Emiliano Sala

[GrahamC]

26 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting line on Football League highlights tonight.

Cardiff apparently will be under a transfer embargo in January owing to the failure to pay the first instalment of the Sala fee.

It’s ok, their mates at BBC Sport Wales are already reporting that they’re confident they’ll still be able to sign players next month.

Shame they have never once held them to account for their disgusting behaviour throughout this whole episode.

[CyderInACan]

On 17/12/2022 at 23:08, GrahamC said:

It’s ok, their mates at BBC Sport Wales are already reporting that they’re confident they’ll still be able to sign players next month.

Shame they have never once held them to account for their disgusting behaviour throughout this whole episode.

Tweet from earlier today.  Good. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by CyderInACan

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

On 13/12/2022 at 18:28, TDarwall said:

@Harry

@Eddie Hitler

I did write Pro Football schemes at Lloyd's but haven't since late 2018. Ironically I did write the Cardiff scheme (gotta pay the bills somehow) however the scheme I did was death by natural causes only. The Accidental Death element was insured elsewhere under a Personal Accident policy (because they have higher Catastrophe RI cover, that's a snippet for insurance nerds only!).  As the policies were so bespoke they generally had their own t&c's with regards to new joiners, however for exposure mgmt & reinsurance purposes it's quite likely that insurers need to be advised of new players.

I would also add, an insurer expects the policyholder to take reasonable steps to avoid a loss..... allowing your record transfer to be transported in the way he was, probably doesn't meet that test!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn’t realise there were so many Insurance nerds on OTIB… 

Wonderful industry to be in, sounds boring as *beep* from the outside though.

On the above, the wording will have to watertight on the reasonable steps. I.e. don’t let a Rovers lawyer write the wording… I’d be happy to challenge the definition of reasonable. As long as the club hired an experienced pilot and a reputable company for the plane I would say that’s reasonable. If the owner of the plane hasn’t maintained or serviced the plane I would argue that’s not the clubs fault. Saying that, I don’t know the ins and outs of the incident, who was hired and who hired who or who was acting on behalf of the club. 

Glad they have an embargo, again, not knowing the full ins and outs, if terms have been agreed and signed he’s a Cardiff player and the money is owed. I appreciate this matter is more serious but it’s no different to a player signing and the next day falling down a flight of stairs and ending his career. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On Cardiff. One little bit confuses me. Morality and sadness of it all aside, strictly on the embargo front.

By my reckoning they have 27, maybe even 28 players of Professional Standing which means they need to release or sell 5 or 6 in order to sign one under strict limits...cap on wages, no fee etc.

...However varied (local) reporters say they can sign one subject to wahes and other limits as they have only 22 of the relevant criteria.

The embargo rules state that additions can only be considered if a club has under 23 players of Professional Standing but I am sure Cardiff have a few more.

Professional Standing, the definition of this is any player of any age who has played 1 minute of football at Professional level.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[PHILINFRANCE]

7 minutes ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

I didn’t realise there were so many Insurance nerds on OTIB… 

Wonderful industry to be in, sounds boring as *beep* from the outside though.

On the above, the wording will have to watertight on the reasonable steps. I.e. don’t let a Rovers lawyer write the wording… I’d be happy to challenge the definition of reasonable. As long as the club hired an experienced pilot and a reputable company for the plane I would say that’s reasonable. If the owner of the plane hasn’t maintained or serviced the plane I would argue that’s not the clubs fault. Saying that, I don’t know the ins and outs of the incident, who was hired and who hired who or who was acting on behalf of the club. 

Glad they have an embargo, again, not knowing the full ins and outs, if terms have been agreed and signed he’s a Cardiff player and the money is owed. I appreciate this matter is more serious but it’s no different to a player signing and the next day falling down a flight of stairs and ending his career. 

Unfortunately, that is one of the (many) problems - Cardiff didn't hire the pilot (who was apparently experienced, but not qualified to fly at night, or with a paying passenger).

They had proposed scheduled flights, but Sala wanted to return back to Nantes to say goodbye to his teammates and the flight and (original) pilot was arranged (allegedly) by his lovely agent - who was not registered to act as an agent at the time.

Try and read up on it all - it is quite an interesting tale, although obviously a quite unnecessary and totally avoidable tragedy.

 

[View from the Dolman]

58 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On Cardiff. One little bit confuses me. Morality and sadness of it all aside, strictly on the embargo front.

By my reckoning they have 27, maybe even 28 players of Professional Standing which means they need to release or sell 5 or 6 in order to sign one under strict limits...cap on wages, no fee etc.

...However varied (local) reporters say they can sign one subject to wahes and other limits as they have only 22 of the relevant criteria.

The embargo rules state that additions can only be considered if a club has under 23 players of Professional Standing but I am sure Cardiff have a few more.

Professional Standing, the definition of this is any player of any age who has played 1 minute of football at Professional level.

Have any credible (and I'm not including local journalists in that) reports said that Cardiff can sign players?

The Decision of the Bureau of the Players’ Status Committee determined that "the Respondent shall be banned from registering any new players, either nationally or internationally, up until the due amounts are paid and for the maximum duration of three entire and consecutive registration periods". This is based on article 24 of the Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players which determine that a club shall face the consequence of "a ban from registering any new players, either nationally or internationally, up until the due amounts are paid. The overall maximum duration of the registration ban shall be of up to three entire and consecutive registration periods". The FIFA regulations appear pretty clear to me - it is a ban from registering ANY new players. No if, buts or maybes.

The EFL regulations on a transfer and "professional standing" feel like an irrelevance to me since it's not an EFL embargo. If a domestic league can simply write rules to override the FIFA transfer ban, what's to stop any national association or domestic league writing a rule that an embargo shall only apply if you have 50 players of professional standing born on a Wednesday?

Cardiff also have the slight complication of signing most of their players from clubs outside the FAW's jurisdiction - good luck getting one of those through FIFA's TMS system whilst you're under a FIFA transfer ban.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On Cardiff. One little bit confuses me. Morality and sadness of it all aside, strictly on the embargo front.

By my reckoning they have 27, maybe even 28 players of Professional Standing which means they need to release or sell 5 or 6 in order to sign one under strict limits...cap on wages, no fee etc.

...However varied (local) reporters say they can sign one subject to wahes and other limits as they have only 22 of the relevant criteria.

The embargo rules state that additions can only be considered if a club has under 23 players of Professional Standing but I am sure Cardiff have a few more.

Professional Standing, the definition of this is any player of any age who has played 1 minute of football at Professional level.

 

1 hour ago, View from the Dolman said:

Have any credible (and I'm not including local journalists in that) reports said that Cardiff can sign players?

That was gonna be my next question!

[1960maaan]

5 hours ago, View from the Dolman said:

If a domestic league can simply write rules to override the FIFA transfer ban, what's to stop any national association or domestic league writing a rule that an embargo shall only apply if you have 50 players of professional standing born on a Wednesday?

When Cardiff got to the FA Cup Final, I seem to remember a player was due to serve a Ban and would have been unavailable. The Welsh FA waved the Ban and he was allowed to play. 

Just found this.

Not sure how the Welsh FA could make a decision that on the face of it, massively helps one of their teams playing in another Country. 
So nothing would surprise me. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Still seems to be a belief among some Cardiff fans that they only have 22 players of Professional Standing.

https://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=231411&sid=918bd50696c3fdd6fcca87288ac527f9

Notwithstanding the fact that it is a FIFA embargo as covered by @View from the Dolman in theory they can sign one more according to this. How they estimate only 22 of Professional Standing I'm unsure.

Edit, think it's a fortnight old article from their local media. Surely as above a FIFA embargo rule should.supersede and b) They already have over 23 of Professional Standing plus unsure how they're counted, a number of loanees at other clubs.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Cardiff have somehow come out of this a little bit better.

Didn't renew Morrison short term but recalling McGuinness. Am surprised they loaned him out in the 1st place but then again unsure that defence is their big issue.

[GrahamC]

On 03/01/2023 at 23:03, 1960maaan said:

When Cardiff got to the FA Cup Final, I seem to remember a player was due to serve a Ban and would have been unavailable. The Welsh FA waved the Ban and he was allowed to play. 

Just found this.

Not sure how the Welsh FA could make a decision that on the face of it, massively helps one of their teams playing in another Country. 
So nothing would surprise me. 

That rule was subsequently changed because of the outcry, pretty sure Newport County had also benefited from a similarly incomprehensible decision when some Welsh FA tribunal (let’s face it, almost certainly full of fans of one of the 3 South Wales clubs) overturned a red card ban.

There is an obvious solution here, apart from Liechtenstein which has no national league so their clubs play in the Swiss leagues, Wales is the only European country whose clubs play in another country’s league.

Sadly it looks like the incredibly hyped Wrexham are coming back up, I wish all of them would **** off & play in their only league & the likes of Notts County, Chesterfield & Yeovil were in the EFL instead.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That rule was subsequently changed because of the outcry, pretty sure Newport County had also benefited from a similarly incomprehensible decision when some Welsh FA tribunal (let’s face it, almost certainly full of fans of one of the 3 South Wales clubs) overturned a red card ban.

There is an obvious solution here, apart from Liechtenstein which has no national league so their clubs play in the Swiss leagues, Wales is the only European country whose clubs play in another country’s league.

Sadly it looks like the incredibly hyped Wrexham are coming back up, I wish all of them would **** off & play in their only league & the likes of Notts County, Chesterfield & Yeovil were in the EFL instead.

We’ll have Berwick back too

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

We’ll have Berwick back too

There are a couple of others. I think Derry City play in the LOI for instance.

[Kid in the Riot]

Have heard Cardiff are finally coughing up. First payment to Nantes of a little over £5m could be made as early as this week, which would then lift the transfer embargo. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 09/01/2023 at 15:45, Kid in the Riot said:

Have heard Cardiff are finally coughing up. First payment to Nantes of a little over £5m could be made as early as this week, which would then lift the transfer embargo. 

Sounds like you were spot on. Read some chatter the other week but yes seems to be confirmed today.

[Redtucks]

On 06/01/2023 at 14:44, Davefevs said:

We’ll have Berwick back too

Berwick away on a Tuesday night???

No thanks!!!

 

[ExiledAjax]

On 09/01/2023 at 15:45, Kid in the Riot said:

Have heard Cardiff are finally coughing up. First payment to Nantes of a little over £5m could be made as early as this week, which would then lift the transfer embargo. 

BBC reporting it as paid.

[redsince1994]

Cardiff City tried to insure Sala for £20m the day after his death - court - BBC News

Bit beyond my understanding, but sounds as though Cardiff realised they had made a mistake with their insurance then tried to fix it after the crash?

Not a great look!

[Mr Popodopolous]

As I thought, trying to weasel some compensation to give them a bit more to spend moving forward. At the reversal of impairment for a dead player seems highly unlikely now.

[Lanterne Rouge]

It`s like crashing your car and then trying to insure it fully comp the next day.

I bet the insurers fall for that one every day.

[sh1t_ref_again]

I guess, the important point will be is what has been Cardiff's normal operating procedure and when they have informed that insurer for previous transfers

[downendcity]

8 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I guess, the important point will be is what has been Cardiff's normal operating procedure and when they have informed that insurer for previous transfers

Perhaps their normal operating procedure has been not to inform the insurer! 

[CiderJar]

As headlines go this is pretty damning

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, redsince1994 said:

Cardiff City tried to insure Sala for £20m the day after his death - court - BBC News

Bit beyond my understanding, but sounds as though Cardiff realised they had made a mistake with their insurance then tried to fix it after the crash?

Not a great look!

F.R.A.U.D.

[Loco Rojo]

So attempted Fraud then.

If this was the average person, there would be severe consequences. 

If i was a Cardiff fan, i'd have walked away from that club by now but this would certainly be the last straw.

I'd be ashamed to be associated with them. Vile club. Feel sorry for the fans.

[sh1t_ref_again]

23 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Perhaps their normal operating procedure has been not to inform the insurer! 

If on previous transfers, the insurer had been advised afterwards and therefore this has been the accepted practice, the insurer may have a problem, equally on previous occasions the insurer has been informed prior to the transfer then Cardiff will not have a leg to stand on

[GrahamC]

48 minutes ago, CiderJar said:

As headlines go this is pretty damning

Be interested in how their supporters at BBC Wales Sport spin this, Nantes are to blame, probably.

[1960maaan]

Right, trying to be even handed. They have put out a statement...

There has been selective reporting today of the defence filed against the claim the Club has brought against its insurance brokers for doing their job negligently.

The Club did not try to insure Emiliano after the plane crash.

All Cardiff City Football Club staff understood from its broker that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, and the case arises from learning they were not.

It will reply to the allegations made in the defence that are untrue, or portrayed out of context, in the court proceedings and will not litigate this case in the media.

I think most Clubs would look into what had gone on, but there is no way Cardiff come out of this looking good. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by 1960maaan

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Right, trying to be even handed. They have put out a statement...

There has been selective reporting today of the defence filed against the claim the Club has brought against its insurance brokers for doing their job negligently.

The Club did not try to insure Emiliano after the plane crash.

All Cardiff City Football Club staff understood from its broker that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, and the case arises from learning they were not.

It will reply to the allegations made in the defence that are untrue, or portrayed out of context, in the court proceedings and will not litigate this case in the media.

I think most Clubs would look into what had gone on, but there is no way Cardiff come out of this looking good. 

Sorry, are they commenting on an ongoing case? Whatever that last paragraph might say I'd suggest that they clearly are trying to litigate in the media. If what they say is true then they need only say it in court and they will be vindicated.

As an aside, my reading of that is that Cardiff didn't read, or didn't understand, or didn't pay attention to, the terms of their insurance. Bad luck, but don't sue your insurers for your own incompetence.

Edited January 19, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[downendcity]

19 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Right, trying to be even handed. They have put out a statement...

There has been selective reporting today of the defence filed against the claim the Club has brought against its insurance brokers for doing their job negligently.

The Club did not try to insure Emiliano after the plane crash.

All Cardiff City Football Club staff understood from its broker that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, and the case arises from learning they were not.

It will reply to the allegations made in the defence that are untrue, or portrayed out of context, in the court proceedings and will not litigate this case in the media.

I think most Clubs would look into what had gone on, but there is no way Cardiff come out of this looking good. 

This from the BBC website back in 2019:

Cardiff City are set to claim the deal to buy Emiliano Sala from Nantes for £15m was not legally binding.

The Bluebirds are refusing to make interim payments for the striker, who died in a plane crash on 21 January.

Cardiff will tell world football's governing body Fifa that Nantes' conditions for completion of the deal were not fulfilled and Sala was not registered as a Premier League player.

This was, of course, at the time that Cardiff were trying to wriggle out of paying the transfer fee.

If, at the time of the player's death, Cardiff thought that the sale was not legally binding  due to Nantes' conditions for completion having not been met, and that the player was not registered as a premier league player, then, if all Cardiff staff understood that all players were insured from the moment they were signed, then Sala could not have been insured as Cardiff said the signing was not completed!