And Its Smith Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Loan fee plus wages.... Nowhere near that amount. Miles out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 A lot of people seem to have seriously misread this interview. Suggest you all read @davefevs summary a few points up who has nailed it as the CFO intended it to be read. He doesnt say Johnson thinks he is Jesus for example!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, RedDave said: Nowhere near that amount. Miles out As far out as a Rob Newman 40-yard volley v Newport? That far out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, RedDave said: Nowhere near that amount. Miles out Ok, you are in the know, how much did it cost us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: As far out as a Rob Newman 40-yard volley v Newport? That far out? A great memory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: A great memory! My best goal I’ve seen at AG....followed in joint 2nd by Jimmy Mann and Lee Tomlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Thanks for sharing. By not selling Joe, Aden or Bobby at that point...and adding Kent, Diony and Walsh. I suspect the finances would really have pointed to selling one asset to balance the books, but in 2nd place at Xmas, the short term strategy changed. It’s just a generalisation of the world of football imho. And don’t you think LJ approached MA and SL, striding through the boardroom (Western Salloon style) doors like John Wayne, saying “I'm brilliant, look at what I'm doing, you need to back me big time this window”. Or words to that effect. And then having to swallow some pride on the back of a poor run, knowing that putting off the sale of the three mentioned above was gonna have to happen in the summer - ‘there;s gonna be some tough decisions” and all that. Perhaps he should’ve worded it better. See above. It is quite open, but when your owner has to publicly turn debt into shares of circa £18m to cover 17/18 season’s losses, he’s not really doing anything more than telling us his It is. “but we lost the most we’ve ever lost" proves how much the manager was backed...just not to the extent a number of posters wanted, e.g. Mitrovic, Grabban etc. Certainly £5-8m reserved to buy him if we went up and he impressed....plus his loan fee, wages, etc. When the accounts are officially published it’s gonna be a stark realisation of where we were in January and why we recouped £25m+ in fees thus summer and only spent a portion of it. All against the backdrop of great league run, great attendances, cup run....but biggest loss!!! Great post. Having given it some thought- dust having settled after the disappointment of Jan transfers then summer sales, I think we lost in the region of 20m last season. I really thought what he said about 'Success can mean losing more money' Paradoxical yet true. What the piece also said about 'unexpected windfalls evaporating in the blink of an eye'- it went onto say in same sentence that we smashed our budget after beating Man Utd. In that context, this summer's business seems more and more like it was inevitable. Seems we had little choice but to sell, in all aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Great post. Having given it some thought- dust having settled after the disappointment of Jan transfers then summer sales, I think we lost in the region of 20m last season. I really thought what he said about 'Success can mean losing more money' Paradoxical yet true. What the piece also said about 'unexpected windfalls evaporating in the blink of an eye'- it went onto say in same sentence that we smashed our budget after beating Man Utd. In that context, this summer's business seems more and more like it was inevitable. Seems we had little choice but to sell, in all aspects. Told you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 31 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Ok, you are in the know, how much did it cost us? Well it certainly wasnt £10m! How are you breaking that down? £30k per week over 25 weeks and a £9.25m loan fee for half a season? or was it maybe £60k per week and £8.5m loan fee? or maybe we paid the average striker £150k per week and STILL had to stump up £6m loan fee!! Which one do you think? Maybe there was only a £2m loan fee and we paid him £350k per week!! I dont know which one is more ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loco Rojo Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Not sure why he's being slated for what he's said. He's just telling it like it is. I didn't read it that he slated LJ either. I think some on here need to wake up and see the reality of what football is these days - it is a business and these people behind the scenes need to be business minded. Shit the bed, would you want footballers running the show? We'd have collapsed years ago I'm sure if some people spent some time behind the scenes they'd realise just how challenging running a club from a financial perspective in modern football is. The one thing that was interesting was the comments about transfers and that City don't receive money in one chunk but spread over seasons and with conditions being met. He then mentioned that if players flop, clubs don't receive chunks of the fee. Would players like Reid or Bryan struggling in the PL result in their clubs classifying them as 'flops' and therefore withhold some of the fees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 8 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: The £10 million was for Diony An agreed transfer fee if we made it permanent probably yes. No way did we pay that for a loan, even with wages etc - they only paid £9m for him!! Diony Signs Whilst it doesnt mention what the proposed permanent fee would be, although I'm pretty sure £10m was being banded about on here. It also never mentioned that we werent paying £10m for a loan, granted, but the fact that this figure would have nearly doubled what we paid for Famara, our record signing, I struggle to see how you get £10m paid for a loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, Taz said: An agreed transfer fee if we made it permanent probably yes. No way did we pay that for a loan, even with wages etc - they only paid £9m for him!! Diony Signs Whilst it doesnt mention what the proposed permanent fee would be, although I'm pretty sure £10m was being banded about on here. It also never mentioned that we werent paying £10m for a loan, granted, but the fact that this figure would have nearly doubled what we paid for Famara, our record signing, I struggle to see how you get £10m paid for a loan. That’s what I was suggesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brent Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 21 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Also interesting* to hear the ticketing strategy for the Man Utd game was 100% targeted at maximising revenue. “When we drew Man United in the cup, we came up with something quite neat: if you wanted to get a ticket for the game, you had to be a member. Membership is the next level down from being a season ticket holder. We basically told people they couldn't get a ticket if they weren't members. As a result, we had a massive spike in members and half-season tickets." *depressing To clarify: More members and season/half-season ticket sales are excellent. The shame of it is that they used the actual ability to purchase a Man Utd ticket as the leverage to increase those numbers. Really those tickets should have been for long-suffering fans, those of us who have endured matches like last night's, or those that went to the Watford away game earlier in last season's League Cup run. What is said here is that "When we drew Man United" the club immediately saw ££ and prioritised new money from new "fans" without much care for their ludicrously loyal patrons. That is a sign of what would come in the Premier League IMO. I think we all knew that they used it to get it more members etc..I just find it quite sickening to read it. Almost as if we all fell for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 It's a tricky one, given that I remember the days when all the non-playing side of City was run by a group of no doubt well-meaning but ultimately not top-drawer staff, who seemed very keen and nice, but not actually very good. Scott Davidson coming in changed that, because he had a far more commercial mind. I almost believe that you can't be a fan and run the club. You have to be dispassionate, understand your market (us, the fans, sponsors, etc) but also understand the corporate objectives and the need to make the organisation sustainable. Sometimes, it's like with your kids - you have to say "no", even though it's hard and they don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 21 hours ago, Ivorguy said: Really depressing to read. uncomplimentary about the club manager. How must that make LJ feel? Complete lack of understanding on what has to be done to build on success mid season. It wouldn't have been so bad if he had said we weren't really ready for promotion. When I headed a multi million pound concern had my CFO spoken like that he would have been very lucky to have kept his job. A good insight into why some of us are critical of BS Out of context we can't be sure that he was talking about LJ or commenting generally. Nothing to see here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 21 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: Also interesting* to hear the ticketing strategy for the Man Utd game was 100% targeted at maximising revenue. “When we drew Man United in the cup, we came up with something quite neat: if you wanted to get a ticket for the game, you had to be a member. Membership is the next level down from being a season ticket holder. We basically told people they couldn't get a ticket if they weren't members. As a result, we had a massive spike in members and half-season tickets." *depressing To clarify: More members and season/half-season ticket sales are excellent. The shame of it is that they used the actual ability to purchase a Man Utd ticket as the leverage to increase those numbers. Really those tickets should have been for long-suffering fans, those of us who have endured matches like last night's, or those that went to the Watford away game earlier in last season's League Cup run. What is said here is that "When we drew Man United" the club immediately saw ££ and prioritised new money from new "fans" without much care for their ludicrously loyal patrons. That is a sign of what would come in the Premier League IMO. It's , sadly more a sign of having to maximise revenue to be competitive in this division where we're up against bigger , far richer clubs with , in many cases , parachute payments. I am happy that the club is increasing its income . Grow it or die , it's simple. I don't like modern football very much which seems more about the money than sport but equally I wouldn't want my club to look like Ragass Rovers with their tents and incompetent management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: It's , sadly more a sign of having to maximise revenue to be competitive in this division where we're up against bigger , far richer clubs with , in many cases , parachute payments. I am happy that the club is increasing its income . Grow it or die , it's simple. I don't like modern football very much which seems more about the money than sport but equally I wouldn't want my club to look like Ragass Rovers with their tents and incompetent management. Correct on the finance thing. Sadly but true- example in 2016/17, Leeds had a commercial income of 70-80 pct of our whole income. They hadn't even been in PL since 2004- this is what we're up against! There is a third way, which is to bob about in top half League One as a top half club perhaps even making a modest profit each year but none of us would want that- I definitely wouldn't!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Can only assume the cost of the wages for Kent and Diony were higher than we thought- as a young player signed from Everton, Walsh I doubt will be on peanuts either. Then there's the fine for not playing Kent enough and the possible loan fee for Diony. A lot of that piece doesn't surprise me, but 2 interesting lines/quotes in there I think are: Further- if the below is true and accurate- the accounts for last season will look really quite grisly- what we talking, a £20m loss?? Knew it was pretty high, but yeah shows why this summer's business was a total necessity tbh. Fully explains why no real big splash of a signing either. Of course ' success can mean losing more money ' , the stakes are higher, the gains and losses are much more important. We paid what 2 million for Kodjia and sold him for 11 million . Equally we paid 2 million for Engval and sold him for peanuts . Just a few years ago 2 million was a fee that would have bought us a star player and a first team starter . We are trying to compete with the big boys now and that means paying the going rates . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Interesting read thanks for posting I am skeptical as to how much City made the loss, when Bristol Sport were set up to absorb some of the cost of running a club - it's a dodge so we can maximise profits, the umbrella company aren't going to see those profits if the teams are recycling the money that comes in. Not all the money will go into football and stay there, I understand that. He also begins by saying we had to go for it, rather than we did - FWIW I think they tried to go for it, just half heartedly - taking mini-gambles to limit the loss of losing the overall gamble. Kodjia & Diedhiou had been tremendous acquisitions from Ligue 1, Diony was evidently a transfer driven by emotion, without the research that went into JK & FD, but certainly influenced by their results. As for the membership quote; I do think it's a fair assumption to make that the die hards and ludicrous loyals are going to be members if they can make the Man United game. If at the start of the season, I know I can't get to most games, I would get a membership on the basis that I might be able to get a ticket for a massive cup tie. At risk of sitting next to a rugby fan that shouts "Come on Bristol" every fifteen minutes, I would much rather be sat by a new member than an away fan in the wrong end. There is some footballing context that will have been applied to the decision around membership, which will have been sold to the suits as "there's a great opportunity to make money here". They would have preferred that to "can we pay a few guys in the ticket office over time to go trawling through records to establish who is likely to be an away fan buying a ticket in the home end". Quote Part of the business is being opportunist We all know this is the corporate side of football, the point that is usually made is; when we do well, season ticket prices go up, why can't they reduce when we do badly? Opportunism is a sad reality but is it really a surprise? He says that players are on £20k p/w at our level - discounting the anomalies (clubs that think they are exempt from FFP and the teams with less than a couple of magic beans to rub together) I think that is about average. I wouldn't be disappointed if we had offered that to our best players. Otherwise they will not want to sign new deals and bigger clubs will know it's worth sniffing around for the sake of a free transfer. The point about the suits not being of a great quality is evident - using excel for forecasting is all well and good but you'd expect a multi-million pound organisation to have invested in tools that improve on free packages that have been around for 20 years. There are tools that use artificial intelligence to deal with changes in "good or bad news". Using free tools because they are flexible is only the excuse of a cash strapped or public company without the budgets to look forward. Particularly in finance, this is not old news and is on a par with using a fax machine to complete transfers. I read it all as headline grabbing in a small way. Yes, statistically it was the biggest loss, probably in actual terms and as a percentage of turnover. But in context, we have speculated to accumulate a lot more than in recent years to keep up. There were a high number of players that didn't quite work last season and the team has had to account for an unprecedented level of injuries in that time. How many players have we sold for more than our record sale or purchase recently? How many times have we agreed to spend more than we have before? There is more money in the championship than ever before and it is going to cost us to keep in touch but we are selling players without being a selling club and buying players without being unnecessarily frivoulous. Football is not profitable & finance people will instinctively dislike this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 @solihull cider red I think the losses will come out at £18m....that’s pretty big! Take off £4-5m allowable for FFP, and we are around the magic annualised portion of £39m over 3 years. I think that is one reason why we sold the 3 players - notwithstanding 2 if not all 3 wanted to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Believesham Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: @solihull cider red I think the losses will come out at £18m....that’s pretty big! Take off £4-5m allowable for FFP, and we are around the magic annualised portion of £39m over 3 years. I think that is one reason why we sold the 3 players - notwithstanding 2 if not all 3 wanted to leave. All part of football, but agreed - high losses, but I don't think rash overspending is the main cause At least we're doing something about it, unlike 2009-2013 where losses were just accepted - better investment and better player sales strategy has enabled this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laner Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Major Isewater said: Out of context we can't be sure that he was talking about LJ or commenting generally. Nothing to see here. The fact that this bit has been removed from the article (when I read it again this morning) suggests someone wasn't happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: That’s what I was suggesting Ah apologies, I think myself and a few others misunderstood your original post then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Laner said: The fact that this bit has been removed from the article (when I read it again this morning) suggests someone wasn't happy. The whole article seems to have disappeared now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Think it could still work in Cached form, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted October 5, 2018 Admin Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Davefevs said: @solihull cider red I think the losses will come out at £18m....that’s pretty big! Take off £4-5m allowable for FFP, and we are around the magic annualised portion of £39m over 3 years. I think that is one reason why we sold the 3 players - notwithstanding 2 if not all 3 wanted to leave. Spot on @Davefevs I will have a look later for the link (on Twitter) but there is someone on there who puts alot of time into examining each football club It basically said up to this summer it was going to take some real effort to get within the 3 year FFP margins, but once we go through the next few months we will come out of it massively better off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, phantom said: Spot on @Davefevs I will have a look later for the link (on Twitter) but there is someone on there who puts alot of time into examining each football club It basically said up to this summer it was going to take some real effort to get within the 3 year FFP margins, but once we go through the next few months we will come out of it massively better off Kieran Maguire - The Price of Football Or The Swiss Ramble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 hours ago, solihull cider red said: The point about the suits not being of a great quality is evident - using excel for forecasting is all well and good but you'd expect a multi-million pound organisation to have invested in tools that improve on free packages that have been around for 20 years. There are tools that use artificial intelligence to deal with changes in "good or bad news". Using free tools because they are flexible is only the excuse of a cash strapped or public company without the budgets to look forward. Particularly in finance, this is not old news and is on a par with using a fax machine to complete transfers. I'd disagree with that, I have worked with a number of actuarial functions over the year, on both software implementations and data modelling solutions (both stochastic and deterministic) and without exception, every one of them has either not stopped using Excel or only used minimal functionality of any new package and done everything else in Excel using plug-ins such as Power Pivot. Also, you make the point that there has never been more money in the Championship, and with parachute payment that is true for a number of clubs, but equally debt has never been higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderEyed Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said: I'd disagree with that, I have worked with a number of actuarial functions over the year, on both software implementations and data modelling solutions (both stochastic and deterministic) and without exception, every one of them has either not stopped using Excel or only used minimal functionality of any new package and done everything else in Excel using plug-ins such as Power Pivot. Also, you make the point that there has never been more money in the Championship, and with parachute payment that is true for a number of clubs, but equally debt has never been higher. Nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said: Nerd. How very dare you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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