that City will make another huge profit on Reid this summer.

As for style of football - we saw that the first half of the season. High pressing, high tempo. Unfortunately City weren't able to maintain that all season - who knows why? Lots of speculation but no definitive answer.

As a supporter of 45 years you should appreciate that the club is as healthy now as it's ever been and I'm qualified to say that because myI first game at AG was in 1967.

 

[Trueredsupporter]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Despite being a supporter for 45 years you still don't get it?   

"

 

If i did I would not be asking.  I asked if those who knew more (no problem loads will ) than i do could explain how this philosophy works or point me to where i can read about it. appreciate the first might be hard and lengthy but the second is not so. you go on to do neither.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

@spudski etc much is made of Bristol City having a project , a big plan, a playing philosophy and that all elements of Bristol City are working in unison towards ths big picture. Fairs fair much is made of this by Lee Johnson and Ashton.

As a supporter of forty five years I was much in favour of this idea of Bristol City finally working towards a long term after years of making it all up.

last season Lee Johnson again started well and then went into a free fall which was received from the football on the pitch went from stability to seemingly making it up each week to eventual stability and the team selection and tactics becoming stable and results taking an upturn.

I thought this was part of the plan. Mr Johnson was going through this plan and  windows and putting in place what he wanted.

This season the team started off at some rate. the football made sense, the football at times was brilliant. short passing and high press. 

Come January in came signings after what we are told are lengthy processes and these signings simply did not fit the football played. Lee Johnson again started to chop and change tactics and style away from this supposed footballing side. Results again without stability have gone south. Citys plan B of wack a big player up top hit that player with long balls is taking over plan A if it existed at. Frankie Fielding meanwhile can be expected to hit ball to the opposition and into stands often.,

What football and identity is this? what philosophy is this? What style of football will we be playing next season? fans ask this now. well I am feeling a bit mugged off not because i want results now but because i cannot see this identity this project this plan.

Millions are being wasted again on players. Scandinavians Bristol City could damage your carear keep away!!!  

how many transfer windows do you need to find a leader? how many transfer windows and years do you need to put your project identity and all these buzzwords into the first team? a first team that is still half full of players signed by others!!

It looks like the emporers new clothes. a load of bollocks.

City clearly have improved points wise but the above is my big doubt. So could the itk explain how this works to me or better still point me to where this philosophy this plan is written down form others to read like fans to buy into and support ??.

I dont think wanting to know more about how this future works is unreasonable.

I'm not ITK...but as you have named me at the beginning I'll try to explain how I see it.

We have made a plan/project, both in how we are going to run the club, how we will recruit and sell, do it within budget, trying to make the club self sustaining and having a coach (LJ) that will work within the confines of those plans set out by the board and owner. He in turn will recruit people willing to work within those confines.

We've recruited for now, recruited many for the near future (out on loan...either to play for us or develop and sell on at a profit). We have also tried to find a pathway for the Academy and fast tracked them, by shipping out to play men's football, and moved the younger players U19's etc, up to the U23's. ( the U23 system is flawed in this country imo...hence City shipping them out on loan )

That's the simple explanation.

Like all plans at every Club, not everything is perfect, mistakes are made, big learning curves made, and hopefully learnt from. Just because we have set out a plan...it doesn't mean we are going to be promoted straight away. That's the aim...but it's little steps. We've only been in the league a few seasons....we have no right to expect play offs or promotion so soon, especially when you look at some many other better off and more established clubs in this league.

Like all Clubs that do well...which we have, changes will be made. Players will move on, others will come in.

Like all styles of football...our high pressing game at the start of the season was phenomenal. However...with so many injuries, it was unsustainable and a different approach was tried and tested which hasn't always worked.

My own personal opinion, is that the work rate needed to play the high press over a whole season, needs a deep squad of players, of equal ability, that would rotate and play when needed. We haven't got that yet, and with the injuries, it had a massive effect on our performances.

I think we will have learned from this, and we won't be playing with such high intensity in the future. I looked at how we mixed it up against Hull recently, and I think that's how we will try to play in the future, but obviously with better defending and less individual errors. We played short sharp passing at times...pressed at times, but also went more direct on occasion. I think maybe this will be our future. All speculation on my part though...based on who we've brought in.

Whilst the recent form and results have been disappointing...I always remember we have been a traditional top div 3 team for many years...bobbing about between 2 and 3.

I look at the likes of Derby and see how they come so near and yet so far, season after season...building, but making mistakes. Others with far more experience in this league, all doing the same as us or worse.

A few seasons up...imo, we have no right to expect promotion when compared to so many in this league. We've spent...but spent to catch up with others in this league. To give us a fighting chance in the future.

God help us all if were to end up like an Ipswich, Forest, Derby etc and be knocking about for years in this league.

I just wish more fans would see that it isn't easy in this league and that we are far better off than many below us. Which is remarkable considering.

It's a fun league...why certain fans can't just enjoy it, and the ride, warts and all is beyond me.

Nothing is perfect, nothing is guaranteed...but imo, this is the first time in my years of following, that we actually have some sort of plan. That imo, is a massive step.

[Robbored]

Top post Spudski. Very well explained indeed.

I think you've become my favourite poster............

[Trueredsupporter]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I'm not ITK...but as you have named me at the beginning I'll try to explain how I see it.

We have made a plan/project, both in how we are going to run the club, how we will recruit and sell, do it within budget, trying to make the club self sustaining and having a coach (LJ) that will work within the confines of those plans set out by the board and owner. He in turn will recruit people willing to work within those confines.

We've recruited for now, recruited many for the near future (out on loan...either to play for us or develop and sell on at a profit). We have also tried to find a pathway for the Academy and fast tracked them, by shipping out to play men's football, and moved the younger players U19's etc, up to the U23's. ( the U23 system is flawed in this country imo...hence City shipping them out on loan )

That's the simple explanation.

Like all plans at every Club, not everything is perfect, mistakes are made, big learning curves made, and hopefully learnt from. Just because we have set out a plan...it doesn't mean we are going to be promoted straight away. That's the aim...but it's little steps. We've only been in the league a few seasons....we have no right to expect play offs or promotion so soon, especially when you look at some many other better off and more established clubs in this league.

Like all Clubs that do well...which we have, changes will be made. Players will move on, others will come in.

Like all styles of football...our high pressing game at the start of the season was phenomenal. However...with so many injuries, it was unsustainable and a different approach was tried and tested which hasn't always worked.

My own personal opinion, is that the work rate needed to play the high press over a whole season, needs a deep squad of players, of equal ability, that would rotate and play when needed. We haven't got that yet, and with the injuries, it had a massive effect on our performances.

I think we will have learned from this, and we won't be playing with such high intensity in the future. I looked at how we mixed it up against Hull recently, and I think that's how we will try to play in the future, but obviously with better defending and less individual errors. We played short sharp passing at times...pressed at times, but also went more direct on occasion. I think maybe this will be our future. All speculation on my part though...based on who we've brought in.

Whilst the recent form and results have been disappointing...I always remember we have been a traditional top div 3 team for many years...bobbing about between 2 and 3.

I look at the likes of Derby and see how they come so near and yet so far, season after season...building, but making mistakes. Others with far more experience in this league, all doing the same as us or worse.

A few seasons up...imo, we have no right to expect promotion when compared to so many in this league. We've spent...but spent to catch up with others in this league. To give us a fighting chance in the future.

God help us all if were to end up like an Ipswich, Forest, Derby etc and be knocking about for years in this league.

I just wish more fans would see that it isn't easy in this league and that we are far better off than many below us. Which is remarkable considering.

It's a fun league...why certain fans can't just enjoy it, and the ride, warts and all is beyond me.

Nothing is perfect, nothing is guaranteed...but imo, this is the first time in my years of following, that we actually have some sort of plan. That imo, is a massive step.

I don’t expect City to win each seek or get promotion. My hope and expectation is similar to yours and that season season to City are working towards a long term.

I welcome the idea of a modern coach and club structure. Here I do not think all elements are joining up.

I think I agree with you about Citys football before Jan in that it was not planned. When players came back and loans came in out it went. The playing style then now looks to be part due to lack of players and injury not the long term plan.  I base that too on who was brought in. That brilliant football was not part of a joined up plan. Almost an accident. made up as he went along. football since does look made up as he goes along. I really really hope I am wrong.

Recruitment. Its been dreadful. Yes there is a method there but fans should expect more than being told there are no leaders in the team, they were not doing as I said if its planned and part of the project taking  8-9 months a player (quoted timescale) there should be a leaders in every 30 and more of LJ/Ashtons signings in in the first team. This team is Lee Johnsons, no excuses here. Recruitment should be much better and is yet to be part of this joined up project.

Academy teams U19 u23’s in modern set ups play to a style preparing them for the first team. According to those watching these teams Lee Johnson team is playing at times very differently. Not joined up football!!

Thanks for the reply.  I liked your post but it didnt really tell me anything. My crap grammar apart I could have written similar with my own speculation instead of knowing.

[Olé]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

"Millions wasted on players" - who exactly?

Unfortunately as several threads in the last month illustrated, this is probably the most pointlessly contentious part of the Johnson-era debate as no one can really argue it either way, so your challenge here is as valid as the original statement was. You're both right.

On one hand there are plenty of current players that have shown zero return on investment, on the other hand we know that many were players for the future and the club has yet to write the investments off, so we can't either. Only in time will we know who was right.

But to keep it topical, if Eliasson doesn't start the next two dead rubbers (or even better we recall Moore/Engvall to do the same) I know which way I'd lean on this one.

[View from the Dolman]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

But to keep it topical, if Eliasson doesn't start the next two dead rubbers (or even better we recall Moore/Engvall to do the same) I know which way I'd lean on this one.

We can't recall Moore or Engvall under the new(ish) loan rules.

['Orns]

27 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Thanks for the reply.  I liked your post but it didnt really tell me anything. My crap grammar apart I could have written similar with my own speculation instead of knowing.

I don't know what you are expecting then. You asked a question, pointed at Spud, he answered. If the answer matches your own (with better grammar) then maybe you're more ITK than you ever thought

Enjoy the ride. She'll build you up, and knock you down and kick you in the balls whilst you're there. But you can't swap her. It is what it is, there is no guaranteed way of getting to the PL. A bit of luck goes a long way, I'm not sure if we've put a bid in for that just yet

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

As for style of football - we saw that the first half of the season. High pressing, high tempo. Unfortunately City weren't able to maintain that all season - who knows why? Lots of speculation but no definitive answer.

 

It cannot be maintained if the intention is not too.

Liverpool recruit to intent. Their players phenomenal work rate is part of the requisite skill required in forwards and midfield players to fit their high tempo and pressing in units.  

Bristol City clearly intended (loans indicate direction) from January to work away from that high tempo, high pressing style. 

 

[ooRya]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I'm not ITK...but as you have named me at the beginning I'll try to explain how I see it.

We have made a plan/project, both in how we are going to run the club, how we will recruit and sell, do it within budget, trying to make the club self sustaining and having a coach (LJ) that will work within the confines of those plans set out by the board and owner. He in turn will recruit people willing to work within those confines.

We've recruited for now, recruited many for the near future (out on loan...either to play for us or develop and sell on at a profit). We have also tried to find a pathway for the Academy and fast tracked them, by shipping out to play men's football, and moved the younger players U19's etc, up to the U23's. ( the U23 system is flawed in this country imo...hence City shipping them out on loan )

That's the simple explanation.

Like all plans at every Club, not everything is perfect, mistakes are made, big learning curves made, and hopefully learnt from. Just because we have set out a plan...it doesn't mean we are going to be promoted straight away. That's the aim...but it's little steps. We've only been in the league a few seasons....we have no right to expect play offs or promotion so soon, especially when you look at some many other better off and more established clubs in this league.

Like all Clubs that do well...which we have, changes will be made. Players will move on, others will come in.

Like all styles of football...our high pressing game at the start of the season was phenomenal. However...with so many injuries, it was unsustainable and a different approach was tried and tested which hasn't always worked.

My own personal opinion, is that the work rate needed to play the high press over a whole season, needs a deep squad of players, of equal ability, that would rotate and play when needed. We haven't got that yet, and with the injuries, it had a massive effect on our performances.

I think we will have learned from this, and we won't be playing with such high intensity in the future. I looked at how we mixed it up against Hull recently, and I think that's how we will try to play in the future, but obviously with better defending and less individual errors. We played short sharp passing at times...pressed at times, but also went more direct on occasion. I think maybe this will be our future. All speculation on my part though...based on who we've brought in.

Whilst the recent form and results have been disappointing...I always remember we have been a traditional top div 3 team for many years...bobbing about between 2 and 3.

I look at the likes of Derby and see how they come so near and yet so far, season after season...building, but making mistakes. Others with far more experience in this league, all doing the same as us or worse.

A few seasons up...imo, we have no right to expect promotion when compared to so many in this league. We've spent...but spent to catch up with others in this league. To give us a fighting chance in the future.

God help us all if were to end up like an Ipswich, Forest, Derby etc and be knocking about for years in this league.

I just wish more fans would see that it isn't easy in this league and that we are far better off than many below us. Which is remarkable considering.

It's a fun league...why certain fans can't just enjoy it, and the ride, warts and all is beyond me.

Nothing is perfect, nothing is guaranteed...but imo, this is the first time in my years of following, that we actually have some sort of plan. That imo, is a massive step.

Absolutely, 100% how I see it too.

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It cannot be maintained if the intention is not too.

Liverpool recruit to intent. Their players phenomenal work rate is part of the requisite skill required in forwards and midfield players to fit their high tempo and pressing in units.  

Bristol City clearly intended (loans indicate direction) from January to work away from that high tempo, high pressing style. 

 

So you're saying that the slump in form was down to LJ abandoning the style that was so effective?  

[JoeAman08]

26 minutes ago, Olé said:

Unfortunately as several threads in the last month illustrated, this is probably the most pointlessly contentious part of the Johnson-era debate as no one can really argue it either way, so your challenge here is as valid as the original statement was. You're both right.

On one hand there are plenty of current players that have shown zero return on investment, on the other hand we know that many were players for the future and the club has yet to write the investments off, so we can't either. Only in time will we know who was right.

But to keep it topical, if Eliasson doesn't start the next two dead rubbers (or even better we recall Moore/Engvall to do the same) I know which way I'd lean on this one.

Yep we are very 50/50. Take out January and we recruit well. Take out the summer and we are the worst recruiting team in the country. I have said this many times, when we have time to lay out a list of players and talk to them(in the summer) we tend to do a good job. 

Then in January when we are reacting to a situation(relegation or playoff) we seem to just pluck names out. Of course no one knows for sure about any transfers but January transfers just haven’t really worked out(few squad players). 

I liked how we bought some good young players in the last few seasons but think we need our money elsewhere now. Add to the core with a few 3-5m signings(like Baker and Diedhiou) but instead of the other half of a 10-12m budget on kids(Eliasson, Moore, Engvall) we get another 1-2 3-5m players. Add to the first team and expose the youth slowly off the bench. Get rid of the mid or late 20s fringe players like Wright, GON, Hegeler and Taylor. Don’t get any loans(unless class like Tammy and you can have a good idea) and use the likes of Vyner, Kelly, Walsh, Morrell, Andrews, Hinds, McCoulskey, Eliasson, Moore, O’Leary and Smith off the bench. Not exclusively but after 3-4 top signings it will push players like Pato, Pack and Flint(all examples) to the bench. Meaning you can blend experience and youth on your bench. Not easy but something like this

NEW GK

Pisano New CB Baker Magnusson

Brownhill Smith New CM

COD Fam New LW

Fielding, Pato, Pack, Flint, Kelly, Smith, McCoulskey

Again this is an example but reality is, some of our starters are rotation players in a promotion side. We need more quality 1 through 14. Spend more on that and 15-30 can be the kids. 

[CotswoldRed]

9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

So you're saying that the slump in form was down to LJ abandoning the style that was so effective?  

Or, rather, adopting an ineffective style and doing the basics consistently to a poor level. 

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

So you're saying that the slump in form was down to LJ abandoning the style that was so effective?  

It could be ... But my point was a clear decision was made to alter Bristol City style. To accommodate Famara and Diony the style had to change. They also will not press in the same manner. What was brilliantly effective has to be altered. It is obvious it has to change.

A parallel. Could Bobby Reid work in Liverpool's football. Forget his quality but does he have similar qualities e.g. Intensity and work rate. Now Famara and Diony, or Djuric?  

I hope its clear what I indicate there.

For Bristol City to continue in the manner they did it had to be supported by squad depth and additions in future. This was not in place, or done.

 

[JamesBCFC]

44 minutes ago, Olé said:

Unfortunately as several threads in the last month illustrated, this is probably the most pointlessly contentious part of the Johnson-era debate as no one can really argue it either way, so your challenge here is as valid as the original statement was. You're both right.

On one hand there are plenty of current players that have shown zero return on investment, on the other hand we know that many were players for the future and the club has yet to write the investments off, so we can't either. Only in time will we know who was right.

But to keep it topical, if Eliasson doesn't start the next two dead rubbers (or even better we recall Moore/Engvall to do the same) I know which way I'd lean on this one.

Given we literally cannot recall Moore and Engvall, is it really fair to then make a judgement based on if they get recalled for the two games?

[Major Isewater]

9 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

What an amazing post.  This is what I would like to have said the other day when I was talking about progress. Unfortunately, I'm not as articulate as you.  Well done.   

Is Spudski's first name ' Lawrie ' ? 

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Or, rather, adopting an ineffective style and doing the basics consistently to a poor level. 

You'll have to explain that in more detail CR. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It could be ... But my point was a clear decision was made to alter Bristol City style. To accommodate Famara and Diony the style had to change. They also will not press in the same manner. What was brilliantly effective has to be altered. It is obvious it has to change.

A parallel. Could Bobby Reid work in Liverpool's football. Forget his quality but does he have similar qualities e.g. Intensity and work rate. Now Famara and Diony, or Djuric?  

I hope its clear what I indicate there.

For Bristol City to continue in the manner they did it had to be supported by squad depth and additions in future. This was not in place, or done.

 

Well explained Cowshed. I get what you were getting at now.

You've become my second favourite poster now............

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

It cannot be maintained if the intention is not too.

Liverpool recruit to intent. Their players phenomenal work rate is part of the requisite skill required in forwards and midfield players to fit their high tempo and pressing in units.  

Bristol City clearly intended (loans indicate direction) from January to work away from that high tempo, high pressing style. 

 

I don't think we can say 'Bristol City clearly intended to work away from the high tempo pressing game' due to the direction of the loans.

It might just have been forced upon them, due to budget, injuries, illnesses, who was fit and in form, who was available at no high risk, and what plans we have in place for the summer.

Was it ever our intention to start at the beginning of the season with Pato and Reid up front? Or did that 'experiment' due to circumstance' work out better than we thought?

Take Duric or Famara out of the equation... you still have players in the team that can play with energy and intent. Reid, Pato, Brownhill, Odowda, Bryan and when match fit Pisano, Pack and Smith.

Duric and Famara give us an extra dimension, and different out let, but we can still play with high energy around them, you just aren't going to get them running like Reid and Pato on the high line.

Imo...Walsh was brought in to develop and compete now and for next season. Kent was to cover Odowda...and Diony was a no risk option whilst Taylor was still getting fit.

With the likes of Taylor, GoN, Hegeler, Pisano, Famara, Mags injured for long parts, Pato ill, others carrying knocks, and the likes of Moore, Morrell, Vyner, Kelly, Elliason, Bakinson, Holden, Hinds and Edwards, likely to be pushing for match day squads next season, and Engval, Diony, GoN, Woodrow, Golbourne most likely to be off in the summer amongst others, you aren't going to screw your budget up in January. So many possibilities between now and the start of next season as to who will be playing in the near future.

It's obvious imo, to see that we didn't want to/ or couldn't use up budget we didn't have or know what we are going to have available in the near future.

If we sell some of our better assets, we may have a lot more money to play with in the summer, where we will be able to recruit better for the next season.

Anyone saying 'we ballsed' up' in the January window is wrong in saying that, because we just don't know what circumstances the club are in. It's as simple as that.

I'm sure if money was no object and we could financially do it, then we would have gone out and bought to play the same way.

[Cowshed]

Just now, spudski said:

I don't think we can say 'Bristol City clearly intended to work away from the high tempo pressing game' due to the direction of the loans.

It might just have been forced upon them, due to budget, injuries, illnesses, who was fit and in form, who was available at no high risk, and what plans we have in place for the summer.

Was it ever our intention to start at the beginning of the season with Pato and Reid up front? Or did that 'experiment' due to circumstance' work out better than we thought?

Take Duric or Famara out of the equation... you still have players in the team that can play with energy and intent. Reid, Pato, Brownhill, Odowda, Bryan and when match fit Pisano, Pack and Smith.

Duric and Famara give us an extra dimension, and different out let, but we can still play with high energy around them, you just aren't going to get them running like Reid and Pato on the high line.

Imo...Walsh was brought in to develop and compete now and for next season. Kent was to cover Odowda...and Diony was a no risk option whilst Taylor was still getting fit.

With the likes of Taylor, GoN, Hegeler, Pisano, Famara, Mags injured for long parts, Pato ill, others carrying knocks, and the likes of Moore, Morrell, Vyner, Kelly, Elliason, Bakinson, Holden, Hinds and Edwards, likely to be pushing for match day squads next season, and Engval, Diony, GoN, Woodrow, Golbourne most likely to be off in the summer amongst others, you aren't going to screw your budget up in January. So many possibilities between now and the start of next season as to who will be playing in the near future.

It's obvious imo, to see that we didn't want to/ or couldn't use up budget we didn't have or know what we are going to have available in the near future.

If we sell some of our better assets, we may have a lot more money to play with in the summer, where we will be able to recruit better for the next season.

Anyone saying 'we ballsed' up' in the January window is wrong in saying that, because we just don't know what circumstances the club are in. It's as simple as that.

I'm sure if money was no object and we could financially do it, then we would have gone out and bought to play the same way.

Bristol City's high tempo and high pressing game was heavily dependant on Bobby Reid.

If Bobby Reid had been inured who was his obvious replacement to ensure continuity in approach? It is not obvious. 

Who amongst the loans would support that approach and provide cover to that style? None of them.

Not doing the same, or not attempting to, and altering that what Bristol City did as a tactic out of possession is working away from it. 

There  was also no attempt to advance the pressing style more aggressively in units of two or three. The opposite was true. Bristol have withdrawn down the pitch. It is intentional.

I think people can agree if they like there, if they don't fine 

[spudski]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City's high tempo and high pressing game was heavily dependant on Bobby Reid.

If Bobby Reid had been inured who was his obvious replacement to ensure continuity in approach? It is not obvious. 

Who amongst the loans would support that approach and provide cover to that style? None of them.

Not doing the same, or not attempting to, and altering that what Bristol City did as a tactic out of possession is working away from it. 

There  was also no attempt to advance the pressing style more aggressively in units of two or three. The opposite was true. Bristol have withdrawn down the pitch. It is intentional.

I think people can agree if they like there, if they don't fine 

Your missing all the points I made regarding the loans and the why's and where for's.

You are right...it's not obvious...Pato maybe when fit.

However...for all the reasons given, it doesn't mean we did it on purpose, but because of circumstance. That's the difference.

[Cowshed]

49 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your missing all the points I made regarding the loans and the why's and where for's.

You are right...it's not obvious...Pato maybe when fit.

However...for all the reasons given, it doesn't mean we did it on purpose, but because of circumstance. That's the difference.

I am not missing your points.

I am dismissing them ... I hope with some courtesy.

And here is why ... We are getting close to agreeing that Bristol Citys former high pressing style was overwhelmingly reliant on ONE player - Bobby Reid.  

That one player and his role in the approach had no obvious replacement. No planning for injury, or loss of form.

30+ (I have not checked) players, loans, millions spent. and there is no obvious replacement for Bobby Reid and what he can do if BCFC want to revert to the football (tactically at least) that saw it reach second spot. You feel that is because of circumstance ...I feel that is because of a lack of focus and intent.

 

 

[Three Lions]

I never thought about like that till now how paper thin that pressing style was.  If Reid got injured that was it. 

[cidered abroad]

I've come to the conclusion that Ashton and Johnson don't have the faintest clue how to run a football club. That's why it's been such a miserable, ineffective last four months. 

While I appreciate the very valuable input from SL, he's not very good at recruiting the right people to run the football at City. 

[wendyredredrobin]

It's the job of the manager to work out what's going wrong and fix it. He certainly hasn't fixed it and I'm not convinced he even understands what's gone wrong. If he does why doesn't he tell us? If he doesn't then I guess he shouldn't be the manager.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, Olé said:

Unfortunately as several threads in the last month illustrated, this is probably the most pointlessly contentious part of the Johnson-era debate as no one can really argue it either way, so your challenge here is as valid as the original statement was. You're both right.

On one hand there are plenty of current players that have shown zero return on investment, on the other hand we know that many were players for the future and the club has yet to write the investments off, so we can't either. Only in time will we know who was right.

But to keep it topical, if Eliasson doesn't start the next two dead rubbers (or even better we recall Moore/Engvall to do the same) I know which way I'd lean on this one.

Re transfers / success of the policy, buy them cheap or get them young and develop them, then we need to play a long-game.  The proof of the pudding will predominantly be seen in which players LJ brings in (and for how much) and what he sells them for.  Of course you could argue that you could attribute players signed by previous managers but sold by LJ, but I think that would be massively subjective.

As it stands, I don’t believe LJ has both bought and then sold 1 player that had made us any money.  He’s had 2 and a bit years, but that’s not long enough to see the churn.  A table below shows our squad and who signed them.  I don’t believe we should expect every player to make a profit.  There will be winners and losers, and also dependent on when in their development curve you buy in a player.  You might want to bring in a 30 year old for £2m this summer to add experience or plug a hole for the next two seasons whilst a younger player develops.  You wouldn’t expect that player to return a profit, but there ought to be intangible returns, possibly linking the development / progress of the young player.

2 hours ago, Three Lions said:

I never thought about like that till now how paper thin that pressing style was.  If Reid got injured that was it. 

That is why it went wrong on Saturday....our trigger-man got moved to a position where he couldn’t trigger, and I can only assume (if I’m gonna give LJ any defence) that Brownhill failed to follow the head coach’s instruction!

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Despite being a supporter for 45 years you still don't get it?  Do the words "long term plan" tell you anything? 

How long is long-term?  If the long-term plan is the Prem following a sustainability model (SL has said as much....no shock) what would you say if I challenged that by saying that as more money is made available to relegated Prem clubs via parachute payments the chances of us being able to compete in the top 10 / top 6 gets harder, unless we have have a freak season (rather than "punching" for half a season), gets harder and harder?  I really worry that the longer we go before being a Prem team, the harder it will become.  I guess the real question to you is - is the strategy aligned to the Championship?  I tend to agree with the strategy in terms of establishing ourselves in this level, but does it allow us to challenge for a whole season?  Do we become the south-west Ipswich?

"Millions wasted on players" - who exactly?  

Too early to say....but my worries about recruitment are subjective at the mo’.

Do you not remember the huge profit on Kodjia when City laughed all the way to the bank? 

I can quite easily say that was not down to LJ.  It does align to the policy....and a successful execution of it.  If we ignore the homegrown players and those signed by previous managers I think LJ is pinning his hopes on Brownhill and O’Dowda, but I don’t see those being sold for £9-13m more than they were signed for.  He may we’ll be the benefactor of Reid, Flint and Bryan....and i’ll happily credit him with Reid’s transfer money.

I daresay that City will make another huge profit on Reid this summer.

See above

As for style of football - we saw that the first half of the season. High pressing, high tempo. Unfortunately City weren't able to maintain that all season - who knows why? Lots of speculation but no definitive answer.

As @Cowshed says we need more players capable of playing the press, and therefore they need to be at least as good as the current eleven that do it, it’s almost like we need another 7 or 8 1st teamers.  I don’t think we are in a position financially to recruit these over the summer...and that might be 10 or 11 if Reid, Flint, Bryan leave.  I really didn’t want an overhaul this summer.

As a supporter of 45 years you should appreciate that the club is as healthy now as it's ever been and I'm qualified to say that because myI first game at AG was in 1967.

Yes, healthy in terms of many things, but not one where SL is just gonna throw money at it....which is no bad thing.  Kicking on season after season is not gonna be easy.  Believe it or not, if it took a season of treading water in 18/19, building the foundations for 19/20 I’d accept that.  Recruit frugally, really doing the due diligence, but for players who are gonna really compete straight away.  That would be my plan.

 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

19 hours ago, Woodsy said:

I don't know what you are expecting then. You asked a question, pointed at Spud, he answered. If the answer matches your own (with better grammar) then maybe you're more ITK than you ever thought

Enjoy the ride. She'll build you up, and knock you down and kick you in the balls whilst you're there. But you can't swap her. It is what it is, there is no guaranteed way of getting to the PL. A bit of luck goes a long way, I'm not sure if we've put a bid in for that just yet

I was asking if people knew how things will work which is different. Spudski i think works in football knows people in football and plays golf with some people in the game (???). LJ has once done a powerpoint on his football elsewhere so I wanted to know if anybody could point me towards something like that.

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

I was asking if people knew how things will work which is different. Spudski i think works in football knows people in football and plays golf with some people in the game (???). LJ has once done a powerpoint on his football elsewhere so I wanted to know if anybody could point me towards something like that.

Coaching in the past, and when asked scouting and doing reports....so no, not 'working' in the game...but the rest is correct.