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Does the team need a shakeup- a change of direction?

Mr Popodopolous

By Mr Popodopolous
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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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Admittedly this thread is injury permitting- so some of it maybe academic with our record in the last year or 2. However I was thinking about how best to change the team post Sheffield Wednesday. This is in some ways a rough guide so if Baker and Webster in the wrong CB positions, then fair enough. I'm a 4-4-2 sceptic but willing to admit it could in certain guises work.

Team A)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh O'Dowda

            Taylor

           Weimann

It's certainly not identical but I see potential similarities with the side last season in our golden period. Brownhill can tuck in when necessary, or has that capability at least- Taylor and Weimann can in turn push up to the higher of the 2, or drop off the front- again they have the capability I believe. Probably more so in Weimann's case. Kelly can tuck inside to help make a back 3 if necessary and of course Pack can drop , enable the CB's to split in a back 3 Of our outright wingers, O'Dowda can tuck inside more readily than Paterson or Watkins I feel- this shape has potential to shift quite a bit depending on defensive, midfield or attacking phase I think. it maybe seen as getting out the tombola a bit but it seems versatile to me. Because if Pack drops and Hunt and Kelly push up that's 3-5-2, 3-4-1-2 or 3-4-2-1 potential right there.If Kelly tucks into a back 3, and Hunt pushes up on the right, O'Dowda on the left- Brownhill moves inside and suddenly it's similar or even if Weimann or Taylor a bit deeper 3-5-1-1 which packs the centre when necessary. If O'Dowda can tuck in that's a 4-3-2-1 maybe- with him or a 4-3-1-2 with him behind Weimann and Taylor or him and Taylor helping Weimann in a fluid front 3. Course this would be easier the flexibility side of things if we had Wright, Kalas and Smith available. Also Kelly able to tuck in with O'Dowda more of a winger on the left v Hunt as a wide full back and Brownhill as a wide midfielder able to tuck in- that's asymmetrical to some extent, which could ask the opposition questions they aren't expecting.

Team B)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

             Hegeler

Brownhill Pack Walsh

         Taylor  Weimann

This is a proper fill the middle setup. In the defensive phase, the opposition- and this can work for sure v ballplaying sides- can really crowd the middle. 4 central midfielders can help to fill the space and to keep the ball- as well as pressing it. This has a lot of versatility, but some width would necessarily be sacrificed.In a defensive phase, there could be Brownhill, Pack and Hegeler as the central 3, with Walsh and one of Taylor/Weimann a bit off the front, with the other striker up there pressing from the front- assisted by those behind when necessary. Alternatively, it could morph as/when required into a back 3 (have Hegeler or Pack drop in so the CB's can split) while the full backs push up in a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 with Taylor and Weimann up top and the difference there being Walsh in the central mid 3 or Walsh (or if more about workrate even Brownhill) up there behind Taylor and Weimann. It would be pretty centrally dominated though, not a huge amount of width.

Team C) As above but with the 3 in the centre then Walsh behind Taylor and Weimann- from a starting position, but again the fluidity available in B) wouldn't be hard to replicate with that tweak.

Team D)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

     Brownhill Pack Walsh

Eliasson/Watkins Diedhiou O'Dowda

Straight up- If we are to be more about the width and go all in with Diedhiou (not my preferred choice but a theoretical option) then he needs to be serviced properly and in a shape that plays to his strengths and is to service him fully.  No half-measures- though I wouldn't consider dropping Weimann or Taylor, but it's one theoretical option.

Midfield 3 can keep the ball a bit more, but would need I believe to be fairly rigid because Diedhiou not the most technical- Pack dropping in to create a back 3 the only deviation from this in certain phases. Wingers either up there with Diedhiou to create a bona-fide with wingers 4-3-3 or between the midfield 3 and him to create a 4-3-2-1 in possession and perhaps a 4-5-1 when behind the ball. Also there's a bit more security to press and more room for one to sit in a 3 I think. In this scenario, pick 2 out of Eliasson, Watkins or O'Dowda depending on the opposition and the likely tactics.

Again as stated at the start, I'm working on an assumption here- namely that Maenpaa and Baker fit. Some of the suggestions in this post maybe a bit rotation happy or off the standard- but I definitely think we need a change of direction.

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Fordy62

Fordy62

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7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not up to us is it?

LJ and his coaches will decide on the playing squad when everybody is back from international duty and assuming all return in good shape I can’t see there being changes.

Lovely discussion skills. I bet the OP was desperate for you to reply. 

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Abraham Romanovich

Abraham Romanovich

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10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not up to us is it?

LJ and his coaches will decide on the playing squad when everybody is back from international duty and assuming all return in good shape I can’t see there being changes.

I think most of us are aware that OTIB has no say in team selection or tactics.

Forum definition  = meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

 

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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17 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Just go back to the team that played WBA. But obviously instruct them not to be quite so attacking, and a bit more compact when losing possession. Only change is Kalas is injured, so put Kelly central and Dasilva left back. Do not play Baker.

Agree with a fair bit of that, but is Watkins so capable of tucking in out of possession? O'Dowda maybe but Watkins tucking into a central role, I'm not so sure.

Very easy to get outnumbered centrally when playing with more orthodox full backs and wingers- then when that happens, getting caught in transition a big risk.

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Lrrr

Lrrr

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11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I know what a forum is but when it comes to selection I prefer to trust those that are itk and who are paid to make those decisions.

Theyre far better qualified that we are.

Complete ban on discussion of our team and tactics on robbored's say so :ph34r:

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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15 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Ahh I forgot Watkins played. In that case I'd look at what we did when we looked so good against Swansea. O'Dowda right and Eliasson left. Obviously O'Dowda did not start that game, but he played so well when he replaced Watkins. And like I said, Dasilva at left back, Kelly centrally. Kelly impressed me centrally vs Boro. And Dasilva has looked solid defensively and a threat going forward too, just needs to get on the ball more.

Our shape at Swansea shape excellent- that could be a blueprint. With Da Silva at LB, Kelly central. Could definitely be a way to go. When Kalas returns with Kelly at LB, it will make this idea work a lot better I think- will enable the ability to switch shape quickly in-game.

9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I know what a forum is but when it comes to selection I prefer to trust those that are itk and who are paid to make those decisions.

Theyre far better qualified that we are.

Yeah, ultimately in reality and in paper quals they are far better qualified than we the fans- they see the players in training daily. Yet I cannot (and I'm far from alone in this I dare say)- help but feel like the team is lacking something, that it's missing a trick. Always interesting to discuss ideas about selection and shape IMO. It just doesn't feel quite right ATM.

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Robbored

Robbored

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Our shape at Swansea shape excellent- that could be a blueprint. With Da Silva at LB, Kelly central. Could definitely be a way to go. When Kalas returns with Kelly at LB, it will make this idea work a lot better I think- will enable the ability to switch shape quickly in-game.

Yeah, ultimately in reality and in paper quals they are far better qualified than we the fans- they see the players in training daily. Yet I cannot (and I'm far from alone in this I dare say)- help but feel like the team is lacking something, that it's missing a trick. Always interesting to discuss ideas about selection and shape IMO. It just doesn't feel quite right ATM.

What’s missing is a midfield dynamo - in the Bannan mould. He ran the game in the second half on Sunday. City have nobody like him.

I reckon LJ will struggle to find one in the winter window. I can see a PL youngster coming in on loan.

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Lrrr

Lrrr

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15 minutes ago, Robbored said:

What’s missing is a midfield dynamo - in the Bannan mould. He ran the game in the second half on Sunday. City have nobody like him.

I reckon LJ will struggle to find one in the winter window. I can see a PL youngster coming in on loan.

I know its easy to make anyone look good in a video but I've been interested by Callum Gribbin for a while

 

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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24 minutes ago, Robbored said:

What’s missing is a midfield dynamo - in the Bannan mould. He ran the game in the second half on Sunday. City have nobody like him.

I reckon LJ will struggle to find one in the winter window. I can see a PL youngster coming in on loan.

Bannan is an excellent player and tbh I wish we had made a play for him in the summer- even on loan, because of Sheffield Wednesday's finances it may have tempted them. Okay wishful thinking but they have a big hole to fill in that sense!

Yeah, I'm not sure we'll get one of those experienced midfield dynamos in Jan either, maybe we can get as you say a young PL midfielder on loan- which is why we need to cover the gaps, if we don't have the player then cohesive tactics can help to cover the shortfall. Walsh in a 3 I still think is worth trying, Hegeler sitting between defence and midfield also I think not totally unworthy of consideration. Easier to create triangles in those sorts of shapes. Hope to be pleasantly surprised v Brentford with team and shape- but it'll probably be the mish-mash we've seen lately.

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AshtonGreat

AshtonGreat

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Admittedly this thread is injury permitting- so some of it maybe academic with our record in the last year or 2. However I was thinking about how best to change the team post Sheffield Wednesday. This is in some ways a rough guide so if Baker and Webster in the wrong CB positions, then fair enough. I'm a 4-4-2 sceptic but willing to admit it could in certain guises work.

Team A)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh O'Dowda

            Taylor

           Weimann

It's certainly not identical but I see potential similarities with the side last season in our golden period. Brownhill can tuck in when necessary, or has that capability at least- Taylor and Weimann can in turn push up to the higher of the 2, or drop off the front- again they have the capability I believe. Probably more so in Weimann's case. Kelly can tuck inside to help make a back 3 if necessary and of course Pack can drop , enable the CB's to split in a back 3 Of our outright wingers, O'Dowda can tuck inside more readily than Paterson or Watkins I feel- this shape has potential to shift quite a bit depending on defensive, midfield or attacking phase I think. it maybe seen as getting out the tombola a bit but it seems versatile to me. Because if Pack drops and Hunt and Kelly push up that's 3-5-2, 3-4-1-2 or 3-4-2-1 potential right there.If Kelly tucks into a back 3, and Hunt pushes up on the right, O'Dowda on the left- Brownhill moves inside and suddenly it's similar or even if Weimann or Taylor a bit deeper 3-5-1-1 which packs the centre when necessary. If O'Dowda can tuck in that's a 4-3-2-1 maybe- with him or a 4-3-1-2 with him behind Weimann and Taylor or him and Taylor helping Weimann in a fluid front 3. Course this would be easier the flexibility side of things if we had Wright, Kalas and Smith available. Also Kelly able to tuck in with O'Dowda more of a winger on the left v Hunt as a wide full back and Brownhill as a wide midfielder able to tuck in- that's asymmetrical to some extent, which could ask the opposition questions they aren't expecting.

Team B)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

             Hegeler

Brownhill Pack Walsh

         Taylor  Weimann

This is a proper fill the middle setup. In the defensive phase, the opposition- and this can work for sure v ballplaying sides- can really crowd the middle. 4 central midfielders can help to fill the space and to keep the ball- as well as pressing it. This has a lot of versatility, but some width would necessarily be sacrificed.In a defensive phase, there could be Brownhill, Pack and Hegeler as the central 3, with Walsh and one of Taylor/Weimann a bit off the front, with the other striker up there pressing from the front- assisted by those behind when necessary. Alternatively, it could morph as/when required into a back 3 (have Hegeler or Pack drop in so the CB's can split) while the full backs push up in a 3-5-2 or a 3-4-1-2 with Taylor and Weimann up top and the difference there being Walsh in the central mid 3 or Walsh (or if more about workrate even Brownhill) up there behind Taylor and Weimann. It would be pretty centrally dominated though, not a huge amount of width.

Team C) As above but with the 3 in the centre then Walsh behind Taylor and Weimann- from a starting position, but again the fluidity available in B) wouldn't be hard to replicate with that tweak.

Team D)

           Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Baker Kelly

     Brownhill Pack Walsh

Eliasson/Watkins Diedhiou O'Dowda

Straight up- If we are to be more about the width and go all in with Diedhiou (not my preferred choice but a theoretical option) then he needs to be serviced properly and in a shape that plays to his strengths and is to service him fully.  No half-measures- though I wouldn't consider dropping Weimann or Taylor, but it's one theoretical option.

Midfield 3 can keep the ball a bit more, but would need I believe to be fairly rigid because Diedhiou not the most technical- Pack dropping in to create a back 3 the only deviation from this in certain phases. Wingers either up there with Diedhiou to create a bona-fide with wingers 4-3-3 or between the midfield 3 and him to create a 4-3-2-1 in possession and perhaps a 4-5-1 when behind the ball. Also there's a bit more security to press and more room for one to sit in a 3 I think. In this scenario, pick 2 out of Eliasson, Watkins or O'Dowda depending on the opposition and the likely tactics.

Again as stated at the start, I'm working on an assumption here- namely that Maenpaa and Baker fit. Some of the suggestions in this post maybe a bit rotation happy or off the standard- but I definitely think we need a change of direction.

O'Dowda as a winger? I don't think so

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Portland Bill

Portland Bill

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Posted
2 hours ago, phantom said:

Have we had a settled side at all recently, it seems like we are having numerous personnel and formation changes every game 

Except for the first half of last season, when the team picked itself and did really well,  have we actually otherwise had a settled team over the last 3 years!

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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5 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Except for the first half of last season, when the team picked itself and did really well,  have we actually otherwise had a settled team over the last 3 years!

Would say it was more settled not quite for the first half of last season but when the injuries kicked in.

That's when we looked our best too for the most part!

Paterson behind Reid > Reid and Diedhiou IMO. Actually in that overall excellent first half of the season, some of our more disappointing displays came with the traditional 4-4-2, think Leeds and Preston at home- and the 2nd half at Birmingham away when we failed to stiffen the midfield correctly. Look back at each game in that first half and there's a correlation (not always matching) between setup and display.

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Portland Bill

Portland Bill

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

What’s missing is a midfield dynamo - in the Bannan mould. He ran the game in the second half on Sunday. City have nobody like him.

I reckon LJ will struggle to find one in the winter window. I can see a PL youngster coming in on loan.

Yeah, let’s bring in a young ball playing good passer, someone who is nice and tidy and a very good short passer who likes to keep the ball moving ................someone like that lad Walsh who used to play for Everton!!!

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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2 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Yeah, let’s bring in a young ball playing good passer, someone who is nice and tidy and a very good short passer who likes to keep the ball moving ................someone like that lad Walsh who used to play for Everton!!!

Good point that, utilised in a 3 I think he'd be decent and so would the team- but Robbored and Super don't appear to agree. Kilkenny a funny comparison by the latter.

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Portland Bill

Portland Bill

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Good point that, utilised in a 3 I think he'd be decent and so would the team- but Robbored and Super don't appear to agree. Kilkenny a funny comparison by the latter.

What I’ve seen of Walsh always looked good, nothing fancy just keeps the ball ticking over and always makes himself available.

Something that imo we have been lacking recently.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

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45 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

In a team that scores nowhere near enough goals, O'Dowda doesn't possess the end product to warrant a place in attack. Ditto Taylor. Where would I play them? Not in the first XI

What shape would you go with then? Interested.

Would you be happy to risk conceding the midfield with 2 in the centre, combined with wingers who don't defend properly, or who aren't so comfortable with coming inside. Or indeed for wingers, maybe read wide midfielders.

@Portland Bill Agree on Walsh, would keep it ticking over quite well and as you say makes himself available.

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Ivorguy

Ivorguy

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I think most of our squad is much of a muchness.  Improvement must come from the coaching staff, and not just swapping one ordinary championship player for another.  The coaches need to focus on the strengths and weaknesses the squad have, maximise those strengths through thought out tactics for each game, with planned fallback tactical positions.  

They also need to Coach some basics.  Passing, centring, shooting, set pieces etc.  

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