Inevitable, but terrible / Disappointing transfer window (Merged)

[Sturny]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Do you mean the new signings are better than those that moved on and therefore have strengthened the squad?

Its the same question tho - how do we know what impact the new players will make when City have played just one match? 

Wait untill 10/15 games have gone before making an informed view on the new guys is my entire point on this topic but some are claiming that they’re inferior to the ones we had - how can they judge with only one game so far? 

You already know the answer to that Robbored. We don't know and can only speculate. 

It's just we have our doubts they'll fill their boots. I don't feel silly in saying a player who scored 17 in 100 odd appearances in the champ will struggle to achieve what bobby did last season.  

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Sturny said:

You already know the answer to that Robbored. We don't know and can only speculate. 

It's just we have our doubts they'll fill their boots. I don't feel silly in saying a player who scored 17 in 100 odd appearances in the champ will struggle to achieve what bobby did last season.  

So now you’re diluting your original claim........you’re admitting that we can only speculate (which essentially guesswork) Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’.

Btw, how many goals had Reid scored from midfield before LJ reinvented him as a striker? 

Who can argue that Wieman,Famara or Eisa won’t bag 20+ goals this season?

Point is none of us have a crystal ball...........

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

15 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Mmm.... I remember LJ saying it himself.

Afaic. LJ gets the credit for actually trying it, and persevering, even though as a poster pointed out last time I tried to credit him, we were very short of alternative forward options at the time.

Btw, the backroom statisticians you seem never to have heard of are often referred to by LJ and the club. It's almost unbelievable you may be unaware of them.

My memory is that Lee said he decided to try BR up front having used the resource of the statistics available to him.

Back room statistics are usually based on computer software and give one dimensional information  which is not clever in itself- it's just info like  the drones he uses for filming training matches. It's how you then use that info that makes it clever or worthwhile.

 

[Sturny]

22 minutes ago, Robbored said:

So now you’re diluting your original claim........you’re admitting that we can only speculate (which essentially guesswork) Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’.

Btw, how many goals had Reid scored from midfield before LJ reinvented him as a striker? 

Who can argue that Wieman,Famara or Eisa won’t bag 20+ goals this season?

Point is none of us have a crystal ball...........

 

Diluting  

You've defeated your own argument in the same post. "Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’ yes I do think they're inferior to Bobby Reid individually yet you think it's gonna take all three of them to achieve 20+ goals this season similarly near like Bobby did. We were discussing direct replacements like Bobby for Wiemann but you've bought our entire strike force into it now to try and win this argument. 

Why do you think it'll take all three of them to achieve anything near what Bobby did last season Robbored?  

Gwon say it. Say Weimann is better than Bobby Reid I dare you. 

 

 

[Monkeh]

8 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Diluting  

You've defeated your own argument in the same post. "Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’ yes I do think they're inferior to Bobby Reid individually yet you think it's gonna take all three of them to achieve 20+ goals this season like Bobby did. We were discussing direct replacements like Bobby for Wiemann but you've bought our entire strike force into it now to try and win this argument. 

Why do you think it'll take all three of them to achieve anything near what Bobby did last season Robbored? 

we got through to a play off final with a striker scoring 9 goals

the top 4 scorers last season 

1 Vydra 21

2 Grabbon 20

3 Clarke 19 (0 from pen)

4 Reid 19 (3 from pen)

 

all played for clubs that didn't get promoted

Wolves top scorer got 17

Cardiffs 10

and Fulhams 12

Why the obsession with 20 goals a season striker??

the 3 teams that went up all conceded 1 or less per game, thats where our problem lays not goal scoring but defending,

We've replaced 2 defenders who were part of a leaky defense 

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Diluting  

You've defeated your own argument in the same post. "Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’ yes I do think they're inferior to Bobby Reid individually yet you think it's gonna take all three of them to achieve 20+ goals this season similarly near like Bobby did. We were discussing direct replacements like Bobby for Wiemann but you've bought our entire strike force into it now to try and win this argument. 

Why do you think it'll take all three of them to achieve anything near what Bobby did last season Robbored? 

Blimey, you two still at it?!!

 

 

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

we got through to a play off final with a striker scoring 9 goals

the top 4 scorers last season 

1 Vydra

2 Grabbon

3 Clarke

4 Reid

 

all played for clubs that didn't get promoted

Wolves top scorer got 17

Cardiffs 10

and Fulhams 12

Why the obsession with 20 goals a season striker??

the 3 teams that went up all conceded 1 or less per game, thats where our problem lays not goal scoring but defending,

We've replaced 2 defenders who were part of a leaky defense 

There's no obsession, just a debate on who's better Bobby Reid of Wiemann there. Personally think our defence will not be as good without Bryan and Flint. Can see why you'd think they were leaky tho, as there was mistakes.

[bristolcitysweden]

Things don't look to rosy but we can only watch how it pans out. My biggest worry is missing Bobby Reid. With the current set up goals won't come easy. The idea of bringing on Henderson is absurd. Hopefully not another relegation battle. The idea of mid table mediocrasy is a bluff. There is no such thing.  

[Monkeh]

7 minutes ago, Sturny said:

There's no obsession, just a debate on who's better Bobby Reid of Wiemann there. Personally think our defence will not be as good without Bryan and Flint. Can see why you'd think they were leaky tho, as there was mistakes.

wieman is he's spent all of his career in the top two leagues playing out of position at two clubs the other has had 1 good season

the defense was leaky,

with flint and bryan in the side

2015/16 conceded 71

2016/17 conceded 66

2017/18 conceded 58

 

We need to concede less then 50 if we want to mount a promotion challenge

[Sturny]

7 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

wieman is he's spent all of his career in the top two leagues playing out of position at two clubs the other has had 1 good season

the defense was leaky,

with flint and bryan in the side

2015/16 conceded 71

2016/17 conceded 66

2017/18 conceded 58

 

We need to concede less then 50 if we want to mount a promotion challenge

Then why did Cardiff sign Bobby and not the cheaper better Weimann. I know why. 

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Then why did Cardiff sign Bobby and not the cheaper better Weimann. I know why. 

Personally I think Cardiff have taken  massive risk on a player who is untested at Premier League level and has had one good season at Championship level. Every bit as big as the risk we are taking on Eisa.

[downendcity]

10 minutes ago, lenred said:

Blimey, you two still at it?!!

Ive been married for 40 years, and this thread feels like I'm reliving every year of it it - never start an argument with someone that will never concede that they are , or might be wrong.

Only 2 rules in our house:

Rule 1: Mrs Downend is always right

Rule 2: When Mrs Downend is wrong then rule 1 applies.

Think this also applies to one or two posters on here!

 

For what it's worth, if we received £23/24 m for Reid, Bryan and Flint, how could we replace them with what some fans would regard as equal or better, because logic implies that we would have to shell out the same sort of money for 3 players of equal quality and ability. It would also mean paying the sort of wages Reid , Flint and Reid have been given by their new clubs and this would blow our wage budget out of the water on it's own, let alone the problem of every other player i the squad wanting an uplift in their wages commensurate with what those 3 players would be getting.

The very harsh financial reality of the championship is that we have to buy as smart as we can ( not the same as doing it on the cheap, as the club's critics love to suggest). Up until this window this strategy has tended to be bringing on academy players, which I hope and am sure will continue, but also buying the much derided "ones for the future". The interesting change this summer has been the club bringing in championship experienced players for decent fees, and presumably decent wages.

This might be because LJ has had more of a say in transfer policy. It has also happened  because of the transfer money we've received, but I think also because the clubs income has improved thanks to the stadium redevelopment so  I suspect we are now able to afford much stronger wages for the right players. 

With such a change in personal in the summer, in particular the loss of 3 previously key players, the start of this season is bound to be an uncertain one. It is the chance for other players to step up to the plate and take their chance. Elliasson looks to have stated the season well, and getting a couple of early goals will hopefully have given Weimann a confidence boost and his experience could be a valuable asset.

Long established players like Reid, Bran and Flint can be a dominant factor in a dressing room. I'm not suggesting anything sinister, but new players in particular can be intimidated by strong and established personalities, so their departures might give other players the chance to come out of their shells and new players to settle quicker.

I think we have a better squad than we've had for some time and am hoping that new players settle quickly so that the first 11 does not miss those players that have left - that's  a tough act to follow, but am looking forward to the new season with the usual mixture of excitement and trepidation.

  

 

 

 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

9 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Then why did Cardiff sign Bobby and not the cheaper better Weimann. I know why. 

Me too. It's because Colin just wanted to make a point on OTIB.

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Personally I think Cardiff have taken  massive risk on a player who is untested at Premier League level and has had one good season at Championship level. Every bit as big as the risk we are taking on Eisa.

All signings are a risk but more so with players who are unproven at the new level as both Reid and Eisa are. I’ll be surprised if Reid gets a start at Cardfff tho.

[Numero Uno]

41 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Diluting  

You've defeated your own argument in the same post. "Previously you reckoned they’re ‘inferior’ yes I do think they're inferior to Bobby Reid individually yet you think it's gonna take all three of them to achieve 20+ goals this season similarly near like Bobby did. We were discussing direct replacements like Bobby for Wiemann but you've bought our entire strike force into it now to try and win this argument. 

Why do you think it'll take all three of them to achieve anything near what Bobby did last season Robbored?  

Gwon say it. Say Weimann is better than Bobby Reid I dare you. 

 

 

Big if’s but if Weimann gets ten goals, Eisa around that amount (which would be fine for a lad with his lack of experience) and Diedhou around 15 we are ok in the striking department, pretty much as you were, assuming we can get a few from midfield. The only thing missing then is the 8 or so that Flint gets you so we’ve either got to find a way of replacing that or concede less!!

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

All signings are a risk but more so with players who are unproven at the new level as both Reid and Eisa are. I’ll be surprised if Reid gets a start at Cardfff tho.

Agreed and clubs like us have to take the odd risk on an Eisa. Most of our other signings tbf look”safe” ones.

[Kid in the Riot]

16 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

I am at an utter loss however with the optimism surrounding Wieman

You didn't see much of him alongside Benteke at Villa then I take it? Very good player, and the hope is he strikes up a similar partnership with Famara.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Big if’s but if Weimann gets ten goals, Eisa around that amount (which would be fine for a lad with his lack of experience) and Diedhou around 15 we are ok in the striking department, pretty much as you were, assuming we can get a few from midfield. The only thing missing then is the 8 or so that Flint gets you so we’ve either got to find a way of replacing that or concede less!!

Assists?

Perhaps Weimann (and to a lesser extent Eisa and Diedhiou) will provide a number of assists. 

Mind you , Reid provided 7 assists in addition to the 19 goals so it's like replacing 1 and a half players tbh!

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Assists?

Perhaps Weimann (and to a lesser extent Eisa and Diedhiou) will provide a number of assists. 

Mind you , Reid provided 7 assists in addition to the 19 goals so it's like replacing 1 and a half players tbh!

I would expect Weimann to be ok on that front. As long as we get enough goals from the likes of O’Dowda, Elliason, Paterson and Adelukun when he’s fit we’ll be fine.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

Sorry I don’t see the logic your there Hodge. We can bring in better players, we bought in Tammy for Kodjia don’t you remember? He was at minimum equal quality. Or do you have a selective memory when choosing your arguments? That’s quite a bold statement to say we can never bring in better players 

So using your own logic how on earth can you claim that Bryan is definitely better than Dasilva who is recognised as a serious talent? 

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

So using your own logic how on earth can you claim that Bryan is definitely better than Dasilva who is recognised as a serious talent? 

Tbf, Joe Bryan is also a serious talent but my issue with him is plays like a world beater for six weeks and a panel beater for the next four!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I would expect Weimann to be ok on that front. As long as we get enough goals from the likes of O’Dowda, Elliason, Paterson and Adelukun when he’s fit we’ll be fine.

My point is, gotta look at the whole package.

In the past, goalkeepers kept the ball out and took crosses, defenders tackled and cleared, midfielders battled with some skilful ones though more as wingers, strikers scored. Simple. I know that's a generalisation but it was fairly broad assessment I think.

Now goalies sweep up or at certain levels particularly, defenders bring the ball out, score goals and even assist, midfielders track back or dictate the tempo in a different way to before- and particularly skilful wingers who also now need to switch flank,  tuck in both and strikers as well as scoring can also work prodigiously hard in pressing, defending from the front- as well as providing skill and assists. At this level, let alone above I would say it's almost becoming a prerequisite for ambitious sides.

A bit lengthy but in short, I'd say that the old 'judge a striker on their goals' (not saying you are though) doesn't necessarily hold true IMO. So instead of 20 goals and that's the lot, 10 goals and 10 assists makes an equal contribution. Bit off that perhaps more likely, say 10 goals and 7 assists. More than 10 and 10? Brilliant!

[Sturny]

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

So using your own logic how on earth can you claim that Bryan is definitely better than Dasilva who is recognised as a serious talent? 

Because Bryan is recognised as an even bigger serious talent. Hence why he's now in the premier league. Fulham and Vila both realised that and went for Bryan first and Vila went for Dasilva after. 

Are you claiming Dasilva is better? I could agree that Dasilva could potentially become a better serious talent in a few years but right now I don't believe he's better. 

[Dodgy_Giefer]

It does feel disappointing but every cloud has a Dasilva lining. Keep the faith.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Because Bryan is recognised as an even bigger serious talent. Hence why he's now in the premier league. Fulham and Vila both realised that and went for Bryan first and Vila went for Dasilva after. 

Are you claiming Dasilva is better? I could agree that Dasilva could potentially become a better serious talent in a few years nut right now I don't believe he's better. 

Will be interesting to see how Brian does tbh. He’s not recognised as such a serious talent that Premier League clubs with ambition have taken a punt on him.

He’s at a Fulham side who only have one ambition this season.....stay in the league. In many games you would expect them to be on the back foot which will test out Bryan’s defensive capabilities.

What Fulham cannot afford with him are his spells of inconsistency he shows otherwise he will get dropped. Will be interesting to see whether him and Reid are good enough to step up to the plate at that level.

[Monkeh]

10 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Because Bryan is recognised as an even bigger serious talent. Hence why he's now in the premier league. Fulham and Vila both realised that and went for Bryan first and Vila went for Dasilva after. 

Are you claiming Dasilva is better? I could agree that Dasilva could potentially become a better serious talent in a few years but right now I don't believe he's better. 

no he isn't, if that were the case Dasilva wouldn't be at chelsea Bryan would of 

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

no he isn't, if that were the case Dasilva wouldn't be at chelsea Bryan would of 

Hahaha alright pal    Why did Fulham sign Bryan but not Dasilva then? 

[REDOXO]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Tbf, Joe Bryan is also a serious talent but my issue with him is plays like a world beater for six weeks and a panel beater for the next four!!

He is. Two footed winger converted two a full back. Fulham have a player that can play in multiple roles. 

2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Because Bryan is recognised as an even bigger serious talent. Hence why he's now in the premier league. Fulham and Vila both realised that and went for Bryan first and Vila went for Dasilva after. 

Are you claiming Dasilva is better? I could agree that Dasilva could potentially become a better serious talent in a few years nut right now I don't believe he's better. 

Bryan was not signing a contract, thus for City to make any money he had to be sold. 

Who knows if DaSilva is better, I know I don’t as I have never once seen him play, however three FA Youth Cup winners medals suggest he is not to bad and it would seem City have been lining this one up for a while. So they obviously think he was our best option as a replacement and it keeps a very nice tie up with Chelsea.

No one knows whether we will do better than last season and we wont have a clue how we are going to do really until we have played 20 or so games.

[Numero Uno]

12 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Because Bryan is recognised as an even bigger serious talent. Hence why he's now in the premier league. Fulham and Vila both realised that and went for Bryan first and Vila went for Dasilva after. 

Are you claiming Dasilva is better? I could agree that Dasilva could potentially become a better serious talent in a few years but right now I don't believe he's better. 

Go back 12 months, who believed that playing Bobby Reid up top (on his own some of the time) would bolster our goals tally? Let’s give the left back a few games to see what he can do?

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

 Will be interesting to see how Brian does tbh. He’s not recognised as such a serious talent that Premier League clubs with ambition have taken a punt on him.

He’s at a Fulham side who only have one ambition this season.....stay in the league. In many games you would expect them to be on the back foot which will test out Bryan’s defensive capabilities.

 What Fulham cannot afford with him are his spells of inconsistency he shows otherwise he will get dropped. Will be interesting to see whether him and Reid are good enough to step up to the plate at that level.

Wouldn't be so sure Fulham will be on the backfoot at most times tbh- a decent number sure, but some of the signings they've made and their philosophy...

Not even certain Bryan will be a regular starter- at least in the tougher games, he might start at home more and v middling to lower sides, but they will want a more purely defensive LB I feel for those games. It's a squad game now and all that.