BTRFTG Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 It's been done to death over the years and is one of football's worst kept secrets but the problem with Steve Cotterill is Steve Cotterill. To be blunt, he's not much liked by those within the game and as was apparent come the end with us his outright arrogance, refusal to accept he is wrong when he is wrong, plus a lack of self-awareness is the reason he spends longer out the game than his record might have one expect. In our case his immovable insistence that we could and should play 3 at the back when even the blindest Pew could see we were being ripped to shreds was his undoing. Despite all evidence, awful results and City standing on the trap-door of relegation, when exiting it was still everybody else that was wrong and he right. That's not self-confidence, that's damaging, delusional arrogance. Cotts gave us the most memorable season in decades, for which he's rightly remembered and we should keep it that way. Getting reacquainted would be a retrograde step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 hours ago, JonDolman said: I think he had to go. We were so ridiculously open to conceding all season and were heading back to league one. Agree. Just checked which game it was that flagged it up for me. Leeds home was the game and looking at the fixture list that was 4 games and 2nd home game. I'm no football genius, but even though we came out with a 2-2 we were so open it was untrue and if I could see problems an experienced coach should have. I remember several Calvary charges towards our goal, Flint was the only player staying back and when we inevitably lost the ball, there were what seemed 20 players charging at Flint and Frankie. They turn over the ball and exploit the space behind the WB's, which was made easier as the other RCB wanted to play attacking MF. It was one of the reasons I wasn't fussed when Ayling left, turns out he can be more disciplined, who knew. Could Cotts improve us now though? I have no doubt he could. His last spell was spoiled by many things that all came to a head, Cotterill's biography is one I'm really looking forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 11 hours ago, LondonBristolian said: Shrewsbury are currently fifth in the league one form table, based on six games. It is impressive from where they were but I am not sure if it is form that wins you the league by a canter. Our promotion season under Cotts was the best football I can remember seeing us play but, once we were up, he lobbed his toys out the pram over the budget and let his sense of grievance over the transfer dealing dominate everything from press conferences to team selection. He was a very very good manager and he was hard done by that summer But, whilst I could have forgiven him for walking away or I could have respected him struggling to do his best in tough circumstances, I struggle to respect or forgive the fact he risked getting the team relegated because his ego was out of joint. I’ll always love him for the football we played that promotion season. But he left at least three months after it was clearly time for him to move on and I don’t want him back after how toxic it all became. Of course I would like a manager who can get more out of the team than we are at the moment but I would rather we moved on to someone new entirely rather than continually resurrecting ghosts of previous managerial regimes. Shrews Under Cotts: P12, W7, D3, L2. 2ppg average. 46 game season is 92 points. That, unless you encounter a Cotts 14/15 side, wins you the league at a canter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said: They , and the thinking and decisions are, IMHO very relevant to how we are looking and shaping right now And extremely relevant if lessons arn’t learnt , and the quality of decisions and appointments and thinking remains the same SC was on a suicide mission with SL come the end and there was only ever going to be one outcome ( @LondonBristolian and @Davefevs have both made very sensible posts about this IMHO) The key was , as it always is IMHO , to build on that , But remember , and many overlook, it wasn’t just the Head Coach that changed - Our recruitment vision , recruitment ‘management’ and recruitment personnel changed at that point too I don’t disagree with any of this, that’s basically what I said. The issue I have is the rose-tinted view that SC ‘would’ have done amazing things at BCFC in the championship had it not been ruined by SL and the opportunity to bash LJ at any chance. Bored of it personally. You’ve touched on the more important point in all of this and that’s the pivot all our recent managers have revolved around....Mark Ashton. For me, if we want to move forwards as a club, this is where our focus needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Shrews Under Cotts: P12, W7, D3, L2. 2ppg average. 46 game season is 92 points. That, unless you encounter a Cotts 14/15 side, wins you the league at a canter! What were Holden’s stats for the first 12 games for us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 54 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Cotts problem was he got let down that summer and he stupidly sulked. But I understand why. He’d been undermined. Had the foundations of a cracking side, and with his attention to detail, tactical knowledge (Alby said he was far more tactical than LJ, so I’ll take his word for it) and eye for a player, he should’ve swallowed a bit of pride and rode it out....and reaped the development of the young players at the next level up. It was right he went, but it’s tough to keep your heart in something when the owner hasn’t backed you isn’t it. Cotts wouldn't have lasted long with Ashton interfering though? Even if he hadn't sulked… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, Alessandro said: An era of missed opportunities, I agree with. Mistakes made, 100%. Same mistakes made, 100%. My personal opinion is that all of this didn't necessarily hinge on SC or LJ in the way some continue to go on about. The SC argument hinges on rumours, yes rumours (we've done it over and over) of a 2 missed quality signings - people talk of wasting this amazing league one squad with unbelievable spirit - well it was in the relegation zone at that point. Had SC gone on to manage say Brentford, Preston or Millwall and taken them up since, then hell yeah, you've got more power to your argument about what could he have done here. But in the last five years or so, it's been, what, 4 months managing basket case Brum and then back down to league one for 3 months.... Do I think mistakes were made, 100% - did SC have a fair crack of the whip? Well maybe some things went against him, but as I say, we were in the relegation zone, sticking with a failing 3-5-2 and he was increasingly 'losing the plot'. It's all speculation. Personally I prefer to discuss what is happening now and reflecting on what's not worked in the past in order to try and understand how we can improve - rather than forever speculating/fantasying about what could have been and bashing previous managers at any/every opportunity. You can say that, but personally speaking the sacking of Cotterill, the absurd installation of SL's pet project, LJ, and now his out of his depth sidekick DH, has had a really damaging effect on my relationship with the club and also my respect for the owner. Hard to just forget it and move on - failing to build on that momentum and fantastic team spirit after promotion by backing SC to the hilt was a kick in the teeth not only to Cotterill himself but to thousands of fans who'd waited decades for such a moment, and were desperate for the club to grasp it. Cotterill told me at Millennium Square he genuinely wanted to go for a double promotion and the impression was players were already lined up. I can't forgive those who didn't share his ambition but instead pulled the rug from under his feet. That was our moment, that a our big opportunity - I don't see it happening at all now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Alessandro said: What were Holden’s stats for the first 12 games for us.... No idea... but I suspect that they are sort of rendered slightly less relevant by the most recent 12 and the style of play across his whole time in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said: You can say that, but personally speaking the sacking of Cotterill, the absurd installation of SL's pet project, LJ, and now his out of his depth sidekick DH, has had a really damaging effect on my relationship with the club and also my respect for the owner. Hard to just forget it and move on - failing to build on that momentum and fantastic team spirit after promotion by backing SC to the hilt was a kick in the teeth not only to Cotterill himself but to thousands of fans who'd waited decades for such a moment, and were desperate for the club to grasp it. Cotterill told me at Millennium Square he genuinely wanted to go for a double promotion and the impression was players were already lined up. I can't forgive those who didn't share his ambition but instead pulled the rug from under his feet. That was our moment, that a our big opportunity - I don't see it happening at all now. Absolutely fair enough and I respect that view - as I say, clearly mistakes were made, and continue to be. Just not sure for all the hype of the league one season and SC's bravado...I don't sit here thinking, god, that was our best chance and we f****d it right up. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: No idea... but I suspect that they are sort of rendered slightly less relevant by the most recent 12 and the style of play across his whole time in charge. I know I know, just poking you as you used 12 games in reference to SC and I was saying if you looked at DH's first 12 games....well the picture would be different now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Alessandro said: Absolutely fair enough and I respect that view - as I say, clearly mistakes were made, and continue to be. Just not sure for all the hype of the league one season and SC's bravado...I don't sit here thinking, god, that was our best chance and we f****d it right up. IMO. You have summed up exactly how I sit here thinking about City! However, hope springs eternal and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alessandro said: I know I know, just poking you as you used 12 games in reference to SC and I was saying if you looked at DH's first 12 games....well the picture would be different now. I just used Cotts’ total record at Shrews since he started! You bugger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: I just used Cotts’ total record at Shrews since he started! You bugger! I know we’ve discussed similar before and I understand your reasoning for your views.. whilst I think they go a bit far I can empathise with it. I have to ask though, have you ever met LJ before? I only ask because your posts about him read almost as if you have a genuine and personal dislike of the man. I find it hard to believe that someone could feel so strongly without actually having met him and having a bad personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcnick Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Brilliant league 1 manager and I loved his time with us and he's a really likeable and admirable character. But can he work in the Championship with the players who get high wages and have equally sizeable egos? It's a pity he wasn't backed as well as Lee so we could have found out. The one disappointing thing with Cotts was that the Club invested a fortune in the academy with some emerging talent, and instead of encouraging them by putting one or two on the bench, he went with a small number of substitutes. I guess that was to make the point he wasn't being backed but it was a bit churlish in my view. That wasn't in the interests of the team, Club harmony or young player development. My main sentiment though is that he is a great guy and I hope he makes a quick and full recovery after his bout of Covid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 hours ago, Superjack said: Tell the person I quoted. You said until December, the poster had quoted 2017 2018 for the best football he had seen, which was when Lee Johnson was in charge not Steve Cotterill who he was mistakenly referring to. I think he and you had been referring to Dec 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, Alessandro said: Absolutely fair enough and I respect that view - as I say, clearly mistakes were made, and continue to be. Just not sure for all the hype of the league one season and SC's bravado...I don't sit here thinking, god, that was our best chance and we f****d it right up. IMO. I don't sit here thinking that either - but I do hope Lansdown is humble enough to at times. We'll be in that position again at some point, and he needs to take advantage of it when he does... momentum is not easy to build in football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, Phileas Fogg said: I know we’ve discussed similar before and I understand your reasoning for your views.. whilst I think they go a bit far I can empathise with it. I have to ask though, have you ever met LJ before? I only ask because your posts about him read almost as if you have a genuine and personal dislike of the man. I find it hard to believe that someone could feel so strongly without actually having met him and having a bad personal experience. I know it’s irrational mate. But it’s all down to the very unlevel playing field, plus the misplaced arrogance. Plus a little bit of me resenting him having so much and delivering so little. I’m sure he’s a very nice guy in person, and you’ll never hear me indulge in the ‘poisonous dwarf’ or ‘midget out’ (or even little Lee) jibes, but I just have no tolerance for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlastonburyRed Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 45 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: It's been done to death over the years and is one of football's worst kept secrets but the problem with Steve Cotterill is Steve Cotterill. To be blunt, he's not much liked by those within the game and as was apparent come the end with us his outright arrogance, refusal to accept he is wrong when he is wrong, plus a lack of self-awareness is the reason he spends longer out the game than his record might have one expect. In our case his immovable insistence that we could and should play 3 at the back when even the blindest Pew could see we were being ripped to shreds was his undoing. Despite all evidence, awful results and City standing on the trap-door of relegation, when exiting it was still everybody else that was wrong and he right. That's not self-confidence, that's damaging, delusional arrogance. Cotts gave us the most memorable season in decades, for which he's rightly remembered and we should keep it that way. Getting reacquainted would be a retrograde step. Nail on head, spent some time with a senior member of the City hierarchy around the time of SC's tenure. He said that SC was a 'weird bloke' and that they just let him get on with it and don't interact too much. Was quite taken aback by the comment at the time, but it seems it's a widely held view in the football industry, rightly or wrongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: I know it’s irrational mate. But it’s all down to the very unlevel playing field, plus the misplaced arrogance. Plus a little bit of me resenting him having so much and delivering so little. I’m sure he’s a very nice guy in person, and you’ll never hear me indulge in the ‘poisonous dwarf’ or ‘midget out’ (or even little Lee) jibes, but I just have no tolerance for him. That’s true. I’ve never seen you say that sort of thing. I know posting on the forum allows people a little hyperbole and drama too. I respect your views on it though re: Cotterill being shafted that summer. Whilst no definitive proof, I believe it to be true also. Such a shame we never got to see how that squad, with a couple of upgrades, would get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said: Did he? Didn’t know that, very interesting. First I heard he'd applied from a mate, then I bumped into SC a few days' after near the Floating Harbour in the summer and I asked him directly about it. He said he'd applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 49 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: It's been done to death over the years and is one of football's worst kept secrets but the problem with Steve Cotterill is Steve Cotterill. To be blunt, he's not much liked by those within the game So what ffs?? His players most definitely liked him - pleased to sign for him, spoken well of him since, & best squad spirit since '76. Most City fans certainly liked him. If you mean the City board, they should have recognised what was good good for them, there's absolutely no need for them to like him ffs. As for others in the game apparently not liking him - pure conjecture that is somehow unique to Cotterill - perhaps they just don't like single minded Winners, eh? No doubt Lee Johnson and Dean Holden are very well liked within the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said: pure conjecture Save it isn't. With Cotts it isn't disguised as it is in the case of some 'untouchable' managers whose ex-players laud them to the rafters, until that is the mics and cameras go silent and the truth emerges..... Whatever one thinks of Cotts managerial abilities the fact he's not a popular figure in the game is well documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Save it isn't. With Cotts it isn't disguised as it is in the case of some 'untouchable' managers whose ex-players laud them to the rafters, until that is the mics and cameras go silent and the truth emerges..... Whatever one thinks of Cotts managerial abilities the fact he's not a popular figure in the game is well documented. Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said: Save it isn't. With Cotts it isn't disguised as it is in the case of some 'untouchable' managers whose ex-players laud them to the rafters, until that is the mics and cameras go silent and the truth emerges..... Whatever one thinks of Cotts managerial abilities the fact he's not a popular figure in the game is well documented. I sort of like evidence sometimes, would you care to elaborate? Wilbs couldn’t be any clearer on Cotts on the interviews he’s done, and the fact that he’s chosen to go and work under him (plus Burt too) suggests he’s not quite as unpopular as you’d care to make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, NickJ said: Where? I am both the greatest footballer and cricket player the world has ever seen, it’s well documented. (oooh, this is easy, give it a try.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: I sort of like evidence sometimes, would you care to elaborate? Wilbs couldn’t be any clearer on Cotts on the interviews he’s done, and the fact that he’s chosen to go and work under him (plus Burt too) suggests he’s not quite as unpopular as you’d care to make out. He’s definitely highly thought of amongst several players from the double winning side. I found it interesting he and Holden had chatted the other week too. Wonder if it was about a future loan? The nature of the job means you’ll rub people up the wrong way; just how it is. I think if I were to go for a pint with any City manager I’d be most interested to meet either SC or GJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordy62 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said: He’s definitely highly thought of amongst several players from the double winning side. I found it interesting he and Holden had chatted the other week too. Wonder if it was about a future loan? The nature of the job means you’ll rub people up the wrong way; just how it is. I think if I were to go for a pint with any City manager I’d be most interested to meet either SC or GJ. And despite their comparative wealth to mine, I’d buy them both a pint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Fordy62 said: And despite their comparative wealth to mine, I’d buy them both a pint. One thing I really liked with Cotterill was his instinct. The story about scouting Wilbraham and courting his signing because of gym work and his dedication and then the way he clearly ‘just knew’ Kodjia would be a success. Obviously that could backfire, but those are two big calls he got right based on little more than footballing instinct. He clearly can spot a player and know how effective a seasoned pro like Wilbraham can be in a young dressing room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said: Wilbs couldn’t be any clearer on Cotts on the interviews he’s done, and the fact that he’s chosen to go and work under him (plus Burt too) suggests he’s not quite as unpopular as you’d care to make out. Exactly. Very highly thought of by most if not all of the players while he was here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 18 minutes ago, NickJ said: Exactly. Very highly thought of by most if not all of the players while he was here. Flinty was a big fan, met with him occasionally after SC left. Photo evidence of them in Costa Coffee together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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