What is our identity that LJ always bangs on about?

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

They might be attempting to maintain possession, however:

The opposition normally re-take possession, not because we have a valid attempt at goal that breaks down, but because we constantly give it back with sloppy passing. I mean, pub-team quality passing in many games. 

 If individual skills cannot meet the team intent (maintain possession) the team is not being constructed to meet that goal. 

[marmite]

9 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

They might be attempting to maintain possession, however:

The opposition normally re-take possession, not because we have a valid attempt at goal that breaks down, but because we constantly give it back with sloppy passing. I mean, pub-team quality passing in many games. 

There seems to be a lack of confidence running through the team lately where players are giving the ball to anyone, regardless of the danger, just to pass on the responsibility to a teammate . Our midfield and wingers come deep to receive the ball and are given it even if they have an opposing player on their back. Teams are now closing us down and pressing us quickly knowing our players will panic. I know people will say "hang on we are in the top 6 or 7", but I haven't seen us put in a 90min shift of confident football at home at all this season. Even against Huddersfield we conceded 2 and had periods of the game where we looked clueless. I have mentioned before that at a Senior Reds lunch,  LJ was asked by Robbored about our identity, and he couldn't answer.  I think LJ plans to counter the oppositions threats rather than play to our own strengths. Cautious as a player and cautious as a coach IMO.

[Olé]

Annoyingly, I felt there was the beginnings of a consistent identity last season, even if it was defensive. We sat in and did the basics right, soaking up pressure, and then broke through Webster, Dasilva or further up the pitch Paterson and O'Dowda, players who could run with the ball and give us time to get numbers up the pitch in support (full backs pushing up), resulting in spells of attacking pressure where we had enough people forward to draw and occupy defenders and work proper chances, including crossing into areas where Fam or Weimann were not so marked that they couldn't attack the ball.

We reproduced that at Derby earlier this season, and as it turns out Williams or Moore can make the type of runs Webster offered us, but otherwise the football is quite different, as a team we don't carry the ball much besides from centre back, we rely on quick passing (even if it is sideways) rather than individual runs, and we try to hit the front early for Weimann or Famara, who are usually well marked. It worked when it was Palmer sitting deep and finding Afobe, but with most personnel this approach challenges the quality of our touch and passing, and needs to be flawless to come off (our second at Fulham).

So last season I would say our identity was defensive (one of the best defensive records in the division) with ability to shift play upfield through players willing to run with the ball. At home it was challenging as it was difficult to play on the break in this way against teams sitting in. This season, conversely, our identity in my opinion is more gung-ho, we're constantly passing inside or looking for early balls over the top, all of which has a higher propensity to breakdown. And so home is again challenging but this time for different reasons - as we're more prone to error and give visiting sides much more possession.

I don't think LJ owes any of us (bar his players) an explanation of the identity, but I agree that the phrase is irritatingly overused when this strategy has been amended one year to the next and seems so easily fallible. It is interesting that if you talk to a few opposition fans they do all talk about "Lee Johnson" football, so there is the perception of a progressive identity. It may be that OTIB focusses too much on poor performances and ignores the common elements of all positive performances that outsiders recognise - or it could simply be they are recognising LJ's basic principles of developing young busy players.

 

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, nickolas said:

O’Driscoll football!!!

Ive said it many many times. Yes we are better position than during his time here but the club is so much better structured and we are paying comparatively huge wages. 
But the possession at all costs football that goes nowhere is very much the same. 
We are a dream to play against. If you push up high on us we have no outball so you win it back so easily. 
Heres to finding an ‘identity’ in January!!

That last paragraph is the key to me for home games.

We don’t pass through the press well enough, often enough. Not enough work in midfield to create angles for passes.

When we do work those angles we break the press.

I wasn’t at Blackburn but for Millwall Brownhill was too close to our forwards as was Massengo. Nagy was isolated. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That last paragraph is the key to me for home games.

We don’t pass through the press well enough, often enough. Not enough work in midfield to create angles for passes.

When we do work those angles we break the press.

I wasn’t at Blackburn but for Millwall Brownhill was too close to our forwards as was Massengo. Nagy was isolated. 

Higher line would help with that too IMO- would make the team more compact, less of a gap between defence and midfield- which in turn could squeeze the opposition and create more angles in midfield.

Definitely agree with your last line too- if we leave any key player to fend for themselves a bit- be it Nagy, or even at CB when all fit, Moore as the out ball option, opposition will soon cotton on, negate this through pressing and we'll need to go back and think again- need a consistency of approach, but also a bit of variety- can't leave Nagy especially isolated.

[Red Army 87]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That last paragraph is the key to me for home games.

We don’t pass through the press well enough, often enough. Not enough work in midfield to create angles for passes.

When we do work those angles we break the press.

I wasn’t at Blackburn but for Millwall Brownhill was too close to our forwards as was Massengo. Nagy was isolated. 

Your point re passing through the press really shows where we miss Webster and Dasilva. Up until recently those positions have been occupied by Baker and Rowe, who have their strengths, but imo do not have the impact of the other two. Fortunately we will get JD back shortly, so it will be interesting to see how that side develops as I think Hunt / Perriera / Williams carry the ball better on the right.

quite easy to set up against though, less threat to the opposition from the left so they see more of the ball. No stats to back that up, just perception.

 

[City_USA]

I'd like to know what our identity would be if Deano or Macca were put in charge. They see the players daily and see 1st hand the issues we're having. 

You quite often see caretaker managers "go back to doing the basics right" and "putting square pegs in square holes"  and "grinding out results"

I often feel like LJ tries to be too clever and over complicates things. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw the players play with a smile on their faces. Nagy on Saturday comes to mind. 

I think that we would all be able to handle defeat a little better if we saw the team playing with more passion and joy and "expressing themselves". The talent is there, let them play LJ

[BCFC Rich]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That last paragraph is the key to me for home games.

We don’t pass through the press well enough, often enough. Not enough work in midfield to create angles for passes.

When we do work those angles we break the press.

I wasn’t at Blackburn but for Millwall Brownhill was too close to our forwards as was Massengo. Nagy was isolated. 

This and @Red Army 87 are spot on. I think Moore back in the side would help. You need players who can break the lines and step through the press if you're going to counter quickly. I think this is what LJ wants from COD when he plays him in CM he does break that midfield line well but then tends to carry the ball to far. If he could break the line then look for the pass he'd be a great asset there. It's another issue with taking Brownhill out of the middle he will drive forward with the ball at times. 

I think getting Moore back in and Dasilva fit will really help. 

 

 

[maxjak]

5 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

This and @Red Army 87 are spot on. I think Moore back in the side would help. You need players who can break the lines and step through the press if you're going to counter quickly. I think this is what LJ wants from COD when he plays him in CM he does break that midfield line well but then tends to carry the ball to far. If he could break the line then look for the pass he'd be a great asset there. It's another issue with taking Brownhill out of the middle he will drive forward with the ball at times. 

I think getting Moore back in and Dasilva fit will really help. 

 

 

I agree.........if we can get Dasilva back, re introduce Taylor Moore and hopefully recruit a goalscorer and posssibly another quality player, we could get back into the top 6.   I believe the new window is crucial to our progress.  Can we get it right ?.........IFHS!!

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

This and @Red Army 87 are spot on. I think Moore back in the side would help. You need players who can break the lines and step through the press if you're going to counter quickly. I think this is what LJ wants from COD when he plays him in CM he does break that midfield line well but then tends to carry the ball to far. If he could break the line then look for the pass he'd be a great asset there. It's another issue with taking Brownhill out of the middle he will drive forward with the ball at times. 

I think getting Moore back in and Dasilva fit will really help. 

 

 

Theoretically I agree.  However, having had the same opinion, and thinking that LCB in a two is easily transferable to LCB in a three, someone on here (@Shtanley I think) challenged me and said “no it’s not’.  Versus Barnsley was potentially proof, where a Moore didn’t really look as comfortable on the left side of a 3.  That 5-10 yards further left for a predominantly right footed player stifled his ball playing ability.

I do agree generally that Moore would improve playing out from the back, and I think there is opportunity to play him alongside Kalas in a two.  Both have pace too.

Ultimately, we need midfielders willing to work the angles.  We need front players happy to come short, but also willing to drag their marker short and spin them so we can bypass the press when required (short passing isn’t always on).  The beauty of the Fulham game was we kept short distances between our defence, midfield and attack.  From the bits I watched on a stream v Blackburn we didn’t - my favourite term - “we got strung out”!  We always struggle when we get stretched.

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, City_USA said:

I'd like to know what our identity would be if Deano or Macca were put in charge. They see the players daily and see 1st hand the issues we're having. 

You quite often see caretaker managers "go back to doing the basics right" and "putting square pegs in square holes"  and "grinding out results"

I often feel like LJ tries to be too clever and over complicates things. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw the players play with a smile on their faces. Nagy on Saturday comes to mind. 

I think that we would all be able to handle defeat a little better if we saw the team playing with more passion and joy and "expressing themselves". The talent is there, let them play LJ

It’s an assumption to think they aren’t all joined up!!!

You're probably right though.  Pembo went straight to a back 4 v Boro when Cotts was sacked.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Theoretically I agree.  However, having had the same opinion, and thinking that LCB in a two is easily transferable to LCB in a three, someone on here (@Shtanley I think) challenged me and said “no it’s not’.  Versus Barnsley was potentially proof, where a Moore didn’t really look as comfortable on the left side of a 3.  That 5-10 yards further left for a predominantly right footed player stifled his ball playing ability.

I do agree generally that Moore would improve playing out from the back, and I think there is opportunity to play him alongside Kalas in a two.  Both have pace too.

Ultimately, we need midfielders willing to work the angles.  We need front players happy to come short, but also willing to drag their marker short and spin them so we can bypass the press when required (short passing isn’t always on).  The beauty of the Fulham game was we kept short distances between our defence, midfield and attack.  From the bits I watched on a stream v Blackburn we didn’t - my favourite term - “we got strung out”!  We always struggle when we get stretched.

On the front players point, dragging short and spinning- Weimann a candidate? Diedhiou definitely however is not! Possibly in a false 9 in phases could spin and drag short.

Bypassing press, thinking the odd- not a huge number, but the odd Bentley to Nagy well targeted medium to long range pass could be one occasional to use.

Agree very much so on this, it is quite important for us. For me, I'd like to see these distances a bit higher up the pitch- in some games,a high line can do this, whereas in others such as Fulham away we can play as we did there- but these distances need to be kept quite moderate IMO.

[just like watching brazil]

To look world beaters one game then crap the next 3

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On the front players point, dragging short and spinning- Weimann a candidate? Diedhiou definitely however is not! Possibly in a false 9 in phases could spin and drag short.

Bypassing press, thinking the odd- not a huge number, but the odd Bentley to Nagy well targeted medium to long range pass could be one occasional to use.

Agree very much so on this, it is quite important for us. For me, I'd like to see these distances a bit higher up the pitch- in some games,a high line can do this, whereas in others such as Fulham away we can play as we did there- but these distances need to be kept quite moderate IMO.

Me too.  You can play a high line if you don’t give opponents time on the ball.

[IAmNick]

I'm certainly no expert but to me the players look terrified of trying something fresh and it not coming off. It seems to me when we have the ball they're waiting ponderously for something to appear ahead of them to create a situation they've  been coached for and if it doesn't, or something unexpected happens they're afraid and revert back to an easy pass to offload the ball and make it someone else's responsibility.

It looks a bit like one player with the ball, and 9 other outfielders watching them like in American football to see which play from the book they're going to attempt so they know exactly which run to make and who goes where - there's so little fluidity to it. When someone does do something unexpected - O'Dowda goes on a long run or a defender being quickly closed down for example, I rarely see players adapting and using their instincts running to pull defenders, open space, or make an angle for  pass. Instead they all stand there confused as to the unexpected scene unfolding in front of them as they're well into the third formation that game, and playbook to go along with it.

When it comes off it looks brilliant as it did for our goal at Fulham, but the rest of the time they just look paralysed. I fear that as Lee believes he is a very analytical and introspective (regarding the team as a whole) manager when things don't go well he will try and just coach more formations and movements for the team to follow.

I could be reading far too much into it (and probably am) but that's what it increasingly looks like to me. When the play book works we look unstoppable, but when it doesn't we can't adapt and our players have their natural flair and instinct coached out of them through rigidity.

 

[J-mat]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Theoretically I agree.  However, having had the same opinion, and thinking that LCB in a two is easily transferable to LCB in a three, someone on here (@Shtanley I think) challenged me and said “no it’s not’.  Versus Barnsley was potentially proof, where a Moore didn’t really look as comfortable on the left side of a 3.  That 5-10 yards further left for a predominantly right footed player stifled his ball playing ability.

I do agree generally that Moore would improve playing out from the back, and I think there is opportunity to play him alongside Kalas in a two.  Both have pace too.

Ultimately, we need midfielders willing to work the angles.  We need front players happy to come short, but also willing to drag their marker short and spin them so we can bypass the press when required (short passing isn’t always on).  The beauty of the Fulham game was we kept short distances between our defence, midfield and attack.  From the bits I watched on a stream v Blackburn we didn’t - my favourite term - “we got strung out”!  We always struggle when we get stretched.

This comes back to what I spoke about at the start of the season. The only thing I get frustrated about is the off the ball movement, particularly of Brownhill. I still think the bloke goes missing when we need to move the ball through the half spaces. You could see Nagy looking for that pass first half on Saturday and nobody moved in front of him, forcing him to take another touch and then lose it. 

Josh is a cracking player, but he could be so much more

[spudski]

1 minute ago, J-mat said:

This comes back to what I spoke about at the start of the season. The only thing I get frustrated about is the off the ball movement, particularly of Brownhill. I still think the bloke goes missing when we need to move the ball through the half spaces. You could see Nagy looking for that pass first half on Saturday and nobody moved in front of him, forcing him to take another touch and then lose it. 

Josh is a cracking player, but he could be so much more

Our offensive movement in the final third is very lacklustre. I agree about Brownhill. Goes missing...he was awful on Saturday. Two passes from him in recent games have resulted in the opposition scoring...a suicide ball to Massengo which was under hit with an opponent bearing down on Saturday, and a header back in a previous game led to the same out come. He was also skinned so many times when defending.

Weimann moves...but mainly into areas that don't hurt the opposition.

Famara will turn to salt sooner than later...rigourmortis has more movement.

Eliasson gets stuck on the touchline.

It's all so easy to defend against.

What's more annoying is our defence and DMs get it in the neck for not getting the ball forward and having to recycle again...all because they have no movement in front of them.

 

[J-mat]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Our offensive movement in the final third is very lacklustre. I agree about Brownhill. Goes missing...he was awful on Saturday. Two passes from him in recent games have resulted in the opposition scoring...a suicide ball to Massengo which was under hit with an opponent bearing down on Saturday, and a header back in a previous game led to the same out come. He was also skinned so many times when defending.

Weimann moves...but mainly into areas that don't hurt the opposition.

Famara will turn to salt sooner than later...rigourmortis has more movement.

Eliasson gets stuck on the touchline.

It's all so easy to defend against.

What's more annoying is our defence and DMs get it in the neck for not getting the ball forward and having to recycle again...all because they have no movement in front of them.

 

Yeah, and what I find frustrating is that they're all capable. When they play well they do it. Josh has been involved in some amazing free flowing goals, Fam has been incredible and unplayable, Kasey has been unstoppable. 

But they're championship players for a reason. They've been coached well enough, but they're just never gonna be perfect. 

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, J-mat said:

Yeah, and what I find frustrating is that they're all capable. When they play well they do it. Josh has been involved in some amazing free flowing goals, Fam has been incredible and unplayable, Kasey has been unstoppable. 

But they're championship players for a reason. They've been coached well enough, but they're just never gonna be perfect. 

Agreed...so frustrating. Is it a mindset? I often look at body language during the warm up, and you can often tell who's up for it and who isn't. So often in my head I'll call who'll play well and who won't.

It's like watching horses in the ring pre race. 

Guess the secret is motivating and getting into a battle mentality from the off.

Like you say...they are Championship players for a reason.

Watch the running and effort of the Liverpool frontline as an example and it's like chalk and cheese.

[Fpcity]

11 hours ago, Peter1450 said:

Maybe rose tinted glasses but I actually enjoyed  watching Danny Wilson’s football back in the day,just as entertaining as anything being served up by Johnson junior.

I was thinking about this last and how exciting it seemed especially at home. 

[cityloyal473]

We have a team that epitomised LJ as a player - slow, unimaginative, predictable, lacking aggression, destined to go nowhere. That's 'our' identity. 

[J-mat]

5 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

We have a team that epitomised LJ as a player - slow, unimaginative, predictable, lacking aggression, destined to go nowhere. That's 'our' identity. 

And there it is. Absolute aubergine.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

We have a team that epitomised LJ as a player - slow, unimaginative, predictable, lacking aggression, destined to go nowhere. That's 'our' identity. 

In what respect.

In terms of individuals or in terms of his game plan?

Don't agree with your assessment of our squad, nor do I believe that he was so bad as a player.

I do however question whether he will or even can get the best out of them 

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, paul_fox said:

I was thinking about this last and how exciting it seemed especially at home. 

The football was good certainly but also worth remembering that we were a bigger fish in a pretty moderate to quite small third tier pond. 

[cityloyal473]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In what respect.

In terms of individuals or in terms of his game plan?

Don't agree with your assessment of our squad, nor do I believe that he was so bad as a player.

I do however question whether he will or even can get the best out of them 

A bit of both to be honest.  I think the squad as a whole lacks aggression.  A number of times on Saturday we were half hearted into 50/50 balls and this is something I see quite often.  As for his game plan....what is it?  Bore the other team to death?

 

Agree on your last point.  He's actually quite an experienced manager as it stands.  He's done nothing of note though. Nothing.  And there is nothing to suggest he would be the one to get the team over any finishing line. Having said all that, he deserves more time, but I feel he (and his staff) are - like many at the club - legends in their own lunchtimes.  

[Bristol Oil Services]

6 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

Just watching Palace v Brighton, now did we not knock Palace out of this very divisions play offs not long ago? and Brighton, did we not beat them away in there promo season? where are they both now The Prem where are we....still here.

Thus as a commentater once said we are "The Nearly Club"  that is our identity so close but always so far; many clubs have and continue to pass us by while we, well just go round and round. Most know the script, we dont get knocked down and get up again as LJ recently said, we knock ourselves down season after season its as if we dont want to make that final push over the line. This will be repeated in Jan we know what we want and we also know we will only nearly get it. Prove me wrong BCFC GO FOR IT.

You don't go anymore, so don't worry about it. Have you done all your Chris-muss shopping yet?

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

Just watching Palace v Brighton, now did we not knock Palace out of this very divisions play offs not long ago? and Brighton, did we not beat them away in there promo season? where are they both now The Prem where are we....still here.

Thus as a commentater once said we are "The Nearly Club"  that is our identity so close but always so far; many clubs have and continue to pass us by while we, well just go round and round. Most know the script, we dont get knocked down and get up again as LJ recently said, we knock ourselves down season after season its as if we dont want to make that final push over the line. This will be repeated in Jan we know what we want and we also know we will only nearly get it. Prove me wrong BCFC GO FOR IT.

Oh dear, worth noting a few key differences and why they're or at certain stages were quite a bit ahead of us in their development.

The big moment was 2008 vs Hull...or possibly even 5-6 weeks earlier at Stoke when we lost it before halftime.

[BS4 on Tour...]

Our identity? Cider, Suspension Bridge, Robin, gateway to the West Country, laidback tolerant wurzels ....

[cidered abroad]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Our identity? Cider, Suspension Bridge, Robin, gateway to the West Country, laidback tolerant wurzels ....

And very adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Again and again!

[Major Isewater]

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The football was good certainly but also worth remembering that we were a bigger fish in a pretty moderate to quite small third tier pond. 

And still getting turned over by less talented ‘ tasty ‘ teams who had no prétentions and battled for the points .