Get a grip

[Mr Popodopolous]

@spudski

I agree with a lot of what you say, and see some of the criticism by people as harsh.

However, even if we had just had average form this year, we would be in the playoffs. Not saying top 2, that was a bridge too far- but FFP or not, we could IMO financially have loaned Mitrovic or Grabban for a few months.

See, after the Reading game we had the following gaps on teams- and at the time we were 1-0 up v a 10 man Wolves we had the following gap.

Post Reading:

• 2 on Derby
• 6 on Sheffield United
• 9 on Middlesborough
• 9 on Aston Villa
• 10 on Preston
• 12 on Fulham
• 13 on Brentford
• 20 on Millwall

We were also ahead of Cardiff on GD and only 8 off Wolves.

When a goal up v Wolves:

• 2 on Derby
• 3 on Cardiff
• 9 on Sheffield United
• 9 on Aston Villa
• 10 on Preston
• 12 on Middlesbrough
• 13 on Brentford
• 14 on Fulham
• 20 on Millwall

We were also half an hour from beating Wolves, ending their 2 month unbeaten run and would have dented their confidence. Looks small beer now, but the way they celebrated their win at the end suggested it most certainly was not, would not have been. They knew how huge it was- as their gap would have been halved on us in a week from 10 points, cut by Derby too in winter, with lots of pressure and a chasing pack with fresh hope.

Like I say, the form of Wolves, Fulham, Aston Villa, Cardiff meant top 2 perhaps unrealistic but should IMO be in and around 5th or 6th considering.

[glynriley]

27 minutes ago, General Zod said:

Unfortunately I don’t think the club gave a thought about going for it during the window.  We are stubbornly sticking to our long term plan of baby steps towards promotion when we were in a great place to gamble on an opportunity which may not present itself again for years.

Agree with this. It's all very well people saying "You don't know who we went for" or "you don't know what the budget is"

By the same token, we also don't know if they did the very bare minimum and sat there with their fingers crossed. We can suspect though.

[spudski]

25 minutes ago, General Zod said:

I think a guaranteed top two is stretching it but it wouldn’t have taken much success in the window to guarantee a playoff spot as we were so far clear.

Unfortunately I don’t think the club gave a thought about going for it during the window.  We are stubbornly sticking to our long term plan of baby steps towards promotion when we were in a great place to gamble on an opportunity which may not present itself again for years.  Walsh was bought as another one for the future, Diony was a try before you buy and neither was bought for instant impact.  Kent was brought in for our promotion push but turned out to be pants.

The trouble I have with this long term plan is there’s no visible timescale and accountability attached to it so there’s a danger it just gets used to justify poor performance and breeds apathy all over the club.  Do we want promotion or is Bristol Sport/SL just happy to have an established  championship team that is almost breaking even and not draining the Lansdown millions each year?  Are they using the ‘long term’ philosophy to hide what the clubs ambition is really about?

 

What timescale guarantees Promotion? What long term plan or short term plan guarantees promotion?

There are many clubs in this division that have been in it for many years, yet none of them have found the magic formula.

We've been up a couple years, with no years of recent establishment, and we've had one good season, and fans are frustrated at us not being in the play offs.

I just don't understand this reasoning. How can we have such great expectations in reality?

The pressure put on this club to gain promotion, based on no past recent history, because we have a rich owner and new stadium are far from reasonable imo.

The reality is...we have been a poorly run club for many years, and that's the reason we've had no success in the higher leagues to speak of.

We are still playing catch up to teams like Villa in this league.

It wasn't that long ago that we were run like a pub team imo. One scout...poor infra structure etc.

SL just threw money at short term, with no direction and poor coaching and infrastructure.

We are building and miles behind others still.

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@spudski

I agree with a lot of what you say, and see some of the criticism by people as harsh.

However, even if we had just had average form this year, we would be in the playoffs. Not saying top 2, that was a bridge too far- but FFP or not, we could IMO financially have loaned Mitrovic or Grabban for a few months.

See, after the Reading game we had the following gaps on teams- and at the time we were 1-0 up v a 10 man Wolves we had the following gap.

Post Reading:

• 2 on Derby
• 6 on Sheffield United
• 9 on Middlesborough
• 9 on Aston Villa
• 10 on Preston
• 12 on Fulham
• 13 on Brentford
• 20 on Millwall

We were also ahead of Cardiff on GD and only 8 off Wolves.

When a goal up v Wolves:

• 2 on Derby
• 3 on Cardiff
• 9 on Sheffield United
• 9 on Aston Villa
• 10 on Preston
• 12 on Middlesbrough
• 13 on Brentford
• 14 on Fulham
• 20 on Millwall

We were also half an hour from beating Wolves, ending their 2 month unbeaten run and would have dented their confidence. Looks small beer now, but the way they celebrated their win at the end suggested it most certainly was not, would not have been. They knew how huge it was- as their gap would have been halved on us in a week from 10 points, cut by Derby too in winter, with lots of pressure and a chasing pack with fresh hope.

Like I say, the form of Wolves, Fulham, Aston Villa, Cardiff meant top 2 perhaps unrealistic but should IMO be in and around 5th or 6th considering.

We might have asked about loaning others...we just don't know. It's ok to say, we should have signed him, signed that one...but we just don't know. What we should have done, and what we could have done are situations we have no idea about, so it's futile even thinking it.

Wanting one thing...and reality are completely different.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

What timescale guarantees Promotion? What long term plan or short term plan guarantees promotion?

There are many clubs in this division that have been in it for many years, yet none of them have found the magic formula.

We've been up a couple years, with no years of recent establishment, and we've had one good season, and fans are frustrated at us not being in the play offs.

I just don't understand this reasoning. How can we have such great expectations in reality?

The pressure put on this club to gain promotion, based on no past recent history, because we have a rich owner and new stadium are far from reasonable imo.

The reality is...we have been a poorly run club for many years, and that's the reason we've had no success in the higher leagues to speak of.

We are still playing catch up to teams like Villa in this league.

It wasn't that long ago that we were run like a pub team imo. One scout...poor infra structure etc.

SL just threw money at short term, with no direction and poor coaching and infrastructure.

We are building and miles behind others still.

We might have asked about loaning others...we just don't know. It's ok to say, we should have signed him, signed that one...but we just don't know. What we should have done, and what we could have done are situations we have no idea about, so it's futile even thinking it.

Wanting one thing...and reality are completely different.

On the transfers point I tend to, all I'm suggesting is that financially a loan wouldn't have wrecked us had we been able to.

The great start though, with over half the season gone- that cushion over teams...2nd place no, playoffs- yeah don't get how we blew that.

However yeah, make you bang on about how we were run in the past and the long past to boot- still playing catch up, both on and off the pitch- all these clubs or many at least at this level have had the corporate facilities both matchday and non matchday that we now have- and had them for years.

Still, you need to take a chance when it comes- and for me, playoffs was certainly achievable from there.

[Shtanley]

If we'd given Engvall and Eliasson game time instead of Diony and Kent would we be in the playoffs? Would we as a fanbase endorse the current scouting and recruitment system more? Would we have more faith in LJ and MA when they big up young foreign imports? 

I think all 3 answers would be yes.

Why should we believe LJ the next time he says a young foreign winger has exceptional qualities and that premier clubs had been interested in him? Because the last time he said so, he ended up bringing in Leko and Kent to play instead of him. 

[Jack Dawe]

4 minutes ago, glynriley said:

Agree with this. It's all very well people saying "You don't know who we went for" or "you don't know what the budgets is"

By the same token, we also don't know if they did the very bare minimum and sat their with their fingers crossed. We can suspect though.

A good point, well made.

We can also compare and contrast with previous January windows, and see that we were busier and seemingly more determined to affect the first team:

Jan 2016: we brought in Tomlin, from PL Bournemouth. 26 years old, proven Championship quality. We also got a keeper, a classy right back, and Odemwingie. None of your kids for three years time there.

Jan 2017: Bailey Wright, Djuric, Hegeler, Giefer the dodgy keeper, Dave Cotterill, Matty Taylor. Again, no young for-the-future signings or young loans - all for delivering immediately, and seeing off relegation.

Jan 2018: Diony, Kent, Walsh.

 

The budget must've been much bigger in 2016 and 17 then! 

 

 

[spudski]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

On the transfers point I tend to, all I'm suggesting is that financially a loan wouldn't have wrecked us had we been able to.

The great start though, with over half the season gone- that cushion over teams...2nd place no, playoffs- yeah don't get how we blew that.

'had we been able to'...being the correct sentiment.

Like I said...we may have approached others, we just don't know.

Could we afford their wages in our budget...who knows?

Did they want to come here? Who knows...

We just don't know.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

A good point, well made.

We can also compare and contrast with previous January windows, and see that we were busier and seemingly more determined to affect the first team:

Jan 2016: we brought in Tomlin, from PL Bournemouth. 26 years old, proven Championship quality. We also got a keeper, a classy right back, and Odemwingie. None of your kids for three years time there.

Jan 2017: Bailey Wright, Djuric, Hegeler, Giefer the dodgy keeper, Dave Cotterill, Matty Taylor. Again, no young for-the-future signings or young loans - all for delivering immediately, and seeing off relegation.

Jan 2018: Diony, Kent, Walsh.

 

The budget must've been much bigger in 2016 and 17 then! 

 

 

However, on the flip side- had we not sold Kodjia, we would have made a fairly hefty loss last season. How do we know that the necessary short-termism of past windows, didn't affect our wriggle room in this one?

No simple answers to it IMO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

'had we been able to'...being the correct sentiment.

Like I said...we may have approached others, we just don't know.

Could we afford their wages in our budget...who knows?

Did they want to come here? Who knows...

We just don't know.

 

 

Transfers granted we don't know for sure. Given how FFP works though, I would suggest we could afford only 4 months of Grabban or Mitrovic.

The rest is pure speculation- did they want to come etc? We don't and I guess won't know.

What about the collapse though- should we not have made play-offs from position we were in?

[Jack Dawe]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

'had we been able to'...being the correct sentiment.

Like I said...we may have approached others, we just don't know.

Could we afford their wages in our budget...who knows?

Did they want to come here? Who knows...

We just don't know.

 

 

It's amazing what you are "able to" when you are sufficiently motivated, spud. ie, when facing the prospect of relegation, and losing something (including "face" and reputation). As we can see from the Jan 2017 window (unless it was a happy accident of chance that so many experienced players were available that year).

Faced this January with something to gain, we had a noticeably different (in numbers, experience, proven league quality) window to the previous two Januarys.

 

We just have to hope that the slump in form since has no detrimental bearing on next season or longer.

[Jack Dawe]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Transfers granted we don't know for sure. Given how FFP works though, I would suggest we could afford only 4 months of Grabban or Mitrovic.

The rest is pure speculation- did they want to come etc? We don't and I guess won't know.

One week of Mitrovic would've been an upgrade on 5 months of Diony and Kent

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

It's amazing what you are "able to" when you are sufficiently motivated, spud. ie, when facing the prospect of relegation, and losing something (including "face" and reputation). As we can see from the Jan 2017 window (unless it was a happy accident of chance that so many experienced players were available that year).

Faced this January with something to gain, we had a noticeably different (in numbers, experience, proven league quality) window to the previous two Januarys

 

We just have to hope that the slump in form since has no detrimental bearing on next season or longer.

The noticeably different window probably tells us something...ie we just couldn't do it.

I really don't think this club are stupid enough, to just not bother, when in such a good position.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

One week of Mitrovic would've been an upgrade on 5 months of Diony and Kent

Don't disagree with that!

Still, the Financial point holds- it's all there in the accounts but our Player Trading last season reduced our losses to £3,624,165- without it our losses would have been £11,998,751.

We'll have to wait and see until this season's accounts come out I guess-but I get the feeling that Mitrovic, Grabban or Afobe on loan would have been affordable- but as soon as Wolves in for the latter he was always going to go back there.

[JamesBCFC]

56 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Fair comment EnglandsNo2 but given where we were post Xmas and the dire form since, surely you can understand why some of us are a tad flat? 

You are correct in that, if offered 10th at the start of the season, I would have been more than happy to have taken that but when you're 2nd at Xmas, playing great stuff, the last 4 months have been a real disappointment. I'm sure you would agree with that? 

As I've said on another thread, if it were the other way around (awful pre Xmas, superb afterwards), we wouldn't feel the same but we were going like a train and have ballsed it up, hence the flat feeling I guess.

There is a monumental difference to being 'flat' and the majority of the negative bile on here.

[soultrader]

3 hours ago, old_eastender said:

Well said, fed-up with this we've done well finishing in the top half nonsense, from where we were at end of Dec we have not done well in the league at all, golden opportunity (which might take another 10 years to come around again)  blown.   

Genuine question ... why might it take another 10 years?   I might happen next year ?

 

[Ska Junkie]

56 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

There is a monumental difference to being 'flat' and the majority of the negative bile on here.

That's a fair comment as well James.  Nothing like a good conspiracy theory to fill time eh! 

[Top Robin]

13 hours ago, EnglandsNo2 said:

I’m no happy clapper trust me , but what’s the point in slagging off players that have have gave me the proudest night supporting city beating utd 2-1 I’ll never forget it no drug could top that feeling  , Take that with a comfy top half finish for me our best season since we lost to hull in play off final , attracting better players will be much easier this summer with the war chest lJ will have , min 25 mill income with the sells of flint , Bryan , maggers and duric , we got some cracking youth coming Thur as well Kelly and vyner are jus the tip of the ice berg and we are really going to benefit from the cash injection and restructure that lansdown done years ago we will soon see a lot more Bristol lads in pro football 

I would have traded in that cup run to see us in the play offs. 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

However, on the flip side- had we not sold Kodjia, we would have made a fairly hefty loss last season. How do we know that the necessary short-termism of past windows, didn't affect our wriggle room in this one?

No simple answers to it IMO.

What we know is that we brought in more when threatened with relegation than we did when there was something to gain. We still spent money in January; we spent it on a "try before you buy" (MA on Diony) and two kids (one of whom was not that good last season, according to a Barnsley fan on here. And only played 40 games because they couldn't afford the fine we might now be paying!) - not exactly a 'calling of the cavalry' but we must hope that over the long-term, it comes good.

And if financial constraints hamper recruitment at times, it might be worth MA mentioning this in his interviews he gives discussing transfer windows. 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Jack Dawe said:

What we know is that we brought in more when threatened with relegation than we did when there was something to gain. We still spent money in January; we spent it on a "try before you buy" (MA on Diony) and two kids (one of whom was not that good last season, according to a Barnsley fan on here. And only played 40 games because they couldn't afford the fine we might now be paying!) - not exactly a 'calling of the cavalry' but we must hope that over the long-term, it comes good.

And if financial constraints hamper recruitment at times, it might be worth MA mentioning this in his interviews he gives discussing transfer windows. 

 

 

I know what you're saying, but the accounts for each season would show a more complete picture.

Personal view is we were a bit overcautious in January, and we could have spent the money better- but no guarantee that Afobe, Grabban or Mitrovic would have joined us- no guarantee at all.

[Jack Dawe]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I know what you're saying, but the accounts for each season would show a more complete picture.

Personal view is we were a bit overcautious in January, and we could have spent the money better- but no guarantee that Afobe, Grabban or Mitrovic would have joined us- no guarantee at all.

I haven't mentioned those players. There are more/other players out there!  

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't disagree with that!

Still, the Financial point holds- it's all there in the accounts but our Player Trading last season reduced our losses to £3,624,165- without it our losses would have been £11,998,751.

We'll have to wait and see until this season's accounts come out I guess-but I get the feeling that Mitrovic, Grabban or Afobe on loan would have been affordable- but as soon as Wolves in for the latter he was always going to go back there.

I am pretty certain a £40k per week loan would have been possible.

Particularly if we hadn't bothered spending any money on the three we did in Jan - none of whom have contributed at all.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, ScottishRed said:

I am pretty certain a £40k per week loan would have been possible.

Particularly if we hadn't bothered spending any money on the three we did in Jan - none of whom have contributed at all.

Though, I still think Walsh will prove a good signing to add depth and competition- but time will tell.

[ScottishRed]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Though, I still think Walsh will prove a good signing to add depth and competition- but time will tell.

You may be right, but if money was tight in Jan we didn't really need to spend a chunk of it on him.

LJ said, as he always does, that he could contribute straight away. He was wrong.

[Andy082005]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

It annoys me so much when I read how angry some supporters are, when they say 'We've blown it'.

Do they honestly believe we have a squad strong enough in this league to finish in the top 2? Seriously!!!

And even if we made the top 6...there is no guarantee of going up, it's a lottery. The same fans would complain and said 'we blew it' if losing in the play offs.

Over a whole season...we sit 2 wins difference from being in the top 6. Just two wins...and some people think it's mediocre.

I can understand feeling disappointed...but some are seriously deluded imo.

And nothing more frustrating than people being accused of being 'happy clappers'...when they see it for what it is.

No we don't have a strong enough squad. There lies the issue

I think people are more upset with how easily we seemed to throw the towel in with our January recruitment ....more so then our final league position 

Lots of people could see it looked weak at the time....and it certainly proved to be the case

Had we bought players in who were Championship ready...like posters like Michael McIndoe were talking about..then at least it could have been seen as doing everything possible 

I don't think posters on here are deluded. I just think what's happened since January  is the most 'Bristol City thing' that could have happened. People are just fed up of seeing us ....once again...make an absolute cock up of something

 

[Aaron-Bcfc]

4 hours ago, bris red said:

Why are you trying to defend the club all the time? Diony was an absolute woeful signing, obviously i dont know the inner workings of the club or the budget but if Diony was the best we could muster doesn’t that worry you? Especially with Reid going in the summer too?

We didn't sign someone like Grabban on loan because, as Johnson said last week, the budget won't allow for that kind of money to be spend on such a "gamble".

However, we'll now be paying a 300k fine for not playing Kent. That could've been used to cover 8-12 weeks of a Lewis Grabban's wages.

Seems odd to me that Lansdown is evidently unwilling to spend the going rate on wages for proven players, but will happily spunk away millions and millions on transfer fees for the likes of Walsh, Engvall, Moore, Eliasson, Magnússon etc. All of which are either not up to scratch or can't get a game.

Yet I bet if Johnson and Ashton pluck out another £2.5m random Swedish youngster in the summer there will be no hesitation in funding that deal.

[weepywall]

Diony is being paid 15k a week to wander around Cabots Circus, money well spent ? !!!! 

[EnderMB]

If I managed to wrangle a date with Katy Perry I'd be well and truly punching above my weight.

If all I got at the end of the night was a handshake and a fake number, I could be rightly annoyed.

Sure, I got a date with Katy Perry, but your expectations change during the year. With Bristol City, I would've snapped your ******* arm off for a mid-table finish, or to be near the playoff places. Given that we had lost Tammy I was expecting a close shave with relegation, but we did well. Obviously, not great that we've blown it near the end, but hopefully we use it as an opportunity to push forward.

[Alan Dicks]

16 hours ago, EnglandsNo2 said:

We would of all snapped ur hands of at being offered top half championship football , which we achieved well before the seasons end , yeah we had a cup run and long overdue too I was born 86 the 1st I can remember great well done Move on  . But our problem is as fans  we get to hyped up on the headlines and what other people think of our club . Personally I don’t give a hoot what others think we made strong progress in the league and Now have established ourselves firmly in a good position to push on and make the play offs next year , too many city fans are very short sighted take a step back look at the bigger picture we will get to the prem but it might take another 5 years but as  fans let get behind it and stay behind it because it could be a lot worse just look at the gas 

COYR 

4 wins out of last 20 games, where is this progress you see?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

No we don't have a strong enough squad. There lies the issue

I think people are more upset with how easily we seemed to throw the towel in with our January recruitment ....more so then our final league position 

Lots of people could see it looked weak at the time....and it certainly proved to be the case

Had we bought players in who were Championship ready...like posters like Michael McIndoe were talking about..then at least it could have been seen as doing everything possible 

I don't think posters on here are deluded. I just think what's happened since January  is the most 'Bristol City thing' that could have happened. People are just fed up of seeing us ....once again...make an absolute cock up of something

 

This is what's doing my nut in...how do you know we threw in the towel in our January window? We could have done the utmost within our budget to get players in.

Do you not think we would have brought players in to try and reinforce and get us over the line, if we could have done? Or are you just going to say, 'it's the City way to cock it up'?

That's such a ridiculous thing to say.

Do you actually believe our recruitment just sat their twiddling their thumbs not trying their best?

How have we made a 'cock up' of things, if we don't have the budget? It's been explained.

It's just ridiculous talk.

I really can't grasp certain fans mentality, when they think we can just go out and buy whoever we want. It just doesn't work like that.

It's been explained a thousand times on here, over and over again...why can't people understand?

It's just mental talk...I'm over this place for a while, it's doing my nut in.

[Red-Robbo]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

It annoys me so much when I read how angry some supporters are, when they say 'We've blown it'.

Do they honestly believe we have a squad strong enough in this league to finish in the top 2? Seriously!!!

And even if we made the top 6...there is no guarantee of going up, it's a lottery. The same fans would complain and said 'we blew it' if losing in the play offs.

Over a whole season...we sit 2 wins difference from being in the top 6. Just two wins...and some people think it's mediocre.

I can understand feeling disappointed...but some are seriously deluded imo.

And nothing more frustrating than people being accused of being 'happy clappers'...when they see it for what it is.

We punched above our weight in the first half of the season. Pure and simple.

The weight of fixtures late December/January did us no favours and we were unlucky with injuries too, but ultimately, I was not expecting City to finish second or any where near - we just didn't have the strength in depth or the versatility.

I agree with the angry fans who say January was an opportunity to address pressing issues and complacency meant it wasn't done. HUGE lesson learned by Johnson hopefully.

However, if anyone thinks this season was our one and only shot at promotion I have to quibble. It's a building process. I hate the phrase, but it is "a project". Infrastructure, crowds, revenue and on the pitch too.

Let's see what we look like in August before we all book single tickets to Beachy Head, shall we?