22A Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 Couldn't see this posted elsewhere. Last night Livingstone's 2nd goal was superbly struck by former City player Jay Emmanuel Thomas. He ran around a lot with commitment, struck that goal well and minutes later was helping out the defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, 22A said: Couldn't see this posted elsewhere. Last night Livingstone's 2nd goal was superbly struck by former City player Jay Emmanuel Thomas. He ran around a lot with commitment, struck that goal well and minutes later was helping out the defence. There is no way we would currently be a worse side with JET in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Skin Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I shall miss the day when he finally hangs up his boots and we don't get a thread every now and again mentioning him. Not good enough for the Championship, but loved watching him play when he was with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted January 21, 2021 Admin Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 43 minutes ago, 22A said: Couldn't see this posted elsewhere. Last night Livingstone's 2nd goal was superbly struck by former City player Jay Emmanuel Thomas. He ran around a lot with commitment, struck that goal well and minutes later was helping out the defence. Not aimed specifically at you, but the search facility is useful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 16 minutes ago, Red Skin said: Not good enough for the Championship, Had the God-given talent to play at the very top of The Premier (or any other league you'd care to mention.) Sadly, that wasn't matched with commensurate attitude or commitment - not he's done badly by his career. From the first time he came to my attention ripping us to shreds for Doncaster Rovers I thought he had the world (as well as objectionably coloured boots,) at his feet. In the words of Ian Dury: "What A Waste..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 22 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Had the God-given talent to play at the very top of The Premier (or any other league you'd care to mention.) Sadly, that wasn't matched with commensurate attitude or commitment - not he's done badly by his career. From the first time he came to my attention ripping us to shreds for Doncaster Rovers I thought he had the world (as well as objectionably coloured boots,) at his feet. In the words of Ian Dury: "What A Waste..." I’m sure attitude plays a part, but I don’t think he’s physically built to play at the top level. He’s a funny shape for a footballer, not fat on him during his time here, but you could see it was a struggle for him to move his frame around the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Skin Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 44 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Had the God-given talent to play at the very top of The Premier (or any other league you'd care to mention.) Sadly, that wasn't matched with commensurate attitude or commitment - not he's done badly by his career. From the first time he came to my attention ripping us to shreds for Doncaster Rovers I thought he had the world (as well as objectionably coloured boots,) at his feet. In the words of Ian Dury: "What A Waste..." He was amazing that day for Doncaster playing for Sean O'Driscoll IIRC. Think he enjoyed the standing ovation he got from the Atyeo after the game. I would be loathed to say he wasted his talent. As I said on a thread about David Noble, everyone has right to live the life that want and maybe JET's happy relaxed attitude to life and the game is the very thing that made him such an audacious talent and such at ease in expressing himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, Red Skin said: He was amazing that day for Doncaster playing for Sean O'Driscoll IIRC. Think he enjoyed the standing ovation he got from the Atyeo after the game. I would be loathed to say he wasted his talent. As I said on a thread about David Noble, everyone has right to live the life that want and maybe JET's happy relaxed attitude to life and the game is the very thing that made him such an audacious talent and such at ease in expressing himself. I don't disagree and clearly JET is at ease with himself. That said, I think it wouldn't be human, if upon reflection, not to sit down in old age and think what one might have achieved had one applied oneself. With application JET wouldn't have lost his audacity, he'd simply have done more of what he did brilliantly more frequently and to greater plaudit. He truly was THAT good and that we didn't witness his full potential is our loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 When he was at Arsenal he worked really hard on his fitness...really hard. Like Dave said...he isn't naturally fit, and his body isn't condusife to football in the top tiers. I guess he realised however hard he tried, he was never going to be fit enough, regardless of effort, to stay in the top tiers. Must be disheartening to have the skills, but lack a body that regardless of training, won't keep you at the top. Feel for him....if he'd been born earlier he'd have been a football legend. Didn't realise until recently he started out as a CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1ackbird Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 I think I've watched his goal v the Gas more than Smiths v Man U.. Rovers shock and awe, beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted January 21, 2021 Report Share Posted January 21, 2021 59 minutes ago, spudski said: When he was at Arsenal he worked really hard on his fitness...really hard. Like Dave said...he isn't naturally fit, and his body isn't condusife to football in the top tiers. I guess he realised however hard he tried, he was never going to be fit enough, regardless of effort, to stay in the top tiers. Must be disheartening to have the skills, but lack a body that regardless of training, won't keep you at the top. Feel for him....if he'd been born earlier he'd have been a football legend. Didn't realise until recently he started out as a CB. Trundle, JET, Tomlin, they are the footballers i don’t mind paying to watch as they can do things with a football on a pitch most others cant, unfortunately they don’t really fit in to the modern game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 4 hours ago, spudski said: Like Dave said...he isn't naturally fit, and his body isn't condusife to football in the top tiers. Where to start - Jan Molby, John Robertson, Ronaldo (N), Puskas, John Charles....? JET for nearly all his playing career has been 6'2" weighing in at 12 1/2 stone. Naturally fit my ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 10 hours ago, JonDolman said: Saw a bit of that game last night. Would be amazed if he would be any good for us now I agree 100%, without turning this into a thread that slags off Scottish football (because I actually enjoy watching it) there is no doubt that 80% of the players in the SPL are League One level or lower. JET is not a regular 90 min man in that Livingston team. If he was at City, he'd be 10 mins off the bench at best and hoping he could deliver a bit of magic whilst not costing us too much in that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 7 hours ago, BTRFTG said: Where to start - Jan Molby, John Robertson, Ronaldo (N), Puskas, John Charles....? JET for nearly all his playing career has been 6'2" weighing in at 12 1/2 stone. Naturally fit my ****. I agree...different times though. Football has moved on, and at the top levels fitness levels are more important than natural ability on the ball...if you can't run and sprint all game to a certain level, you'll struggle. Height and weight has nothing to do with it...it's the ability to be fit and run. You can be skinny as, and still however hard you try, your body won't get to top professional level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 14 hours ago, BTRFTG said: Had the God-given talent to play at the very top of The Premier (or any other league you'd care to mention.) Sadly, that wasn't matched with commensurate attitude or commitment - not he's done badly by his career. From the first time he came to my attention ripping us to shreds for Doncaster Rovers I thought he had the world (as well as objectionably coloured boots,) at his feet. In the words of Ian Dury: "What A Waste..." How do you create talent without hard work? Technique turning to skill is the result of creating neural pathways. The more you practice, the more myelination occurs, the more embedded and easily to call upon the skills become. There is no skill gene. There is no football talent gene leading to babies coming out of the womb being able to perform football skills ... It is all learned by repetition. Play a game think of a list of exceptionally skilful players. The list will almost certainly disproportionately include players with body shapes that are not particularly athletic. Frequently these players will have had to wok harder at honing skill to overcome their physical limitations to become pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_eastender Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 Highlights: Livingston 2-2 Celtic - BBC Sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 22, 2021 Report Share Posted January 22, 2021 55 minutes ago, Cowshed said: How do you create talent without hard work? At its most basic level football is simply a measure of visual-spatial co-ordination. In that respect some are biologically formed to perform that task better than others. So yes, in one's ability to control a ball and shift it around the park some are much better than others from birth. Likewise, in the playing of the game spatial awareness is possibly the key component hence some are better than others. This isn't learned, it's innate. Exercise & practice builds muscle, you can't increase the number or conductivity of nerve fibres (only promote regeneration which is a slow process.) If one could produce myelin through repetitive exercise we wouldn't see so many suffer the effects of MS, ALD or myelitis. Visualization doesn't create though does programme neural networks to promote specific, visual-spatial coordination, though it's impacts are largely overstated for a whole raft of associated psychological reasons. It's also incorrect to assume some body types are non-athletic, rather ones innate physique determines what type of athletic performance one is best at. Look at any athletics field, or NFL squad &, like football, you'll note it takes all sorts. Le Tissier folks often suggested was 'lazy' because of the way he ran with a slightly stooped head, yet analyse his game & covered more yards than most. We like to highlight those with signature movement characteristics (think twinkle-toes Cormack who ever looked busy prancing up & down though who covered no more ground than the low-slung & relatively anonymous Jimmy Mann.) JET wasn't limited by his physique, or the fact we liked to think his wide & high shoulder carry made him stand out. JET's limitation was psychological and could be observed in the first 10 minutes of every game he played. He was either 'up for it' or he wasn't. What made the difference only he knows. The fact he was unable to get himself mentally prepared to exploit his God-given skills each game was his weakness, much as you say there are plenty of low grade players who make a career for themselves by consistently being able to 'put in a shift'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 A thought provoking response. I will attempt to keep the reply short. I am not intending to be terse. It could end up being seriously long .. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: At its most basic level football is simply a measure of visual-spatial co-ordination. In that respect some are biologically formed to perform that task better than others. Yes and across divergent humans the differences are percentiles. Virtually all humans have the talent to form footballing skill. There is no skill gene. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: Exercise & practice builds muscle, you can't increase the number or conductivity of nerve fibres I did not suggest this occurred. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: If one could produce myelin through repetitive exercise we wouldn't see so many suffer the effects of MS, ALD or myelitis. Exercises does stimulate myelination. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: Visualization doesn't create though does programme neural networks to promote specific, visual-spatial coordination, though it's impacts are largely overstated for a whole raft of associated psychological reasons. I didn't make any point about visualisation. From my psychology education and studies I don't feel its impacts are over stated. The evidence used underlines the marginal effects. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: It's also incorrect to assume some body types are non-athletic, rather ones innate physique determines what type of athletic performance one is best at. Look at any athletics field, or NFL squad &, like football, you'll note it takes all sorts. I maybe should have been more specific. Football does lean itself towards body shapes that are more ecto and meso v endo. It is not exclusive to these shapes. On 22/01/2021 at 10:38, BTRFTG said: Le Tissier folks often suggested was 'lazy' because of the way he ran with a slightly stooped head, yet analyse his game & covered more yards than most. We like to highlight those with signature movement characteristics (think twinkle-toes Cormack who ever looked busy prancing up & down though who covered no more ground than the low-slung & relatively anonymous Jimmy Mann.) JET wasn't limited by his physique, or the fact we liked to think his wide & high shoulder carry made him stand out. JET's limitation was psychological and could be observed in the first 10 minutes of every game he played. He was either 'up for it' or he wasn't. What made the difference only he knows. The fact he was unable to get himself mentally prepared to exploit his God-given skills each game was his weakness, much as you say there are plenty of low grade players who make a career for themselves by consistently being able to 'put in a shift'. Matt Le Tissier in 4-4-2 claims otherwise. He did not cover more yards than most. I would not suggest he was lazy, but I would also not suggest he is an endurance athlete. I didn't understand the point about Cormack. I saw him play but I am not old enough to remember him. I would disagree about Jet as do others. Physically he has limitations but he has overcome those limitations to become a professional footballer. Modern football places huge physical demands on players. Twenty years ago running 10k in a match was exceptional. 10K now is achieved by youth players in 70 minute games. 13k is the new exceptional. It is here the demands do highlight a obvious divergency in humans - recovery. Recovery can be improved by threshold training but there are players and many humans who post explosive movement take more (a lot) time to regain their athletic movement. No amount of being up for it will fully close that gap, nature has decided for us = some will keep going, some will suffer from lactate build up faster, and others will be blowing out of their arses. Freestylers could be looked upon as having this God given talent. A John Farnworth has a skill level that looks superhuman even v a Neymar. He trained it in. Skills are not God given. Skill can only be created by an individuals practice. The more you practice the more skill is created and the more deliberate and intense the training the more skill is internalised. Yes there are plenty of players who are not particularly highly technical, their athleticism and you see this at every level gets them through ... It says a lot about how athleticism is valued in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 @Cowshedin respect of Matt Le Tiss, Alan Ball’s father observed him and told his son - he’s the only player I’ve seen that knows how to create space by standing still. It wasn’t meant in a derogatory way at all, but an observation that whilst everyone else was running around he had time to stand still and find space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, Cowshed said: It says a lot about how athleticism is valued in football. I disagree with just about every point you make, but that's immaterial (though any reading this who suffer from any demyelinating condition will know whilst exercise may forestall the demyelinating process it's the consumption of a very high fat diet and the metabolisation of such fats (a by product of exercise activity) that improves myelin production useful for regeneration of nerves but not creation of additional connections - I'm pretty confident football nutritionists prescribe pretty much the opposite of that.) You appear to place great emphasis on the ability for players to run around, with much endurance, as though that's pre-requisite to footballing success. Whilst for many that's the case, given they lack innate talent, there are exceptions (I'd suggest JET was one such individual,) for whom natural ability precludes them from having to be 'athletic'. There's the well worn Clough anecdote (I think it was when he signed McGovern) in which exasperated by his new charge's constant running with the ball he called him out in front of the squad. Pairing him with a teammate half the field away he challenged him to get the ball to him quicker than he. McGovern starts dribbling and thinks it odd Clough doesn't follow. Just before McGovern arrives Clough's ball pings to the teammate's feet. The fact one can shift the ball around the park quicker and more economically than through effort - the penny dropped and McGovern, though after a 'busy' player, became one of the best passers in the game. Most important footballing organ?The brain and all neural connections are established before any kid signs their first pro form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 I think the difference when we had JET was that he was so well liked by the other players that they were prepared to put in a bit extra to cover for his `shortcomings` for want of a better word. The complete opposite to what happened when Tomlin decided to just stroll around all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey54 Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 On 21/01/2021 at 20:20, B1ackbird said: I think I've watched his goal v the Gas more than Smiths v Man U.. Rovers shock and awe, beautiful! That goal. Sweeeeet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Wasn't Hoddle dropped from England because he didn't run around enough. I thought Le Tissier was a genius on the ball but off the ball he put so little effort in to win the ball back. He never looked very fit for a top flight footballer. But players could get away with it in those days. I saw him at The Dell against Villa, he had a few moments of absolute genius but strolled around and Villa won 4-1 as they mainly dominated the game, as Southampton midfield had too much to do with one of their midfielders walking around most of the game! Most managers like runners nowadays. The game has certainly moved on a lot from the 90s. Alan Brazil often talks about a conversation he had with Sir Bobby Robson about Hoddle, who basically said “the games changed, you need to be able to run”. Probably got it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: @Cowshedin respect of Matt Le Tiss, Alan Ball’s father observed him and told his son - he’s the only player I’ve seen that knows how to create space by standing still. It wasn’t meant in a derogatory way at all, but an observation that whilst everyone else was running around he had time to stand still and find space. I thought that Ibrahimovic was similar in that game at Ashton Gate. He took up that area around the semi circle at the top of the penalty area, and hardly left it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltshoveller Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: I thought that Ibrahimovic was similar in that game at Ashton Gate. He took up that area around the semi circle at the top of the penalty area, and hardly left it. I take it your not comparing Zaltan with Jet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said: I take it your not comparing Zaltan with Jet Zlatan doesn't compare himself with anyone does he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: Zlatan doesn't compare himself with anyone does he? He will only be surpassed by the Zlatan that is yet to come......................... To paraphrase the Hitchhikers guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Army 75 Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 Would love him the city side now . Just to see him take someone on and have a shot . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 1 hour ago, JonDolman said: Most managers like runners nowadays. The game has certainly moved on a lot from the 90s. And the game is so much more boring for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted January 23, 2021 Report Share Posted January 23, 2021 2 hours ago, BTRFTG said: I disagree with just about every point you make, but that's immaterial (though any reading this who suffer from any demyelinating condition will know whilst exercise may forestall the demyelinating process it's the consumption of a very high fat diet and the metabolisation of such fats (a by product of exercise activity) that improves myelin production useful for regeneration of nerves but not creation of additional connections - I'm pretty confident football nutritionists prescribe pretty much the opposite of that.) You appear to place great emphasis on the ability for players to run around, with much endurance, as though that's pre-requisite to footballing success. Whilst for many that's the case, given they lack innate talent, there are exceptions (I'd suggest JET was one such individual,) for whom natural ability precludes them from having to be 'athletic'. There's the well worn Clough anecdote (I think it was when he signed McGovern) in which exasperated by his new charge's constant running with the ball he called him out in front of the squad. Pairing him with a teammate half the field away he challenged him to get the ball to him quicker than he. McGovern starts dribbling and thinks it odd Clough doesn't follow. Just before McGovern arrives Clough's ball pings to the teammate's feet. The fact one can shift the ball around the park quicker and more economically than through effort - the penny dropped and McGovern, though after a 'busy' player, became one of the best passers in the game. Most important footballing organ? The brain and all neural connections are established before any kid signs their first pro form. You appear to be under a misapprehension. I place great emphasis on technical ability - More technical ability the more tactical flexibility and better the decision making etc. Talent is not innate to the few. We are all talented. The Brazilians as a nationality are not more innately talented than any other nation to acquire football skills. What is different is how the Brazilian's train. There is no skill gene. The most important football organ? Nowhere have I said any different. It is important to understand the how's e.g. intellectual brain v primitive. In regard to your last line the brain can still be developed. Neuroplasticity occurs during adulthood. The structure of a brain can be altered by training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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