What is our identity that LJ always bangs on about?

[Major Isewater]

14 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Just watching Palace v Brighton, now did we not knock Palace out of this very divisions play offs not long ago? and Brighton, did we not beat them away in there promo season? where are they both now The Prem where are we....still here.

Thus as a commentater once said we are "The Nearly Club"  that is our identity so close but always so far; many clubs have and continue to pass us by while we, well just go round and round. Most know the script, we dont get knocked down and get up again as LJ recently said, we knock ourselves down season after season its as if we dont want to make that final push over the line. This will be repeated in Jan we know what we want and we also know we will only nearly get it. Prove me wrong BCFC GO FOR IT.

‘ Always the Bridesmaid ‘ was my original poster name . I thought a long time for a name that summed up the club as I know it .

I don’t want to go back to using that name ever again but the signs are that although things at City have improved beyond all recognition there remains a soft underbelly which holds us back .

 I mentioned in another post that we are football snobs , we won’t play down and dirty , scrapping for points . We have to play like Barcelona but we simply don’t have the players to do that . 
 

We think we are better than clubs like Preston, Blackburn, Wigan etc when, in reality, we have done nothing of consequence in our history.

Our best time was at the turn of the twentieth century when we were runners up in the FA cup and the league . 
 

 

 

[cidered abroad]

2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

‘ Always the Bridesmaid ‘ was my original poster name . I thought a long time for a name that summed up the club as I know it .

I don’t want to go back to using that name ever again but the signs are that although things at City have improved beyond all recognition there remains a soft underbelly which holds us back .

 I mentioned in another post that we are football snobs , we won’t play down and dirty , scrapping for points . We have to play like Barcelona but we simply don’t have the players to do that . 
 

We think we are better than clubs like Preston, Blackburn, Wigan etc when, in reality, we have done nothing of consequence in our history.

Our best time was at the turn of the twentieth century when we were runners up in the FA cup and the league . 
 

 

 

Very true. The majority of Championship Clubs and their fans Demand /Want Premier League football.

We would like to go up! (But don't seem too bothered if we don't)

Big difference in attitude.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

‘ Always the Bridesmaid ‘ was my original poster name . I thought a long time for a name that summed up the club as I know it .

I don’t want to go back to using that name ever again but the signs are that although things at City have improved beyond all recognition there remains a soft underbelly which holds us back .

 I mentioned in another post that we are football snobs , we won’t play down and dirty , scrapping for points . We have to play like Barcelona but we simply don’t have the players to do that . 
 

We think we are better than clubs like Preston, Blackburn, Wigan etc when, in reality, we have done nothing of consequence in our history.

Our best time was at the turn of the twentieth century when we were runners up in the FA cup and the league . 
 

 

 

That is silly. 

Barcelona at their peak had a ultra aggressive pressing game.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That is silly. 

Barcelona at their peak had a ultra aggressive pressing game.

Indeed they did.

I remember when I saw them live on TV for first time under Guardiola. Knew all about the  passing and the dominance etc, but I decided to watch them off the ball, focus on that a bit more.

Pressed as well as they passed and I thought 'How the hell do you beat that? With a fair bit of difficulty probably!'

[Cowshed]

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Indeed they did.

I remember when I saw them live on TV for first time under Guardiola. Knew all about the  passing and the dominance etc, but I decided to watch them off the ball, focus on that a bit more.

Pressed as well as they passed and I thought 'How the hell do you beat that? With a fair bit of difficulty probably!'

There is possibly a parallel in Lee Johnsons team circa November/December 2017. A team passing short and that applied immediate aggressive pressure on opponents and used high lines. Elements of Barcelona's offensive and defensive play.

A plausible long term identity but gone by Feb 2017. Instead a team morphing through styles.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There is possibly a parallel in Lee Johnsons team circa November/December 2017. A team passing short and that applied immediate aggressive pressure on opponents and used high lines. Elements of Barcelona's offensive and defensive play.

An identity .. Gone by Feb 2017.

 

I think we still showed it in patches after February 2018.

Firdr half v Sunderland 3-0 but more notably the first half of the 4-0 v an admittedly fairly injury hit Sheffield Wednesday in early March. It did seem to fade away in general. 

Parts of the 5-5 vs Hull possibly too and 2nd half final day vs Sheffield United.

Those 3-4 halves the possible only outliers though.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There is possibly a parallel in Lee Johnsons team circa November/December 2017. A team passing short and that applied immediate aggressive pressure on opponents and used high lines. Elements of Barcelona's offensive and defensive play.

A plausible long term identity but gone by Feb 2017. Instead a team morphing through styles.

 

I’m sure you understand the theories behind this better than I do, but it’s a bit of a circular dependency.  Press high allows you to have a high line.  Allows you to condense the pitch, thus you can press efficiently, over shorter distances.  And when you get the ball back, because you are condensed, you have shorter passing options, because players have shorter distances to cover to get into receiving positions.

It all sounds so simple.  But I guess it requires discipline, football intelligence etc.

At Fulham we did it pretty well.  Even after Cavaliero got put through early on, we didn’t allow it to trigger us to “naturally” drop deeper.  Even in second half, when Knockaert went through, we still kept a condensed high line.

[Cowshed]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think we still showed it in patches after February 2018.

Firdr half v Sunderland 3-0 but more notably the first half of the 4-0 v an admittedly fairly injury hit Sheffield Wednesday in early March. It did seem to fade away in general. 

Parts of the 5-5 vs Hull possibly too and 2nd half final day vs Sheffield United.

Those 3-4 halves the possible only outliers though.

And without intending to sound pedantic. That is not an identity. Identity is set. It does not morph through styles, patches or become an outlier. It is the behaviours that define the football in the good and bad. Identity guides the football. 

But the posters point was about snobbery and Lee Johnson. Passing a football is not soft and can be linked directly to aggressive play. Barcelona were very aggressive due to their relational distances to the ball allowing them to in particular counter press very very aggressively.. Bristol City for a very short period did something not dissimilar. 

[Major Isewater]

58 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

That is silly. 

Barcelona at their peak had a ultra aggressive pressing game.

That is silly.

I was not saying that Barca weren’t agressive in their play just that less skillful teams need to fight harder for the right to impose their game. 
 

 If a team let’s us play we are fantastic aren’t we ? 
 

The teams who don’t let us play are often the ones made up of rejects , old pros and kids who know what they have to do to get points and realise that there aren’t any awarded for ‘ pretty ‘ football on it’s own . 
 

 

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m sure you understand the theories behind this better than I do, but it’s a bit of a circular dependency.  Press high allows you to have a high line.  Allows you to condense the pitch, thus you can press efficiently, over shorter distances.  And when you get the ball back, because you are condensed, you have shorter passing options, because players have shorter distances to cover to get into receiving positions.

It all sounds so simple.  But I guess it requires discipline, football intelligence etc.

At Fulham we did it pretty well.  Even after Cavaliero got put through early on, we didn’t allow it to trigger us to “naturally” drop deeper.  Even in second half, when Knockaert went through, we still kept a condensed high line.

It is technical, tactical and yes psychological but you missed a physical. Players have to be very fit and have very short recovery times after explosive movements (pressing at speed). That is a skill set. 

At its zenith Liverpool have increased their running distances and squad fitness levels by the season to meet the challenges of their full on football. Its a keystone behaviour of their football, their identity  - Balls out football requires balls out fitness.

At lower levels teams can still emulate aspects of the best with commitment to the guiding principles. Lee Johnson years back blamed fatigue for abandoning how he played - Bristol City did not have a squad with the aerobic and anaerobic ability (that skill) to meet the demands .That squad had not ben recruited and developed to meet that footballs needs. Bristol City had not committed to principle one = This squad will have to have what is known as DTI (defensive tactical intensity) or we cannot do this season long and the season after. 

 

[spudski]

I've asked LJ direct as to whether he can explain to the majority of supporters what he means by 'Our Identity'. I've also asked MacGregor to ask him.

It could mean many things...it would be nice if he could clarify as to what he interprets it as when talking about City.

It's probably the one question that gets asked the most on here.

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is technical, tactical and yes psychological but you missed a physical. Players have to be very fit and have very short recovery times after explosive movements (pressing at speed). That is a skill set. 

At its zenith Liverpool have increased their running distances and squad fitness levels by the season to meet the challenges of their full on football. Its a keystone behaviour of their football, their identity  - Balls out football requires balls out fitness.

At lower levels teams can still emulate aspects of the best with commitment to the guiding principles. Lee Johnson years back blamed fatigue for abandoning how he played - Bristol City did not have a squad with the aerobic and anaerobic ability (that skill) to meet the demands .That squad had not ben recruited and developed to meet that footballs needs. Bristol City had not committed to principle one = This squad will have to have what is known as DTI (defensive tactical intensity) or we cannot do this season long and the season after. 

 

Yep, coupled with excellent fitness.

[Cowshed]

18 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

That is silly.

I was not saying that Barca weren’t agressive in their play just that less skillful teams need to fight harder for the right to impose their game. 
 

 If a team let’s us play we are fantastic aren’t we ? 
 

The teams who don’t let us play are often the ones made up of rejects , old pros and kids who know what they have to do to get points and realise that there aren’t any awarded for ‘ pretty ‘ football on it’s own . 
 

 

You were comparing Bristol City to Barcelona and making a point about aggression. This is what I replied to. Barcelona were an aggressive team but Bristol City are not attempting to play like them in or out of possession under Mr Johnson.

I think we will disagree with what fight is or how you impose your game on others. This thread - What is our identity? Fans cannot define what the team is attempting to impose on less skilful (?) teams. 

Your posts also refer to dirty, fight, and scrapping. Its 2019. Teams have negated Bristol City by sitting in, getting compact, screening possession, setting traps and that is a discipline.  Its not a fight or a dirty scrap. That is skilled discipline. That can be identity. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jerseybean]

This is a really good thread and spot on IMO in that we don’t have an identity or if we do it’s a negative one of too often going back or side ways, which is boring, ineffective and dangerous.

While there might be numerous reasons for this, including our injuries, for me the biggest factor is our limited forward options. Usually we have FD and AW as our ‘targets’ up front and usually they are isolated, out numbered and easily dispossessed. I fully appreciate they are both hard working players. Consequentially, when the ball is played forward too often we lose possession, therefore, midfielders and defenders elect to move the ball backwards or sidewards in the hope that some forward option appears! 

Our biggest win of the season (Huddersfield) and our best performance (Fulham) involved the same starting line up and for a moment I thought LJ had found a way of playing or an identify, that not only looked easier on the eye but was also effective.....however, we all know what happened in the next two games! 

As for a solution, I’d go for:

Strengthening the forward options

Adding an out and out attacking midfielder

Introducing some ‘managed’ aggression (a bit more bite and determination) especially in midfield

Ensuring that our midfield and forward players are not so far apart so that when a forward receives a pass he has support and options

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spudski]

My gut instinct when I hear LJ talk about our 'Identity'...is not one of a playing style...but one of ' Character' on the pitch.

I read this online in part of an interview, and it struck a chord.

What are the factors that help a team establish its identity?
What’s decisive is the role model function, the integrity. Everything I demand of others, I have to exemplify myself: credibility, reliability, honesty.

 

[Drew Peacock]

17 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh dear, worth noting a few key differences and why they're or at certain stages were quite a bit ahead of us in their development.

The big moment was 2008 vs Hull...or possibly even 5-6 weeks earlier at Stoke when we lost it before halftime.

I am not sure I understand this.  Are you saying we are not in the Premier League because of something that happened over 11 years ago?

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

You were comparing Bristol City to Barcelona and making a point about aggression. This is what I replied to. Barcelona were an aggressive team but Bristol City are not attempting to play like them in or out of possession under Mr Johnson.

I think we will disagree with what fight is or how you impose your game on others. This thread - What is our identity? Fans cannot define what the team is attempting to impose on less skilful (?) teams. 

Your posts also refer to dirty, fight, and scrapping. Its 2019. Teams have negated Bristol City by sitting in, getting compact, screening possession, setting traps and that is a discipline.  Its not a fight or a dirty scrap. That is skilled discipline. That can be identity. 

 

 

 

 

 

In no way was I comparing City to  Barcelona.  
 

The point I am trying , badly apparently , to make , is that certain clubs who have the same sort of standing as us can’t buy Messi , Salah-esque players and therefore make up for it in other ways . 
 

I never once mentioned ‘ dirty ‘ but football is an agressive game with no room for powder puff ‘ after you Claude ‘ type players  particularly when faced with opponents with higher skill sets .

‘ Fight ‘ is refusing to be bowed  or intimidated by more illustrious opponents, over coming them with tenacity and stubborn self belief . 

Blackburn came to us with many injuries ,having played a day later than us and that with twenty minutes down to ten men ,they were mentally and physically stronger than us when they could have had a good excuse not to perform.

Our identity, historically, is one of ‘ also rans ‘ . I believe a part of this is down to a lack of ruthlessness at the top which trickles down to the staff ,  players and even supporters , who accept it all with a shrug . 
 

It’s all a little bit cosy in our neck of the woods. 
 

 

[Drew Peacock]

23 hours ago, Olé said:

 It is interesting that if you talk to a few opposition fans they do all talk about "Lee Johnson" football, 

 

It could be the "busyness", his busy bees.  Even when we are poor, with the exception of the last couple of games, we have worked hard, ineffectively but hard, and pulled something out of the bag.  Could be that?

[Natchfever]

26 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

It could be the "busyness", his busy bees.  Even when we are poor, with the exception of the last couple of games, we have worked hard, ineffectively but hard, and pulled something out of the bag.  Could be that?

How much "Lee Johnson football" do opposition fans actually manage to watch ?

I just think he considers himself way better at coaching than performances or results over meaningful periods of time would indicate. Constantly looking at the other team and attempting to counter them rather than getting at them when at home.

We don't have an identity because the approach changes all the time. To me, the players (most of whom are decent) appeared to be like strangers on Saturday.

His squad now and has been for a while. If they can't execute his masterplan(s) then we need changes on and off the pitch.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

In no way was I comparing City to  Barcelona.  
 

The point I am trying , badly apparently , to make , is that certain clubs who have the same sort of standing as us can’t buy Messi , Salah-esque players and therefore make up for it in other ways . 
 

I never once mentioned ‘ dirty ‘ but football is an agressive game with no room for powder puff ‘ after you Claude ‘ type players  particularly when faced with opponents with higher skill sets .

‘ Fight ‘ is refusing to be bowed  or intimidated by more illustrious opponents, over coming them with tenacity and stubborn self belief . 

Blackburn came to us with many injuries ,having played a day later than us and that with twenty minutes down to ten men ,they were mentally and physically stronger than us when they could have had a good excuse not to perform.

Our identity, historically, is one of ‘ also rans ‘ . I believe a part of this is down to a lack of ruthlessness at the top which trickles down to the staff ,  players and even supporters , who accept it all with a shrug . 
 

It’s all a little bit cosy in our neck of the woods. 
 

 

I took your line of We have to play like Barcelona to be a comparison. Its hard to see how it was something else. The word dirty preceded that line.

In regards to fight in sports psychology fight is overtly mental. That mental drives the physical. The mental is multifaceted, driven by the extrinsic and intrinsic motivation of individuals themselves and outside factors. Teams at all levels gain confidence from self belief by believing in their team mates, their ability, their training and the leadership of the Manager.  

Our identity, historically, is one of ‘ also rans ‘ . I believe a part of this is down to a lack of ruthlessness at the top which trickles down to the staff ,  players … And with respect that is a nonsense. Players (humans) self control, discipline of thought and emotions are not affected over such a long term in that manner. 

 

[CotswoldRed]

On 17/12/2019 at 11:52, spudski said:

I've asked LJ direct as to whether he can explain to the majority of supporters what he means by 'Our Identity'. I've also asked MacGregor to ask him.

It could mean many things...it would be nice if he could clarify as to what he interprets it as when talking about City.

It's probably the one question that gets asked the most on here.

Do we really think we have one? 

It's all rhetorical nonsense where LJ is concerned. 

If he attempts to answer the question, it will contain more new questions than answers. 

If I interviewed LJ for a job, I've no doubt I'd be stopping him every minute, with "do you mind me asking what the hell you are talking about?" 

[Sixtyseconds]

Any old Punks on here?

Every time Lee Johnson utters the word Identity and its a lot I'm back in 1978.

Identity

Is the crisis cant you see

Identity ...

[AppyDAZE]

27 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Any old Punks on here?

Every time Lee Johnson utters the word Identity and its a lot I'm back in 1978.

Identity

Is the crisis cant you see

Identity ...

Well after Saturday's post match, I immediately thought of Never Mind The Bollocks.

[77 punk]

cut the crap the clash (awful album)

[AppyDAZE]

Machine Gun Etiquette.

Come on Lee, slip that one in during one of your post match ramblings, and I'll love you forever.

[formerly known as ivan]

Our “identity” = measuring the grass on the playing surface!

Its a load of bollocks! We don’t have an identity which is confirmed by LJ always picking a team based on our opponents, not what suits our players.

[77 punk]

it is just endless bluff and nonsensical corporate speak i am completely bored of him

[Cannybluff]

Our position... 7th. League average attendance we are 9th. League turnover we are around 11th. It seems we are over achieving. 

Danny wilson football was similar... some exciting football mixed in with a whole bunch of dirge. It's very similar.  Style had to change this season. Our identity is to work hard... press high and be strong in transition with good footballers on the break. It's no coincidence that our away form is better than home. Although we are also pretty effective at home if we score first making teams come out at us. 

Lee Johnson has consistently improved us and deserves the opportunity to keep taking us forward. We all knew we needed a striker this season and we signed one who was proven at this level and we know how that ended up.

I expect us to again sort this out in January although we know players come at a premium. 

I would like to remind some that the last time in this league we started languishing mid table we sacked our manager and subsequently got relegated. 

For me its keep the young players developing, we have a lot of exceptional potential. Take the rough with the smooth and accept that it's a game of football, 11 players trying to beat us and stop us as we do them each week. So quit this until we have to see we arent moving forward any longer and enjoy supporting bcfc in potentially their best phase in the clubs history 

 

Amen

 

[Three Lions]

We gotta get out of this place (Angelic Upstarts album) = Last two home games.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

We gotta get out of this place (Angelic Upstarts album) = Last two home games.

For the oldies, like me, that conjures up The Animals a few years earlier...