Hypothetical

[Alessandro]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

Fair point, but these are the players signed in the window going into the Champ he had...:

Kodjia

Fredericks 

Hamer

Bennett

Moore

Robinson

Baker

For a combined cost of around £3.5m.

Compare that to Johnson's first Summer window, again in the Champ...:

Tomlin

Magnússon

Moore

Engvall

O'Dowda

Brownhill

O'Neill

Matthews

Paterson

Abraham

Lucic

For a combined cost of around around £11m.

Of the above, within Cotts transfers, i'd argue that Kodjia, Fredericks, Robinson, Baker (obv), and potentially even Moore and Bennett get into our 11/match day squad at least.

Of the above, within LJ transfers, only 3 are still with us, and only 1 of them is a 'must have' in our 11. OK we sold Tomlin and Maggy for what we bought them for, but no arguing that LJ has been trusted far far more with budget than Cotts did, on what basis..?

 

 

Mark Ashton

[maxjak]

16 hours ago, Selred said:

Only players from abroad were; Hegeler, Djuric, Engvall, Elliasson, Pisano, Magnússon, Diedhiou, Diony & Giefer.

Engvall, Diony and Giefer were absolute awful. 

Hegeler and Pisano were unlucky with injuries. 

Maggers, Djuric and Diedhiou are/were not bad.

Elliasson looks to be a good buy. 

Now you look at some of the other players brought in by Johnson; Baker, Moore, Walsh, Watkins, Taylor etc. Do they really stand out above the rest? No, not enough to say we should be buying British only. 

Look at the success Norwich are currently having for example. 

Helps having a tactically astute German coach/manager............shrewd acquisition IMHO.

[Ashton98]

I think the big difference between the two teams is I was always excited watching cotts team play. For some reason this Johnson team just seems stale this season. I think the villa game was the last game I was really excited for.

[The Original OTIB]

13 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I think this is a massively key point overlooked here in this discussion.

There is a big difference between buying in league one vs. buying in the championship.

Our budget went much further there than it does in the championship. 

What does that mean then? Well those players listed as transfer flops here were A) Inherently more of a gamble because we’ve had to look for value for money B) and most importantly, most likely the best available to us, on our budget, who were keen and available to sign.

Just consider Hugill (£10m) and Marriott (£5m) as two examples of players we went after but got out bid for. Instead we have Famara (£5m) and Eisa (£1.5m) and everyone says they’re not good enough signings. Or are they the best we can currently do? It’s one thing identifying a player and another affording them. 

I think that Ronan Curtis at Portsmouth is similar to Hugill and could be a bargain for somebody at the end of the season. Rough around the edges but improving.

[The Original OTIB]

2 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I think that Ronan Curtis at Portsmouth is similar to Hugill and could be a bargain for somebody at the end of the season. Rough around the edges but improving.

go to 1:40 for a very good reason to like the bloke!

 

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Fair point, but these are the players signed in the window going into the Champ he had...:

Kodjia

Fredericks 

Hamer

Bennett

Moore

Robinson

Baker

For a combined cost of around £3.5m.

Compare that to Johnson's first Summer window, again in the Champ...:

Tomlin

Magnússon

Moore

Engvall

O'Dowda

Brownhill

O'Neill

Matthews

Paterson

Abraham

Lucic

For a combined cost of around around £11m.

Of the above, within Cotts transfers, i'd argue that Kodjia, Fredericks, Robinson, Baker (obv), and potentially even Moore and Bennett get into our 11/match day squad at least.

Of the above, within LJ transfers, only 3 are still with us, and only 1 of them is a 'must have' in our 11. OK we sold Tomlin and Maggy for what we bought them for, but no arguing that LJ has been trusted far far more with budget than Cotts did, on what basis..?

 

 

Thing is that was the big problem on cotts transfers and LJ's first summer window. LJ was left with a first team squad of about 17 players and therefore had to sign quantity, we couldn't go out and sign 7 first team level players as it would have cost north of £20m for them so we had to the strategy of cheaper players we hoped to develop to actually have a full squad.

[bcfcredandwhite]

Cotts built a fantastic League 1 side, but couldn’t make them adjust to the Championship. 

Thats why we were in the bottom 3 when he was sacked. 

His players - which included those good players already mentioned - only fulfilled their Championship potential AFTER Cotts had gone. 

I was relieved when he was sacked - and if we ever drop into the bottom 3 again I will be calling for a change once more. 

LJ has many faults, but he is better equipped for this league than Cotts. 

How has Cotts fared at other clubs in this league? Not well it’s fair to say. He is a League 1 Grand Master - a bit like Warnock is to the Championship (VERY different playing styles, but hopefully you’ll get what I mean). 

As to money - Cotts had money (£11m I think) for Dwight Gayle and the other bloke who’s name escapes me, but they didn’t want to sign. If only ONE of them had, it would STILL be our biggest signing EVER. 

I’ll always love Cotts for getting us out of L1 so spectacularly - with a double, but he can’t handle this league. 

[And Its Smith]

Probably the strangest thread on here for a long time. People are either awfully forgetful or are being purposefully ignorant to suit their Johnson agenda

[Alessandro]

13 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Probably the strangest thread on here for a long time. People are either awfully forgetful or are being purposefully ignorant to suit their Johnson agenda

Couldn't agree more. Much like the "Job's for the boys" thread that conveniently states rumours as facts, re-writes history and yet people say things like it was the best post they've ever read on OTIB.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

4 hours ago, EmissionImpossible said:

No, no effect whatsoever. To me that’s a lazy view that people from outside of Britain would be disruptive to the team with no facts to back it up.  Not sure what made you bring it up initially as no one had suggested it. It may well to be with the standard of players we have brought in but nationality or place of birth wouldn’t have impact. Curious to know why you thought it could be the case?

I brought it up because our last successful team was made up exclusively of British and Irish players so wondered why we have moved away from something that worked well for us.

I thought it was worth discussing that we have signed quite a lot of foreign players and most have not worked out.

It was just an observation I'm not trying to be controversial. I don't care where our players come from as long as they work hard and give their all.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

There's a certain level of nostalgia going on here and I get that a lot of it is a bit misplaced.

However the reason people are looking back on the cotts period with fondness is that I guess the general feeling is a lot of people aren't enjoying their football right now and don't believe in this team and/or coach. 

For me I'm just bored with this City/Johnson era and like to look back on a time when I was very proud of the club and had a lot of reapect for the team and the manager. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

So funny , that yet again the usual suspects start shouting ‘ agenda , agenda , anti - Lee agenda ‘

for anyone suggesting SCs side would win 

 

No chance of ever acceptimg that many simply don’t rate Johnson or his abilities

 

New tactic - blame everything on Ashton

 

 

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

For me I'm just bored with this City/Johnson era and like to look back on a time when I was very proud of the club and had a lot of reapect for the team and the manager. 

For me the most enjoyable period - although he didn’t win anything - was under Danny Wilson. Quick attacking football, exciting to watch and I often left AG with that ‘buzz’

That buzz was lost under Senior, back for while last season, especially the cup run but in recent times we’ve returned to the drab, pedestrian and dreary football that we saw under Senior - Sadly LJ is becoming a clone of his dad...........

[Fordy62]

19 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

I’d take Maenpaa for FF, Fammy for Aaron (wasn’t really up to Championship), Webster for Ayling (just) and Pato for Freeman (form aside Pato is the better player imo). Funny how people see it different. I’d have Flint, Joe and Kodjia back in a heartbeat though 

Pato is better than QPR player of the year Freeman?

just blown your cover Lee. 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

For me the most enjoyable period - although he didn’t win anything - was under Danny Wilson. Quick attacking football, exciting to watch and I often left AG with that ‘buzz’

That buzz was lost under Senior, back for while last season, especially the cup run but in recent times we’ve returned to the drab, pedestrian and dreary football that we saw under Senior - Sadly LJ is becoming a clone of his dad...........

The Danny Wilson era was before my time following the club. I've only ever had one manager I've liked.

[Fordy62]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

but no arguing that LJ has been trusted far far more with budget than Cotts did, on what basis..?

 

 

Reach arounds. Obviously. 

[Alessandro]

11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

So funny , that yet again the usual suspects start shouting ‘ agenda , agenda , anti - Lee agenda ‘

for anyone suggesting SCs side would win 

 

No chance of ever acceptimg that many simply don’t rate Johnson or his abilities

 

New tactic - blame everything on Ashton

 

 

The discussion was whether LJ's team would beat SC's team. 

Didn't see anyone mention anti-Lee agenda?! Plenty have critiqued both SC and LJ in this thread. 

Plenty of points made on each side, so don't know why the need for the 'accepting' comment either. Clearly some seem to be equally unable to accept that people didn't rate SC in the championship and can back up that argument with some cold hard stats. 

As i'm the only one to mention Mark Ashton, i'm presuming the last comment is slyly aimed at me? You could have replied directly to me and I could have said that I was not blaming Ashton for anything, simply stating to another poster that our recruitment policy had changed markedly from SC's time to LJ's time, because of Mark Ashton - so you've over reacted to that there.

If you weren't aiming it at me, happy for you to explain what you mean't and to who.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

The discussion was whether LJ's team would beat SC's team. 

Didn't see anyone mention anti-Lee agenda?! Plenty have critiqued both SC and LJ in this thread. 

Plenty of points made on each side, so don't know why the need for the 'accepting' comment either. Clearly some seem to be equally unable to accept that people didn't rate SC in the championship and can back up that argument with some cold hard stats. 

As i'm the only one to mention Mark Ashton, i'm presuming the last comment is slyly aimed at me? You could have replied directly to me and I could have said that I was not blaming Ashton for anything, simply stating to another poster that our recruitment policy had changed markedly from SC's time to LJ's time, because of Mark Ashton - so you've over reacted to that there.

If you weren't aiming it at me, happy for you to explain what you mean't and to who.

 

I’d try re reading the thread 

Quite a few

and , Strange  comment really , considering your post and response to another’s only an hour ago 

 

 

 

[Fordy62]

I’m going to give the combined XI a go:

 

Fielding 

 

Ayling

Flint 

Webster

Kelly

 

Freeman

Smith 

Pack

Bryan

 

Kodjia

Reid

(I know that’s slightly outside the criteria)

 

That team would give our current team such a hiding. If only Cotts had been backed. 

It really didn’t need ripping up like Johnson has done did it?

[Alessandro]

10 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I’d try re reading the thread 

Quite a few

and , Strange  comment really , considering your post and response to another’s only an hour ago 

 

 

 

Do you know what, hands up, I mis-read that, despite replying to it. I was thinking about the awfully forgetful/purposely ignorant (ironic!) part. Genuinely I re-read the thread to look for anyone saying anti-LJ and missed the post i'd agreed with! Fair cop.

Rest of my reply still stands though. 

[spudski]

This thread is hilarious...what's the point of it? What is it trying to prove?

[Alessandro]

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m going to give the combined XI a go:

 

Fielding 

 

Ayling

Flint 

Webster

Kelly

 

Freeman

Smith 

Pack

Bryan

 

Kodjia

Reid

(I know that’s slightly outside the criteria)

 

That team would give our current team such a hiding. If only Cotts had been backed. 

It really didn’t need ripping up like Johnson has done did it?

To be fair, who knows whether SC would have had to sell Kodjia, Reid, Bryan and Flint too and how that would have effected his squad? He probably would have had to sell them so it kind of ruins that point.

Ayling is a funny one, marmite player here, but he's gone on to do well at Leeds and that makes it look like a tick against LJ when we've not replaced him ever really.

Freeman refused to sign a contract and wouldn't be in my team personally. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

19 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

I’d take Maenpaa for FF, Fammy for Aaron (wasn’t really up to Championship), Webster for Ayling (just) and Pato for Freeman (form aside Pato is the better player imo). Funny how people see it different. I’d have Flint, Joe and Kodjia back in a heartbeat though 

Ironically , IIRC Wilbraham got a few crucial late winners that went a long way to  save us From relegation

that ?

(Or ? The  following season ?)

Id have the Wilbs Of L1 Or the following season over Famara tomorrow

 

 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

To be fair, who knows whether SC would have had to sell Kodjia, Reid, Bryan and Flint too and how that would have effected his squad? He probably would have had to sell them so it kind of ruins that point.

Ayling is a funny one, marmite player here, but he's gone on to do well at Leeds and that makes it look like a tick against LJ when we've not replaced him ever really.

Freeman refused to sign a contract and wouldn't be in my team personally. 

Re: Freeman. I think any of us are wrong to suggest we wouldn’t be better off with a player who went on to become his team’s player of the season immediately after he left. Like many, he just went downhill under Johnson and alarmingly it’s not a trend that has stopped. 

[RumRed]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

This thread is hilarious...what's the point of it? What is it trying to prove?

My guess is it’s not trying to ‘prove’ anything, it’s just a thread.  And a hypothetical one at that.

[Alessandro]

5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Re: Freeman. I think any of us are wrong to suggest we wouldn’t be better off with a player who went on to become his team’s player of the season immediately after he left. Like many, he just went downhill under Johnson and alarmingly it’s not a trend that has stopped. 

I'm not sure he went downhill under LJ when he was already what Paterson is today, under SC in the first half of the 15/16 season. All step-overs and no end product.

Fair play he went on to have a good season at QPR,  but he ****** us over and almost did the same to QPR when Boro came sniffing. Out for himself IMO.

The many that have gone downhill under LJ is IMO debatable. Under LJ he developed Flint, Bryan and Reid into multimillion pounds worth. Kelly, Eliasson, Walsh are all coming on. COD has suffered with injuries. Pack and Brownhill had interest last summer. So that's many doing OK or improving. The alarming trend of players going backwards is a few yes, Baker maybe. Famara has been hot and cold most of his time here. Majority of those who you could say have gone down hill or more in the 'haven't improved' bracket TBF, but that's football. Does every improve or fulfil their potential in football. 

[spudski]

12 minutes ago, RumRed said:

My guess is it’s not trying to ‘prove’ anything, it’s just a thread.  And a hypothetical one at that.

Shame some posters aren't being hypothetical then

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Mark Ashton

Mmmm, was chatting to someone last night who mentioned he (MA) was heaviliy involved in recruitment before Cotts arrived, and that was disastrous.  He may we’ll be the weak (bullshitting) link.

17 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m going to give the combined XI a go:

 

Fielding 

 

Ayling

Flint 

Webster

Kelly

 

Freeman

Smith 

Pack

Bryan

 

Kodjia

Reid

(I know that’s slightly outside the criteria)

 

That team would give our current team such a hiding. If only Cotts had been backed. 

It really didn’t need ripping up like Johnson has done did it?

Not a lot wrong with that team.  I always though the 17/18 Reid would be a better partner for Kodjia than Reid and Tammy.  I saw glimpses of Reid / Kodjia in 15/16 (MKD 1st half, where he played behind JK) and we “battered them” drawing 1-1 . We just didn’t take our chances.

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

This thread is hilarious...what's the point of it? What is it trying to prove?

No agenda, I started the thread and it’s had some decent, sensible comments.  As you’ll see from Bob and Allesandro it’s stayed on track.  I thought it was an interesting topic.

[JamesBCFC]

3 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep, the one with eight caps for Italy at various levels....

Bit dishonest to classify a half British, dual nationality person as non-British...

 

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Shame some posters aren't being hypothetical then

None of this is real unless we can bring the two teams together, might prove tricky!