Emiliano Sala

[GrahamC]

4 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Straw clutching? If I changed my car I wouldn`t expect to wait for my insurance company to tell me I had to amend my policy, I`d just get on and do it because I know I wouldn`t be covered otherwise.

They really are beyond belief, every attempt not to pay the fee for a player they had signed & confirmed on their website.

Vile.

[milo1111]

Football has no moral compass. Everyone knows it. Every aspect of Cardiff is the ass end of football so this whole saga is really not surprising. 

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Straw clutching? If I changed my car I wouldn`t expect to wait for my insurance company to tell me I had to amend my policy, I`d just get on and do it because I know I wouldn`t be covered otherwise.

Yep. Caveat Emptor and all that.

[italian dave]

12 hours ago, GrahamC said:

They really are beyond belief, every attempt not to pay the fee for a player they had signed & confirmed on their website.

Vile.

Have they paid the fee yet?
This does nothing to alter the outcome of the case between them and Nantes - which ruled very clearly that Cardiff owe Nantes the money. Whether Cardiff then have a case against someone else (and they appear to be flailing around trying to find anyone else they can to blame) is neither here nor there as far as Nantes are concerned.

Agree that, on the face of it, this looks like a pathetically weak argument. I suppose that we don’t know the nature of the arrangements for the insurances they have. It’s possible for example that they have a single policy to cover all their players, and this is just around the terms and conditions relating to whether, when, how, Cardiff have to notify changes. 

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Have they paid the fee yet?
This does nothing to alter the outcome of the case between them and Nantes - which ruled very clearly that Cardiff owe Nantes the money. Whether Cardiff then have a case against someone else (and they appear to be flailing around trying to find anyone else they can to blame) is neither here nor there as far as Nantes are concerned.

Agree that, on the face of it, this looks like a pathetically weak argument. I suppose that we don’t know the nature of the arrangements for the insurances they have. It’s possible for example that they have a single policy to cover all their players, and this is just around the terms and conditions relating to whether, when, how, Cardiff have to notify changes. 

They haven’t paid a penny.

Absolute scum.

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

They haven’t paid a penny.

Absolute scum.

Surely Nantes can, at the very least, apply for some sort of football related sanction against Cardiff now - European wide transfer embargo, that sort of thing?
And then sue them for unpaid debts? Although I can see that the latter looks unseemly in the circumstances, and Nantes maybe have a shred of decency about them that Cardiff seem to lack. 

[BanburyRed]

Because it's not like Cardiff haven't previously signed players and used a broker before....

 

 

 

 

[Eddie Hitler]

13 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Straw clutching? If I changed my car I wouldn`t expect to wait for my insurance company to tell me I had to amend my policy, I`d just get on and do it because I know I wouldn`t be covered otherwise.

 

Hmmm.  I've been responsible for the insurance cover of a couple of businesses and the insurer was happy to wait until the renewal for new additions to the policy.  Provided that new assets were obtained within the regular course of business then they would automatically be covered from the point of acquisition.

In both cases this was direct with an insurance company and the wording, as in the cover notes rather than the detailed wording, made this clear.  The fleet for example was on this basis, vehicles were covered from acquisition though we did have to retrospectively inform the insurer of changes for their information.  The policy schedule wasn't updated through the year but the insurer would be abel to step in and demand an extra premium if we had materially increased our fleet size or bought the MD a Ferrari for his company car.

It also made clear what wasn't automatically covered - if we bought a new office for instance then we would have to specifically add this and an additional premium woudl be payable.

Unlike my companies Cardiff went through a broker.  The broker receives their fee not just for the placing of the insurances but for providing advice.

 

If they had never made it clear to Cardiff, or have no record of doing so, that a player was unisured until the policy schedule was amended to include that player then I would suggest that Cardiff has a possible case here as the broker is advising them regarding their insurances rather than providing it.

 

 

It said it was the broker's responsibility to tell the club it would not be insured for a new player's death until its policy was amended to cover that new signing.

 

[italian dave]

2 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Hmmm.  I've been responsible for the insurance cover of a couple of businesses and the insurer was happy to wait until the renewal for new additions to the policy.  Provided that new assets were obtained within the regular course of business then they would automatically be covered from the point of acquisition.

In both cases this was direct with an insurance company and the wording, as in the cover notes rather than the detailed wording, made this clear.  The fleet for example was on this basis, vehicles were covered from acquisition though we did have to retrospectively inform the insurer of changes for their information.  The policy schedule wasn't updated through the year but the insurer would be abel to step in and demand an extra premium if we had materially increased our fleet size or bought the MD a Ferrari for his company car.

It also made clear what wasn't automatically covered - if we bought a new office for instance then we would have to specifically add this and an additional premium woudl be payable.

Unlike my companies Cardiff went through a broker.  The broker receives their fee not just for the placing of the insurances but for providing advice.

 

If they had never made it clear to Cardiff, or have no record of doing so, that a player was unisured until the policy schedule was amended to include that player then I would suggest that Cardiff has a possible case here as the broker is advising them regarding their insurances rather than providing it.

 

 

It said it was the broker's responsibility to tell the club it would not be insured for a new player's death until its policy was amended to cover that new signing.

 

That’s pretty much what I was alluding to above.

Many landlords who own multiple properties will have similar arrangements. A policy that covers any property they own, but there will be criteria in there about when they have to notify sales/purchases (within 10 days, at next renewal etc), but also more specific requirements about high risk, high value properties etc. 

And the brokers job is to make sure that their client understands that detail. That’s what the broker is paid for. 

So it’s not quite as straightforward as you or I buying our home or car insurance. 

[Loco Rojo]

Got to say, if I was a Cardiff fan I'd be pretty ashamed of my club.

If City did something like this, i'd have to walk away while the owner/s were in charge.

The questionable morals in football makes this sport increasing difficult to associate with.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

Surely Nantes can, at the very least, apply for some sort of football related sanction against Cardiff now - European wide transfer embargo, that sort of thing?
And then sue them for unpaid debts? Although I can see that the latter looks unseemly in the circumstances, and Nantes maybe have a shred of decency about them that Cardiff seem to lack. 

From memory, they were told to pay up or face sanction.  Cardiff we’re looking to appeal the CAS decision.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Loco Rojo said:

Got to say, if I was a Cardiff fan I'd be pretty ashamed of my club.

If City did something like this, i'd have to walk away while the owner/s were in charge.

The questionable morals in football makes this sport increasing difficult to associate with.

My fear is that the last sentence is where the truth lies. It is easy to criticise Cardiff, and it is right to criticise them as well as they're responsible for their actions but I couldn't say, hand on heart, that I truly believed that other clubs wouldn't also do all they could to avoid financial responsibility for a player who died just after he signed for them.

Cardiff come across as callous, crass and insensitive and I really hope City would do things differently in the same circumstances but I'm not going to pretend to be confident on that. 

[Loco Rojo]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

My fear is that the last sentence is where the truth lies. It is easy to criticise Cardiff, and it is right to criticise them as well as they're responsible for their actions but I couldn't say, hand on heart, that I truly believed that other clubs wouldn't also do all they could to avoid financial responsibility for a player who died just after he signed for them.

Cardiff come across as callous, crass and insensitive and I really hope City would do things differently in the same circumstances but I'm not going to pretend to be confident on that. 

Got to agree with that mate.  As horrible as that is to think, i'm not sure Cardiff would be alone in their response to how they're handling this.

[Hxj]

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Cardiff come across as callous, crass and insensitive

I’m wouldn’t blame Cardiff for this at all - it’s called business.

Also I can be ‘callous, crass and insensitive’ over a lot, lot less than £10 million, ask my ex

[downendcity]

16 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Straw clutching? If I changed my car I wouldn`t expect to wait for my insurance company to tell me I had to amend my policy, I`d just get on and do it because I know I wouldn`t be covered otherwise.

 

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

Yep. Caveat Emptor and all that.

Caveat Emptor - are their car insurance premiums pretty competitive then?  

 

[Eddie Hitler]

3 hours ago, italian dave said:

That’s pretty much what I was alluding to above.

Many landlords who own multiple properties will have similar arrangements. A policy that covers any property they own, but there will be criteria in there about when they have to notify sales/purchases (within 10 days, at next renewal etc), but also more specific requirements about high risk, high value properties etc. 

And the brokers job is to make sure that their client understands that detail. That’s what the broker is paid for. 

So it’s not quite as straightforward as you or I buying our home or car insurance. 

 

Yes.

And it's now down to Miller to prove that they did that.

I would have thought that their systems were up to that in that they can provide evidence of communication to Cardiff but if it was that easy then why the challenge?

I wonder who underwrites Miller's Professional Indemnity insurance.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

 

Caveat Emptor - are their car insurance premiums pretty competitive then?  

 

Don't know, they're not on any comparison sites.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes.

And it's now down to Miller to prove that they did that.

I would have thought that their systems were up to that in that they can provide evidence of communication to Cardiff but if it was that easy then why the challenge?

I wonder who underwrites Miller's Professional Indemnity insurance.

Miller are Lloyd’s brokers and, it must be said, well respected in what is a niche market.

I should imagine cover was placed with one of a select group of Lloyd’s Underwriters writing this very specialised line of business.

I must say I would be surprised if Cardiff’s policy didn’t include some facility whereby cover was provided automatically for new signings, with details of the specific cover required to be clarified subsequently.

It may be that, e.g. sums assured over a certain amount, flights in private aircraft etc. required prior approval, but I find it difficult to understand how cover for such a signing could just slip through the net.

[Eddie Hitler]

5 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Miller are Lloyd’s brokers and, it must be said, well respected in what is a niche market.

I should imagine cover was placed with one of a select group of Lloyd’s Underwriters writing this very specialised line of business.

I must say I would be surprised if Cardiff’s policy didn’t include some facility whereby cover was provided automatically for new signings, with details of the specific cover required to be clarified subsequently.

It may be that, e.g. sums assured over a certain amount, flights in private aircraft etc. required prior approval, but I find it difficult to understand how cover for such a signing could just slip through the net.

 

Yes, that last sounds likely. If Forest Green sign Christiano Ronaldo then that wouldn't count as business as usual.

I'm not knocking Millers though being a Lloyd's broker isn't itself a mark.of quality.

Ian McCall, a firm, mentioned here was caught photocopying underwriters' signatures onto policies they hadn't written.

https://insurancesecurityservicesblog.wordpress.com/2015/11/02/due-diligence-and-its-lack/

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Would it not have been easier (and cheaper) for Cardiff to have just paid Nantes? The only ones making any money out of this are the lawyers and the positive PR they would have got would have been priceless.

[PHILINFRANCE]

24 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes, that last sounds likely. If Forest Green sign Christiano Ronaldo then that wouldn't count as business as usual.

I'm not knocking Millers though being a Lloyd's broker isn't itself a mark.of quality.

Ian McCall, a firm, mentioned here was caught photocopying underwriters' signatures onto policies they hadn't written.

https://insurancesecurityservicesblog.wordpress.com/2015/11/02/due-diligence-and-its-lack/

 

I have worked with Millers, and they are sound.

Having said that, a rogue individual in any company, insurance broker or otherwise, especially if he or she is trusted and in a position of authority, can cause huge problems, hence the reason reputable companies have in-house security, although this is not always infallible.

By the way, I enjoyed the article to which you provided a link and, interestingly, had the misfortune of working with Michael Bright/Independent and also with Beema - I could tell you some very interesting stories about both, especially Michael Bright, although not on this thread, for obvious reasons.

Some years ago, I picked up an incredible amount of business on the back of a broker who was placing a certain class of business with an insurer in Cyprus.

Whilst the cover was excellent (ostensibly) and the premium extremely competitive, the insurer’s policies were not recognised legally in France so, effectively, the companies concerned had no cover and were given 48 hours to obtain cover - PL was the major concern - or close down.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I have worked with Millers, and they are sound.

Having said that, a rogue individual in any company, insurance broker or otherwise, especially if he or she is trusted and in a position of authority, can cause huge problems, hence the reason reputable companies have in-house security, although this is not always infallible.

By the way, I enjoyed the article to which you provided a link and, interestingly, had the misfortune of working with Michael Bright/Independent and also with Beema - I could tell you some very interesting stories about both, especially Michael Bright, although not on this thread, for obvious reasons.

Some years ago, I picked up an incredible amount of business on the back of a broker who was placing a certain class of business with an insurer in Cyprus.

Whilst the cover was excellent (ostensibly) and the premium extremely competitive, the insurer’s policies were not recognised legally in France so, effectively, the companies concerned had no cover and were given 48 hours to obtain cover - PL was the major concern - or close down.

 

I knew people who had worked with "Brighty" and didn't trust him as far as they could throw the fat red faced crook.

Independent was reporting record profits when everyone knew it was a hard market we all knew he was on the fiddle and he was locked up for it. Claims files stashed in his wardrobe IIRC 

I also knew Keith Beekmeyer, referenced in that article, who was investigated by the Belgian equivalent of the DTI and had to flee Kenya to avoid fraud charges.

Insurance does tend to attract the villains because the sales money comes in before the claims money goes out.

[Davefevs]

We’re Bright and Aaron Banks linked in any way?

[PHILINFRANCE]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We’re Bright and Aaron Banks linked in any way?

I really shouldn’t have thought so.

It is not the sort of market Banks operates in and, frankly, whilst I am not entirely sure, I should be astonished if Bright is/ever will be allowed to work in insurance in any capacity, and nor should he be.

[Harry]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:12, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Hmmm.  I've been responsible for the insurance cover of a couple of businesses and the insurer was happy to wait until the renewal for new additions to the policy.  Provided that new assets were obtained within the regular course of business then they would automatically be covered from the point of acquisition.

In both cases this was direct with an insurance company and the wording, as in the cover notes rather than the detailed wording, made this clear.  The fleet for example was on this basis, vehicles were covered from acquisition though we did have to retrospectively inform the insurer of changes for their information.  The policy schedule wasn't updated through the year but the insurer would be abel to step in and demand an extra premium if we had materially increased our fleet size or bought the MD a Ferrari for his company car.

It also made clear what wasn't automatically covered - if we bought a new office for instance then we would have to specifically add this and an additional premium woudl be payable.

Unlike my companies Cardiff went through a broker.  The broker receives their fee not just for the placing of the insurances but for providing advice.

 

If they had never made it clear to Cardiff, or have no record of doing so, that a player was unisured until the policy schedule was amended to include that player then I would suggest that Cardiff has a possible case here as the broker is advising them regarding their insurances rather than providing it.

 

 

It said it was the broker's responsibility to tell the club it would not be insured for a new player's death until its policy was amended to cover that new signing.

 

I work in Life insurance for companies (provided as part of an employee benefits package). 
You are correct that on the majority of such policies, the insurer doesn’t want to know about new entrants or leavers during the course of the year, and only want to see the full membership data once per year at the renewal date. 
Therefore under such an agreement, as soon as Sala signed a contract of employment (ie commenced employment), he’d be covered in the policy, and the insurer would not need to be notified. 

Many years ago I did briefly look after some of the football club schemes. Back then the policies simply covered all players for £1m. But that was prior to the money going crazy, so I don’t know what this sort of coverage would look like nowadays. 
 

Back then, the principle would have been as above, where data would only need to be gathered once per year and any new signings were covered immediately upon joining, for the £1m. 
That may have changed nowadays, given the sums involved. 
On a normal policy, if someone joins who has a very high salary, the insurance company do want to know about them straight away (they offer a certain limit of sum assured, below which you are included with no questions asked, but above which they’d ask for medical information, as the risk profile is much more significant). 
It could be that Cardiif’s policy had an agreement where cover would be provided up to £15m with no questions, but above that amount they would require notification. But even then, the £15m would still be covered, it would only be the excess amount that would require medical underwriting (for example, if they wanted £20m of cover, they’d get the £15m immediately, no questions asked, but would ask for medical information for the other £5m).
That’s on the proviso that these footballer schemes still operate in the same manner as a normal company policy. But as I say, given the sums involved nowadays, that may be different. 
Best person to ask would be @TDarwallas I think he still deals with (or at least did recently) with the footballer schemes. 

I also used to deal with the PFA life insurance scheme. All PFA members get 4x salary to a maximum of £600k. 
So if he’d also signed up to the PFA when he and his agent penned the contract, he’d also have had £600k insured from day 1 under their policy too. Although that’s payable to the spouse/next of kin, as opposed to the club. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Harry

[The Saturday Boy]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

I work in Life insurance for companies (provided as part of an employee benefits package). 
You are correct that on the majority of such policies, the insurer doesn’t want to know about new entrants or leavers during the course of the year, and only want to see the full membership data once per year at the renewal date. 
Therefore under such an agreement, as soon as Sala signed a contract of employment (ie commenced employment), he’d be covered in the policy, and the insurer would not need to be notified. 

Many years ago I did briefly look after some of the football club schemes. Back then the policies simply covered all players for £1m. But that was prior to the money going crazy, so I don’t know what this sort of coverage would look like nowadays. 
 

Back then, the principle would have been as above, where data would only need to be gathered once per year and any new signings were covered immediately upon joining, for the £1m. 
That may have changed nowadays, given the sums involved. 
On a normal policy, if someone joins who has a very high salary, the insurance company do want to know about them straight away (they offer a certain limit of sum assured, below which you are included with no questions asked, but above which they’d ask for medical information, as the risk profile is much more significant). 
It could be that Cardiif’s policy had an agreement where cover would be provided up to £15m with no questions, but above that amount they would require notification. But even then, the £15m would still be covered, it would only be the excess amount that would require medical underwriting (for example, if they wanted £20m of cover, they’d get the £15m immediately, no questions asked, but would ask for medical information for the other £5m).
That’s on the proviso that these footballer schemes still operate in the same manner as a normal company policy. But as I say, given the sums involved nowadays, that may be different. 
Best person to ask would be @TDarwallas I think he still deals with (or at least did recently) with the footballer schemes. 

I also used to deal with the PFA life insurance scheme. All PFA members get 4x salary to a maximum of £600k. 
So if he’d also signed up to the PFA when he and his agent penned the contract, he’d also have had £600k insured from day 1 under their policy too. Although that’s payable to the spouse/next of kin, as opposed to the club. 

Aha, a group scheme underwriter. I'm an individual protection medical underwriter. Well explained

[TDarwall]

@Harry

@Eddie Hitler

I did write Pro Football schemes at Lloyd's but haven't since late 2018. Ironically I did write the Cardiff scheme (gotta pay the bills somehow) however the scheme I did was death by natural causes only. The Accidental Death element was insured elsewhere under a Personal Accident policy (because they have higher Catastrophe RI cover, that's a snippet for insurance nerds only!).  As the policies were so bespoke they generally had their own t&c's with regards to new joiners, however for exposure mgmt & reinsurance purposes it's quite likely that insurers need to be advised of new players.

I would also add, an insurer expects the policyholder to take reasonable steps to avoid a loss..... allowing your record transfer to be transported in the way he was, probably doesn't meet that test!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Harry]

13 hours ago, TDarwall said:

@Harry

@Eddie Hitler

I did write Pro Football schemes at Lloyd's but haven't since late 2018. Ironically I did write the Cardiff scheme (gotta pay the bills somehow) however the scheme I did was death by natural causes only. The Accidental Death element was insured elsewhere under a Personal Accident policy (because they have higher Catastrophe RI cover, that's a snippet for insurance nerds only!).  As the policies were so bespoke they generally had their own t&c's with regards to new joiners, however for exposure mgmt & reinsurance purposes it's quite likely that insurers need to be advised of new players.

I would also add, an insurer expects the policyholder to take reasonable steps to avoid a loss..... allowing your record transfer to be transported in the way he was, probably doesn't meet that test!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I knew you’d have the answer

[Bristol Oil Services]

On 12/12/2022 at 19:26, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Insurance does tend to attract the villains because the sales money comes in before the claims money goes out.

Yeah, insurers and football clubs, selling football season tickets: get the money in first, whilst promising/hinting we'll be buying x, y and Andre Gray, then rock up at Sheffield Wednesday and fall apart. It's a racket ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting line on Football League highlights tonight.

Cardiff apparently will be under a transfer embargo in January owing to the failure to pay the first instalment of the Sala fee.