Emiliano Sala

[ExiledAjax]

7 minutes ago, downendcity said:

This from the BBC website back in 2019:

Cardiff City are set to claim the deal to buy Emiliano Sala from Nantes for £15m was not legally binding.

The Bluebirds are refusing to make interim payments for the striker, who died in a plane crash on 21 January.

Cardiff will tell world football's governing body Fifa that Nantes' conditions for completion of the deal were not fulfilled and Sala was not registered as a Premier League player.

This was, of course, at the time that Cardiff were trying to wriggle out of paying the transfer fee.

If, at the time of the player's death, Cardiff thought that the sale was not legally binding  due to Nantes' conditions for completion having not been met, and that the player was not registered as a premier league player, then, if all Cardiff staff understood that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, then Sala could not have been insured as Cardiff said the signing was not completed!

Although since then the FIFA Tribunal and then CAS have determined that the signing was complete. So at that point the question of insurance does arise.

The insurance case is in the High Court as a domestic UK dispute over which FIFA has no jurisdiction.

So yes whilst they have changed their story, it's because of the conclusion of related cases. Their lawyers are basically going down the list of attempts they can make to either get out, or cover the cost of, signing Sala.

Honestly the total legal fees spent so far must be in the millions.

Edited January 19, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Lanterne Rouge]

12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Although since then the FIFA Tribunal and then CAS have determined that the signing was complete. So at that point the question of insurance does arise.

The insurance case is in the High Court as a domestic UK dispute over which FIFA has no jurisdiction.

So yes whilst they have changed their story, it's because of the conclusion of related cases. Their lawyers are basically going down the list of attempts they can make to either get out, or cover the cost of, signing Sala.

Honestly the total legal fees spent so far must be in the millions.

This. They could have just paid the fee to Nantes and come out of this looking like the good guys and it would have been cheaper in the long run.

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sorry, are they commenting on an ongoing case? Whatever that last paragraph might say I'd suggest that they clearly are trying to litigate in the media. If what they say is true then they need only say it in court and they will be vindicated.

As an aside, my reading of that is that Cardiff didn't read, or didn't understand, or didn't pay attention to, the terms of their insurance. Bad luck, but don't sue your insurers for your own incompetence.

They are biting back at the claims they tried to insure Sala after the fact, not sure how far the case has got. 
But saying they are bringing a case against the insurers for negligence, and saying they understood from their Brokers they were insured, certainly seems like they are trying sway opinion .  So they are playing games in the Media , but they have tried blaming everyone but themselves so far and they are running out of targets.

So I think the statement was , initially , to knock back the reports of insurance fraud.

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

This. They could have just paid the fee to Nantes and come out of this looking like the good guys and it would have been cheaper in the long run.

Yep. Becoming increasingly clear that from every perspective: legal, financial, optical, moral and ethical they made the wrong decision right at the very start.

Should have just paid up to Nantes and done all they could to support Sala's grieving family.

Edited January 19, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[BCFC Rich]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Right, trying to be even handed. They have put out a statement...

There has been selective reporting today of the defence filed against the claim the Club has brought against its insurance brokers for doing their job negligently.

The Club did not try to insure Emiliano after the plane crash.

All Cardiff City Football Club staff understood from its broker that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, and the case arises from learning they were not.

It will reply to the allegations made in the defence that are untrue, or portrayed out of context, in the court proceedings and will not litigate this case in the media.

I think 5most Clubs would look into what had gone on, but there is no way Cardiff come out of this looking good. 

They spe3nt years denying they had actually completed signing him, and shouldn't have to pay. And are now claim they thought he was insured simply because he had signed? F@#4 ing disgusting. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Be interested in how their supporters at BBC Wales Sport spin this, Nonces are to blame, probably.

Fixed!

[alexukhc]

Will this man ever be laid to rest peacefully, like it’s said previously just pay Nantes and be done with it, all these court appearances must be costing more than he cost overall 

no compassion just greed, hang your heads in shame Cardiff

his poor family

[Mr Popodopolous]

Two notes from Cardiff's accounts relating to Sala.

1) They have appealed to the Swiss Federal Court, mentions that it could be sent back to the CAS potentially.

2) They are- diddums- querying whether the League putting them under embargo in January owing to non payment was fair or proportionate etc as they couldn't strengthen their squad properly and were disadvantaged.

Pay your bills as they fall due!! Yes I know they as a matter of convenience paid 1st installment but obligations are not optional.

Yes how dare the League uphold their own regs. 

Entitled feckers!! The brass neck, I'm almost lost for words.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Eddie Hitler]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Two notes from Cardiff's accounts relating to Sala.

1) They have appealed to the Swiss Federal Court, mentions that it could be sent back to the CAS potentially.

2) They are- diddums- querying whether the League putting them under embargo in January owing to non payment was fair or proportionate etc as they couldn't strengthen their squad properly and were disadvantaged.

Pay your bills as they fall due!! Yes I know they as a matter of convenience paid 1st installment but obligations are not optional.

Yes how dare the League uphold their own regs. 

Entitled feckers!! The brass neck, I'm almost lost for words.

 

If it was a proper business with shareholders then trying every option is absolutely the duty of the board and executive.

This however is not a proper business, it is the personal possession of Vincent Tan and it has therefore been his choice, not that of "Cardiff", to take all of these actions.

If it was Bristol City rather than Cardiff do you think that the Lansdown family would have been trying it on to this degree?

I don't.

Though I certainly would have pursued the insurance broker as to when new players needed to be declared to the policy, and whether this was made clear 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

If it was a proper business with shareholders then trying every option is absolutely the duty of the board and executive.

This however is not a proper business, it is the personal possession of Vincent Tan and it has therefore been his choice, not that of "Cardiff", to take all of these actions.

If it was Bristol City rather than Cardiff do you think that the Lansdown family would have been trying it on to this degree?

I don't.

Though I certainly would have pursued the insurance broker as to when new players needed to be declared to the policy, and whether this was made clear 

 

Swiss Federal Court is fair on one level though I struggle to see their case  it's more the whinging about inability to strengthen properly being disproportionate that gets me.

Arrogance and ignorance aplenty in that little moan by them, it's so obvious that if a club cannot or will not meet their financial obligations following a judgement then they won't be allowed to add.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Eddie Hitler]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Swiss Federal Court is fair on one level though I struggle to see their case  it's more the whinging about inability to strengthen properly being disproportionate that gets me.

Arrogance and ignorance aplenty in that little moan by them, it's so obvious that if a club cannot or will not meet their financial obligations following a judgement then they won't be allowed to add.

 

I don't know if you are familiar with the Count Arthur Strong Radio Show but there is one scene where he is in with Citizens' Aid trying, unsuccessfully, to get them to bring a prosecution against a charity shop which has refused to exchange his 50p jumper without a receipt and saying, correctly, that he has tried this on sveral times before but successfully those times.

He starts to suggest lines of prosecution "slander, treason, high treason, larceny. libel!".

I visualise Tan in with his lawyers pacing about whilst doing similar "getting us relegated, damage to the plane, not telling us we had to tell our insurers".

[Mr Popodopolous]

As I extrapolated from the accounts the other day, the cheek of the tossers.

Says they sent a letter to the EFL and received a reply. I can think of  suitable two word, at a push four word one.

They did pay 1st instalment but at the same time it took 4 years of wrangling, foot dragging, legal threats etc which are still ongoing btw.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64902237

On 07/03/2023 at 18:16, Eddie Hitler said:

I don't know if you are familiar with the Count Arthur Strong Radio Show but there is one scene where he is in with Citizens' Aid trying, unsuccessfully, to get them to bring a prosecution against a charity shop which has refused to exchange his 50p jumper without a receipt and saying, correctly, that he has tried this on sveral times before but successfully those times.

He starts to suggest lines of prosecution "slander, treason, high treason, larceny. libel!".

I visualise Tan in with his lawyers pacing about whilst doing similar "getting us relegated, damage to the plane, not telling us we had to tell our insurers".

Thanks, will check this out. Sounds interesting and in this case, pertinent too.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Who knows, maybe they have a point but the crux of the dispute seems to be:

1) An EFL rule that says that if a club are late beyond a certain point with instalments then there is a 3 window embargo to the extent that fees cannot be paid.

Vs

2) The position of Cardiff which is that "We paid that 1st instalment so there is no purpose to this rule".

However you can't just pick and choose when to meet your financial obligations. Or can you?

Edited March 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not digging out Cardiff alone but their ownership have form for this kinda thing.

In 2014-15 they under the one year FFP rules they fell foul post PL relegation and were hit with a a January 2016 embargo.

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/2016/january/club-statement-15th-january-2016

They sought a loophole of course- writing off debt through profit and loss. Think they disputed it a bit, or made a show of it anyway.

Notes 3 and 7. Both related to the owner, both argued for by Cardiff- EFL rightly disallowed both.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2023/cardiff-city-owner-vincent-tan-to-take-further-legal-action-against-nantes-in-emiliano-sala-transfer-case/

Tan talking about suing Nantes or exploring the possibility.

I honestly think that their FFP compliance to next season is contingent on a favourable Sala judgement.  Which is disgusting tbh but either a reversal of Impairment, partial or full or some sort of compensation.

To reverse the FFP and enable Tan to spend again- or in other words an equivalent amount to the third and final year.

Failing that they will be suing Nantes and he references €100m as lost revenue etc??

Edited March 25, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seems Cardiff are taking it to the French Courts??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65533561

[Mr Popodopolous]

In fairness, I have little time for Cardiff as a club, hierarchy or a lot of their fans but a chunk of their fans based on online chatter do seem to find their stance to be the wrong one.

Admin on Cardiff City Forum thinks they'll lose this case too and be owing costs etc. He has predicted they would lose each and every case so far.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

I've never really understood how they thought they could worm their way out of paying.
It seems the deal was done and as far as I can see, as he was on his way to train with them the registration was done. So they "owned" the player. 
I totally understand feeling bad about what happened and having nothing to show for a big outlay. But it does feel a little off.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's not just work out of paying but implied they are seeking anything between £20-200m??

In the case of the latter it woukd be argued that the negligence or alleged negligence of Nantes cost them the transfer and therefore PL survival and probably a mix of Tv money, a further year of Parachute Payments and all the extra financial gains of PL football for another year.

Seems speculative to say the least...

[The Gasbuster]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I've never really understood how they thought they could worm their way out of paying.
It seems the deal was done and as far as I can see, as he was on his way to train with them the registration was done. So they "owned" the player. 
I totally understand feeling bad about what happened and having nothing to show for a big outlay. But it does feel a little off.

It's Cardiff remember.

Sam Hammam did all he could to delay paying off debts accumulated during his tenure. Those debts were passed on to Tan , IIRC as Hammam carried on signing players regardless. Thorne and Kavanagh being two examples off the top of my head.

Edited May 9, 2023 by The Gasbuster

[AberRed]

I live in Cardiff so quite a lot of my friends and neighbours are Cardiff fans.

I don't know a single person who thinks their club have approached this in the right way. The reputational damage they've done to themselves has been so much worse than simply paying the money 4 years ago would have been.

And this only 24 hours after they managed to stay up purely because of another club's points deduction. Absolute mess of a club.

[CyderInACan]

Jesus. Cardiff really are the lowest of the low, aren’t they. There’s a word for people like that. You know the one I mean. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seems the Cardiff hierarchy are and have been doubling down and now there is a more concrete number.

[Bryans Left Peg]

39 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems the Cardiff hierarchy are and have been doubling down and now there is a more concrete number.

A club without shame, honour, class or respect.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Bryans Left Peg

[Baba Yaga]

To be honest if it was my business I would have probably tried to wriggle out of paying the £15m transfer fee but I'm now struggling to see why they are prolonging this further. Things are looking very ugly now from Cardiff and I would guess that the only winners at this point are going to be the lawyers.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Baba Yaga said:

To be honest if it was my business I would have probably tried to wriggle out of paying the £15m transfer fee but I'm now struggling to see why they are prolonging this further. Things are looking very ugly now from Cardiff and I would guess that the only winners at this point are going to be the lawyers.

Either the hierarchy are instructing the lawyers to persist, or the lawyers keep telling them there's a chance of winning. Neither seem to be the right course of action now. 

 

54 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems the Cardiff hierarchy are and have been doubling down and now there is a more concrete number.

"The Welsh side notably claim that – based on their analysis of expected goals and expected points – Sala’s arrival would have given them the two points necessary to keep the club in Premier League for at least another season."

First example of xG being used in court? Could be interesting if it's an argument that's accepted. French court so no precedent would be created in English law, but would be interesting to read the discussion.

[Mr Popodopolous]

51 minutes ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

A club without shame, honour, class or respect.

Yes. Their hierarchy seem to be pushing this and pushing this. My suspicion is that it is in some way linked to trying to get some kind of windfall as from 2021-22 until such time as they return to the PL and or the distribution model changes they will be stuck on championship money and they do not like it. Competitive advantage eroded!

Perhaps there is also an FFP consideration as I don't like the look of their position to the 2023-24 season.

34 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

"The Welsh side notably claim that – based on their analysis of expected goals and expected points – Sala’s arrival would have given them the two points necessary to keep the club in Premier League for at least another season."

First example of xG being used in court? Could be interesting if it's an argument that's accepted. French court so no precedent would be created in English law, but would be interesting to read the discussion.

It certainly is. I do enjoy xG etc but this feels very remote and spurious to me. It's such a counterfactual, Derby v Middlesbrough was spurious in some ways, this is spurious on steroids!

Sala (RIP) anything could have happened being football but to name a few:

*He could have got double figures and propelled them up the League to even outside Europa League  contention.

*He could have twisted his ankle or had a nasty fall or bad tackle or some accident on his first day of training and been out for months.

*He could have had a slow start, been sold on relegation and then really hit the ground running at his new PL club. The 6 months of acclimitisation proving invaluable.

*Could have again started slowly, with no tangible contributions but Cardiff scrape survival despite this and then the following season he is good to excellent. Or flops- or is decent but just doesn't suit the English game.

So, so, so many variables it feels incredibly remote and clutching this.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

So, so, so many variables it feels incredibly remote and clutching this.

I don't know much about the French court attitude to indirect or consequential losses, but if this was run in the UK I'd be amazed if it succeeded. As you say the losses are too remote and too uncertain.

[PHILINFRANCE]

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't know much about the French court attitude to indirect or consequential losses, but if this was run in the UK I'd be amazed if it succeeded. As you say the losses are too remote and too uncertain.

The first hearing is ‘scheduled’ for June this year, but, given my experience of French legal proceedings, I should not be at all surprised if it is postponed, most likely until at least the summer holidays are over.

The hearing, whenever it is, will be at the TGI, the best English equivalent I can think of is Crown Court, and again based on my experience, any verdict is likely to be the subject of an appeal - it is not uncommon at this level to find TGI judges without a detailed knowledge of what is clearly a slightly unusual and complicated case.

Any appeal will not be heard until 2024 at the earliest.

[supercidered]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Either the hierarchy are instructing the lawyers to persist, or the lawyers keep telling them there's a chance of winning. Neither seem to be the right course of action now. 

 

"The Welsh side notably claim that – based on their analysis of expected goals and expected points – Sala’s arrival would have given them the two points necessary to keep the club in Premier League for at least another season."

First example of xG being used in court? Could be interesting if it's an argument that's accepted. French court so no precedent would be created in English law, but would be interesting to read the discussion.

Thanks for posting this and I'm no lawyer but FFS there is no way xG would hold water in any court as an argument to get any level of compensation let alone 110 Million Euro. 

The club has and always will be a vile little turd lurking in the bowels of South Wales.

They will lose the case and will have a big f@ck off legal bill to find as well.