Massengo

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Not sure I’ve ever seen Nagy’s torso.

My view is that Massengo is more a tad more physical than Nagy.  I think he’s lost a bit of agility and sharpness from bulking up over lockdown...that probably needs games to recover by playing minutes.

I watched Nagy closely last night and he really puts himself about despite his diminutive stature. His upper body strength is very impressive for a man his size. He’s like a pocket battleship. 

Can’t say the same about Massengo just yet.
 

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Not sure I’ve ever seen Nagy’s torso.

My view is that Massengo is more a tad more physical than Nagy.  I think he’s lost a bit of agility and sharpness from bulking up over lockdown...that probably needs games to recover by playing minutes.

I’ve not seen his torso either Dave......Just look at his physique next time you see him play.

[Robbored]

25 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Did you expect him to agree with you?

Of course not! MA sees anything that questions Citys players as a criticism.

[CodeRed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

 

I put that point to MA at Senior Reds earlier this year and he poo-pooed it........

Surely you should have poo-pood the poo-poo ?

[spudski]

50 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The big thing for me last night was probably for the first time this season it looked like we were playing with a midfield rather than sacrificing it in some hybrid 6-0-4 formation!!

With Nagy and Bakinson in there you see a lot more of O’Dowda on the ball in areas we want him on the ball and it will help Paterson when he returns too.

I think Massengo will inevitably be involved over the next few weeks. The schedule is absolute madness (I understand it has to be) and there will be more injuries and fatigue.

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing Massengo partnering Bakinson in midfield and playing Nagy in Odowda's role. He has the engine and has an eye for goal and more composed when shooting. He also has a better end product than Odowda imo...breaks lines, see's a pass...looks to play forward, rather than dribble and turn back which is an irritating feature Odowda has to his game.

[ralphindevon]

I’d love to see him get more game time. I caught a glimpse of him in training the other day and he’s one of those players that has such a good touch, it’s a natural gift, you can’t learn it.

we saw glimpses when he first arrived and the threads on here were could we keep him in the January window or would he be snapped up.

I'm sure that’s still there and remember he’s still only 19. Maybe he can go on loan like Bakinson, Plymouth wouldn’t be a bad shout, did ok for Bobby, Joe and Ty.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

I watched Nagy closely last night and he really puts himself about despite his diminutive stature. His upper body strength is very impressive for a man his size. He’s like a pocket battleship. 

Can’t say the same about Massengo just yet.
 

I think you might be the only poster on OTIB who might describe Nagy as being like a pocket battleship.

I’ve rarely seen him use his “physique” in any duel.  He’s a player who likes to intercept and nick it away, avoiding contact where possible.

The little run he made last night wasn’t him being physical, more weakness from his opponent.  Good play from him, but nothing to to either upper body strength imho.

Happy for you to disagree.

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think you might be the only poster on OTIB who might describe Nagy as being like a pocket battleship.

I’ve rarely seen him use his “physique” in any duel.  He’s a player who likes to intercept and nick it away, avoiding contact where possible.

The little run he made last night wasn’t him being physical, more weakness from his opponent.  Good play from him, but nothing to to either upper body strength imho.

Happy for you to disagree.

How we see players perform is always subjective and last night Nagy looked strong and combative to me, using his upper body strength to his advantage.

It wasn’t just me who thought he did really well night - he’s had his own thread on here earlier today.

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

How we see players perform is always subjective and last night Nagy looked strong and combative to me, using his upper body strength to his advantage.

It wasn’t just me who thought he did really well night - he’s had his own thread on here earlier today.

Who’s talking about his level of performance?  That’s not the debating point.  He had a good game.

We are debating his physique.

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

I’ve not seen his torso either Dave......Just look at his physique next time you see him play.

I defy you to watch that video and think (in pro footballer terms) that’s a strong upper body.  To you and I that’s incredibly fit / lean.  You’ll be telling Pato is a stocky ball-winner next

[RedRock]

He uses every ounce of his body strength to maximum effect. His balance and movement in close contact  superb. 

A couple of his ball-winning challenges yesterday were near to perfection.

 

The lad’s won me over (for the present time anyhow). 

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Who’s talking about his level of performance?  That’s not the debating point.  He had a good game.

We are debating his physique.

I defy you to watch that video and think (in pro footballer terms) that’s a strong upper body.  To you and I that’s incredibly fit / lean.  You’ll be telling Pato is a stocky ball-winner next

Watch the clip on Earduns post on this thread and tell me he doesn’t have good upper body strength.

[spudski]

I think maybe some people are seeing Massengo as weak because of the way he uses his body to shield the ball and draw a foul. He's got good body positioning. And he does shield the ball well. In that way he plays more like a continental player. Nagy plays differently to that.

[RedRock]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think maybe some people are seeing Massengo as weak because of the way he uses his body to shield the ball and draw a foul. He's got good body positioning. And he does shield the ball well. In that way he plays more like a continental player. Nagy plays differently to that.

I think Nagy has that in his locker personally. Watch a couple of ball winning incidents yesterday, he gets his body very quickly and nimbly in between the opposition player and the ball. 

Very cute and a very un-English style. Impressive.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Watch the clip on Earduns post on this thread and tell me he doesn’t have good upper body strength.

I have, I don’t see that as Nagy’s upper body strength (he hasn’t got his body over the top in a block tackle motion), more like weak tackling by Johnson.  He was stronger with his leg, possibly through forward momentum.

So I’m telling you imho he doesn’t have great upper body strength.

[eardun]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I have, I don’t see that as Nagy’s upper body strength (he hasn’t got his body over the top in a block tackle motion), more like weak tackling by Johnson.  He was stronger with his leg, possibly through forward momentum.

So I’m telling you imho he doesn’t have great upper body strength.

Agree. That move by Nagy - although great (and I’ve watched it a few times as I like it so much!) - was lower body strength/agility rather than upper body strength. 

[old_eastender]

19 hours ago, Northern Red said:

Holden namechecked him last night when talking about players showing a good attitude despite not being involved. Acknowledged that he's probably not happy not to be playing but he's working hard and ready to take his chance if he gets it.

Ideally he'd go out on loan but he'd need Walsh and Williams to be back by the end of January to have any chance of it.

I still think Massengo has a lot to offer so hopefully Holden will actually use him, at least as backup to Bakinson/Nagy, rather than giving the hapless Brunt game time.

Agree if Willaims/Walsh actually fit to play in Jan, then a loan out for Massengo would be ideal. 

[Curr Avon]

18 hours ago, Robbored said:

Or Sunderland............

Côte d'Azur, or Eau ver coat? Its a tricky one.

[Bris Red]

On 10/12/2020 at 12:25, Super said:

We struggle to fill a bench as it is why on earth would we look to loan him out next month?

Unless we are looking to add a couple in January..I’ve said it before about Massengo i think a loan to a club on the continent would be far more beneficial than a league one loan to be honest.

[Prinny]

The problem with Massengo is that we spent £2.5 million+ and rising (going off speculation) on who will be our 8th choice midfielder who is in no way contributing to our success. He's also a year and a half into a reported 4 year deal so this coming summer is the ideal time to sell usually (Covid) with 2 years left on the contract.

So we have a player who SPECIFICALLY came to play football, not playing football, with no reason to extend that deal and if things continue as is, we're not only not going to make this profit we hoped for, we're not even going to make the money back. Maybe he'll extend because he really believes in the club like Taylor Moore did... Maybe we can throw money at him. Hopefully there's a sneaky +1 year option that wasn't reported on, which will make my post pretty irrelevant (for a year).

With respect to our other young talent, we can't just loan him out to league 2 and expect him to sign a new 4 year contract. So while people are screaming be patient. We can't. Because we need to play him or sell him, fast. It's nothing to do with his ability, it's about the deal and the leverage.

If we loan him out in Jan, he then has to come back and be good next season. And if he's good next season, then he's got one year left, and we're in the Eliasson/Diedhiou situation. People might bring up his age there, but he's French, it's not as if he can't just sign for someone there and he's already shown he's willing to go somewhere foreign to get football.

So we have a financial problem here, and we can't really AFFORD to "patient" about it.

Holden and to be fair Johnson have been set the task of developing players WHILE winning. That's hard. That's why Ferguson and Wenger and now Klopp are seen so highly. And some players are going to be casualties of that. You can't just let younger players be rubbish and expect results and Holden has to pick a team to get results for his and the clubs sake.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

Unless we are looking to add a couple in January..I’ve said it before about Massengo i think a loan to a club on the continent would be far more beneficial than a league one loan to be honest.

Yep, agreed.

Ligue 1 (the French one ) one of the better sides in Ligue 2 or a reasonable Bundesliga 2 side would be best.

[Wade Wilson]

Crazy idea- we could play him? Before Nagy came in not long ago you had people on here saying he was absolute rubbish, a “get rid”, he turned out alright didn’t he? 
 

How many people before this season were on the Bakinson hype train? 
 

Massengo hasn’t been given an opportunity this year so we have no idea where he’s at, the “well Deano knows” argument went out the window with Nagy. 
 

Play him, play him in the middle instead of COD and see how he does. We know there’s an excellent player in there, don’t we? 

[Bris Red]

29 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said:

Crazy idea- we could play him? Before Nagy came in not long ago you had people on here saying he was absolute rubbish, a “get rid”, he turned out alright didn’t he? 
 

How many people before this season were on the Bakinson hype train? 
 

Massengo hasn’t been given an opportunity this year so we have no idea where he’s at, the “well Deano knows” argument went out the window with Nagy. 
 

Play him, play him in the middle instead of COD and see how he does. We know there’s an excellent player in there, don’t we? 

I would definitely be of the view to give him a run of games in the middle instead of COD before we think about loaning him out.  What have we got to lose? Granted COD’s performances have improved in recent weeks but you still don’t really know what player is going to turn up from one week to the next with him.. Massengo already has a much superior footballing brain to COD anyway IMO.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Prinny said:

The problem with Massengo is that we spent £2.5 million+ and rising (going off speculation) on who will be our 8th choice midfielder who is in no way contributing to our success. He's also a year and a half into a reported 4 year deal so this coming summer is the ideal time to sell usually (Covid) with 2 years left on the contract.

So we have a player who SPECIFICALLY came to play football, not playing football, with no reason to extend that deal and if things continue as is, we're not only not going to make this profit we hoped for, we're not even going to make the money back. Maybe he'll extend because he really believes in the club like Taylor Moore did... Maybe we can throw money at him. Hopefully there's a sneaky +1 year option that wasn't reported on, which will make my post pretty irrelevant (for a year).

With respect to our other young talent, we can't just loan him out to league 2 and expect him to sign a new 4 year contract. So while people are screaming be patient. We can't. Because we need to play him or sell him, fast. It's nothing to do with his ability, it's about the deal and the leverage.

If we loan him out in Jan, he then has to come back and be good next season. And if he's good next season, then he's got one year left, and we're in the Eliasson/Diedhiou situation. People might bring up his age there, but he's French, it's not as if he can't just sign for someone there and he's already shown he's willing to go somewhere foreign to get football.

So we have a financial problem here, and we can't really AFFORD to "patient" about it.

Holden and to be fair Johnson have been set the task of developing players WHILE winning. That's hard. That's why Ferguson and Wenger and now Klopp are seen so highly. And some players are going to be casualties of that. You can't just let younger players be rubbish and expect results and Holden has to pick a team to get results for his and the clubs sake.

No additional year option reported.

He is also qualified as a club developed player (got to have one in your 18/20).  Not anything major, but often forgotten.

Playing wise....Johnson told us that he wanted him to be around the first team, i.e. he didn’t come to play u23s....but he didn’t come to play every week, he came to be involved with the first team, which happened.  He featured in the match day squad 43/49 games.  I’m sure the minutes he got last season exceeded his and club’s expectations...over 2000.  Partly due to Nagy’s injury, partly due to Brownhill’s sale.  You can’t take that away from him...I’m not suggesting you are either.

Being 8th choice now is not a problem if in 12/18/24 (etc) months he's 4th or 5th (or higher) and getting regular squad time and minutes.  Look at Nagy, look at Bakinson, etc.

Re “with respect to our other young talent, we....” - We signed Taylor Moore (from French football) for £1m+ (Transfer values grew in 3 years), played him a bit, loaned him out to Lg1, then Lg2, then Lg1 again and we extended his contract despite him not being a regular.  So I don’t buy “play him or sell him fast”.  Players sign or don’t sign contracts for various reasons.

You're making an assumption we have a finance problem here.  His £2.5m fee is amortising evenly over 4 years.  Nobody wants or expects us to lose the whole lot on him.  Don’t forget he’s 19, at the end of this season he’ll still be 19 (albeit 20 over the summer).  Even when his contract expires he’ll only be 21 (about to turn 22).  I feel we have plenty of time to judge what happens next.

Don’t forget that City will be entitled to compensation (hence unlikely we’d lose all of our outlay anyway) if he rejects a contract due to lack of game time / progress, so that’s another factor that takes the rush out of the equation.  So very different situation to Eliasson and Diedhiou, who were both different too, because had an option and the other didn’t.

Eliasson we ended up selling.  We don’t know Fam’s fate yet.

Personally I think PATIENCE is the order of the day.

Interesting Holden’s quotes this week.  At least We have a manager who recognises the situation we are in with players on the fringes, who might fall deeper into the queue as players return from injury.  But Massengo wouldn’t be the first player to burst onto the scene, fall into the shadows, and then re-emerge a year or so later for the better.

 

[Prinny]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Being 8th choice now is not a problem if in 12/18/24 (etc) months he's 4th or 5th (or higher) and getting regular squad time and minutes.  Look at Nagy, look at Bakinson, etc.

Yeah if the situation changes completely then it's a different situation :laugh:! It is a problem. It's a problem now for him. You can't just ignore an issue now because it MIGHT not be an issue in the future. And you can't erase previous problems. Nagy was so far down the pecking order if there was sensible interest he'd be gone IMO. Just like Morrell. Now that's a problem if you rate a player and think he can contribute or you fail to maximise value from player because of a misjudgement of their ability. This is obvious.

Re “with respect to our other young talent, we....” - We signed Taylor Moore (from French football) for £1m+ (Transfer values grew in 3 years), played him a bit, loaned him out to Lg1, then Lg2, then Lg1 again and we extended his contract despite him not being a regular.  So I don’t buy “play him or sell him fast”.  Players sign or don’t sign contracts for various reasons.

With that timeline you have to be talking about the 2019 extension. We extended his contract after the Leeds game he was picked for. There's sensible reasons for him to assume he'd get more game time. What logical reason does Massengo have when he can't get much game time now and we have players coming back? Very very different circumstances IMO.

You're making an assumption we have a finance problem here.  There's a problem any time we don't get the most out of the money we spend as a club. If we do not use a player spend money on, and fail to maximise sales there's an issue definitely. I think making bad decisions around transfers turns into a financial problem yes!

His £2.5m fee is amortising evenly over 4 years.  Nobody wants or expects us to lose the whole lot on him.   Don’t forget he’s 19, at the end of this season he’ll still be 19 (albeit 20 over the summer).  Even when his contract expires he’ll only be 21 (about to turn 22).   I feel we have plenty of time to judge what happens next.

Don’t forget that City will be entitled to compensation (hence unlikely we’d lose all of our outlay anyway) if he rejects a contract due to lack of game time / progress, so that’s another factor that takes the rush out of the equation.  So very different situation to Eliasson and Diedhiou, who were both different too, because had an option and the other didn’t.

Don't forget that transfers to the continent will be under FIFA's training costs compensatory packages formula and won't be high and are non negotiable. Don't think that he's under a certain age so it's fine to let his contract tick down especially with a player who's foreign and has already moved abroad.

A 3+1 and a 4 year deal are the same when you have one year left AFAIK. I'm not sure if there's any purpose to pointing out a difference there. 1+1 is the same as two when you want to keep a player.

Eliasson we ended up selling.  We don’t know Fam’s fate yet.

What we can highly assume is that fees with one and two years left on a deal are likely to be different so that's why it's an issue in the above scenario of him being loaned out. I think it's best for him btw, just pointing out the issues it could cause us. 

Personally I think PATIENCE is the order of the day. Yes for player development, no for finances.

Interesting Holden’s quotes this week.  At least We have a manager who recognises the situation we are in with players on the fringes, who might fall deeper into the queue as players return from injury.  But Massengo wouldn’t be the first player to burst onto the scene, fall into the shadows, and then re-emerge a year or so later for the better.

Sure but you run the risk of losing them and ceding leverage more if it's towards the end of a contract, hence the need to not be patient. So just respectfully totally disagree.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Who’s talking about his level of performance?  That’s not the debating point.  He had a good game.

We are debating his physique.

I defy you to watch that video and think (in pro footballer terms) that’s a strong upper body.  To you and I that’s incredibly fit / lean.  You’ll be telling Pato is a stocky ball-winner next

Agreed - he's a typical endurance athlete. Ectomorphic, excellent stamina. Football isn't necessarily a game of brute force anyway, especially in midfield. Sometimes people mistake aggression and timing for physicality.

As for Massengo, he's yet to gain his 'man strength' yet. He's also pretty slight, but over the next couple of years he'll naturally grow and fill out. 

One to watch is Semenyo - he's clearly a very natural athlete and more mesomorphic, he will really fill out and become quite a force I think. The club also felt this would happen with Lloyd Kelly.

[Phileas Fogg]

5 hours ago, Prinny said:

The problem with Massengo is that we spent £2.5 million+ and rising (going off speculation) on who will be our 8th choice midfielder who is in no way contributing to our success. He's also a year and a half into a reported 4 year deal so this coming summer is the ideal time to sell usually (Covid) with 2 years left on the contract.

So we have a player who SPECIFICALLY came to play football, not playing football, with no reason to extend that deal and if things continue as is, we're not only not going to make this profit we hoped for, we're not even going to make the money back. Maybe he'll extend because he really believes in the club like Taylor Moore did... Maybe we can throw money at him. Hopefully there's a sneaky +1 year option that wasn't reported on, which will make my post pretty irrelevant (for a year).

With respect to our other young talent, we can't just loan him out to league 2 and expect him to sign a new 4 year contract. So while people are screaming be patient. We can't. Because we need to play him or sell him, fast. It's nothing to do with his ability, it's about the deal and the leverage.

If we loan him out in Jan, he then has to come back and be good next season. And if he's good next season, then he's got one year left, and we're in the Eliasson/Diedhiou situation. People might bring up his age there, but he's French, it's not as if he can't just sign for someone there and he's already shown he's willing to go somewhere foreign to get football.

So we have a financial problem here, and we can't really AFFORD to "patient" about it.

Holden and to be fair Johnson have been set the task of developing players WHILE winning. That's hard. That's why Ferguson and Wenger and now Klopp are seen so highly. And some players are going to be casualties of that. You can't just let younger players be rubbish and expect results and Holden has to pick a team to get results for his and the clubs sake.

Your posts are always so dramatic with the use of CAPS for EMPHASIS 

[Davefevs]

@Prinny your whole post is based on an assumption....that’s there’s a problem with the current situation (either player, club or both) and that it may manifest into more / a different problem(s) in future.

Nagy - how do you know?

Moore - whoever instigated the 2019 extension it ended up with the player and club being happy to extend.  Moore was happy to take a 50% wage cut to extend his deal and give himself further development time.

FIFA (Bosman) rule kicks in at 23, unless you are referring to a different rule.  Perhaps I should say fee set by a tribunal rather than compensation....as long as we offer him a contract of equal standing or greater than his current one 6 months in advance of it running out.  I’m aware of youth development competition where a player has moved from developed country to another and then transfers again.  Always happy to learn new stuff.  

The difference with the year option is there’s no obligation and the option year terms have already been pre-determined.  I get your point though.

From a financial point of view, the amortisation will be baked into the books as a £625k cost each year of his contract, with residual value zero.  City’s approach to mitigating that risk will have multiple strategies ranging from do nothing to do something, where do something might be sell, might be extend contract, etc etc.  Circumstances at various checkpoints will dictate, especially transfer Windows and key contract points.

Peterborough have a policy where they transfer list any player in their final year.  Those they want to keep they try and tie down before that point.  Man Utd used to try to stick to a similar approach but base it in 2 years.  No idea whether City’s has any rigidity to it.

Re a loan, I see a benefit, assuming right club, right terms, etc....I just don’t agree that it informs a sort of make it break decision this summer.

I don’t think there is a sweet spot in where a player is in his contract in determining transfer fees.  There are some obvious triggers where you might see transfer values drop, e.g. final year but ahead of that so much can depend on player form, interest, etc etc.

I agree that next season will start to inform where both player and club might see their future relationship  going, I respectfully totally disagree and that patience is still very much the order of the day imho.

 

 

[maxjak]

As i have definitely mentioned before............Han Noah Massengo is 19, that''s NINETEEN if you missed it.  The kid played a lot of games when he first arrived due to  circumstances, he acquitted himself well, but now due to the squad, and players returning from injuries he has not been required to play so regularly.  He is   a teenager and is still growing and maturing .  I think the intention was always to keep him around the squad and play him occasionally so as to acclimatise him gradually.  He is a work in progress as i see it, and i am certain that he will eventually become an exceptional player.  A loan spell at a suitable club would maybe be a good idea to keep adding to his experience, but whatever the  route taken. he is a player in the long term who i am sure will become special.  Any thoughts of selling him are ludicrous......as Davefevs alluded to, patience is what is needed, and hopefully by the time he is 21 /22 we will reap the benefit?   PS. You only have to look at Nagy's physique to see he lacks upper body strength, his game is speed, guile and anticipation

[Prinny]

 

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Prinny your whole post is based on an assumption....that’s there’s a problem with the current situation (either player, club or both) and that it may manifest into more / a different problem(s) in future.

I'm working off the assumption that Northern Red isn't lying earlier in the thread when they mention Holden talking about Massengo and that Holden isn't lying or is at least guessing correctly when he spoke about Massengo.

"Holden namechecked him last night when talking about players showing a good attitude despite not being involved. Acknowledged that he's probably not happy not to be playing but he's working hard and ready to take his chance if he gets it."

I'm talking about how I view things as they are now and if nothing changes except the constant of time while you're talking about how things could be if they change. You're adding additional elements in. I could equally make the point that he could be 17th choice in a month, it doesn't really make a good discussion if we move the goal posts like that IMO. 

Nagy - how do you know?

I just think there's a base amount of assumptions you can make when thinking about things. I think you're close to going down the route of if it's not on the official site then it doesn't exist and it's just speculation so there's no point talking about it. Except when you throw in additional elements to say it could be fine in the future. Then it's fine to speculate! If you think my assumptions are too much, fine. I personally don't think that me thinking a player would be unhappy or want to play football when they're not is too much since our coach apparently has just said that exact thing about another player. Everyone will have different views on what is a fair assumption or not.

Moore - whoever instigated the 2019 extension it ended up with the player and club being happy to extend.  Moore was happy to take a 50% wage cut to extend his deal and give himself further development time.

That's two different contract extensions. One in 2018, one in 2019 where he's in very different places in regards to the first team.

FIFA (Bosman) rule kicks in at 23, unless you are referring to a different rule.  Perhaps I should say fee set by a tribunal rather than compensation....as long as we offer him a contract of equal standing or greater than his current one 6 months in advance of it running out.  I’m aware of youth development competition where a player has moved from developed country to another and then transfers again.  Always happy to learn new stuff.  

I'm referring to what happens when a player transfers before the end of the season of his 23rd birthday. The EPL and EFL have a different set of regulations for out of contract transfers than when they transfer between associations which is covered by FIFA.

Re a loan, I see a benefit, assuming right club, right terms, etc....I just don’t agree that it informs a sort of make it break decision this summer.

I don’t think there is a sweet spot in where a player is in his contract in determining transfer fees.  There are some obvious triggers where you might see transfer values drop, e.g. final year but ahead of that so much can depend on player form, interest, etc etc.

Yes but one of the factors is contract length. I'm not arguing it's the only factor. Just that it is one. A big one because of the way compensation has usually panned out for the club a player leaves. It's a sliding scale rather than make or break where it becomes more problematic the more the situation goes on hence my view that there's a time pressure. And i'll admit my poor use of language. Of course we can afford it, but it's not good because every penny matters in FFP. As it is, we're wasting resources and time's ticking on us wasting more. If things change, then they change and I update my views accordingly.

I agree that next season will start to inform where both player and club might see their future relationship  going, I respectfully totally disagree and that patience is still very much the order of the day imho.

[Davefevs]

as per usual, you seem have your own rules on how to debate on a forum, that others aren’t allowed to use in response...it kinda defeats the point of a forum.  I don’t feel that quoting your posts where I have a different opinion is worth the effort anymore, I find your responses very passive aggressive.  So I’ll leave you to it.  I’ll interact with other posters who I can reasonably have a good discussion with.