wayne allisons tongues Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: If there was a chance we fail FFP I have to offer some level of defence for the club. If I understand it correctly, it's £20k per week combined wage for the two and £6.5m as a combined fee- 3 year, 4 year deals? £1.6-2.2m roughly in amortisation a year- maybe a bit more or less but in that ballpark. £1m wages. Minus- £1.78m for Baker. Have we any ideas for loan fees for those 3. Some decent players amongst those loanees- could Cotts have got more out of them. The squad size would have been...well I'll have a look. Fielding, O'Leary- O'Donnell? Ayling, Williams, Flint, Maguire Who out of Matthews, Pearce, Baker, Golbourne do we sign? Smith, Wagstaff, Pack, Bryan, Freeman, Reid Agard, Wilbraham, Kodjia, Gray, Burns Who out of Tomlin, Garita, Odemwingie do we sign? Didn't El Abd and Osborne- and even Burns despite the winner v Middlesbrough- leave through the season. According to your calculation we could of got Gray and Maguire for £2m on the books and we paid £1.78m for Baker. Why didn’t the club sign the 2 of them? £2m was there to spend. If you add Kodja we spent more on a loan and a signing on the books than signing the 2 originally. Cash was there. All the ones highlighted apart from Garita and Baker were signed after SC left. So why not give him the cash instead of splurging it after he had left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said: According to your calculation we could of got Gray and Maguire for £2m on the books and we paid £1.78m for Baker. Why didn’t the club sign the 2 of them? £2m was there to spend. If you add Kodja we spent more on a loan and a signing on the books than signing the 2 originally. Cash was there. All the ones highlighted apart from Garita and Baker were signed after SC left. So why not give him the cash instead of splurging it after he had left. £2.5-3m depending on the contract length. Am trying to factor in wages and amortisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuber Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: If there was a chance we fail FFP I have to offer some level of defence for the club. Dave did figures above though which suggest otherwise. Some decent players amongst those loanees- could Cotts have got more out of them. The squad size would have been...well I'll have a look. Fielding, O'Leary- O'Donnell? Ayling, Williams, Flint, Maguire Who out of Matthews, Pearce, Baker, Golbourne do we sign? Smith, Wagstaff, Pack, Bryan, Freeman, Reid Agard, Wilbraham, Kodjia, Gray, Burns Who out of Tomlin, Garita, Odemwingie do we sign? Didn't El Abd and Osborne- and even Burns despite the winner v Middlesbrough- leave through the season. Were we not allowed partial exemption in regards to the stadium rebuild iirc? When was the Dolman/SS work completed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fuber said: Were we not allowed partial exemption in regards to the stadium rebuild iirc? When was the Dolman/SS work completed? That's a good question tbh, never really considered it but maybe? Don't recall it being mentioned but that would have changed the equation significantly. Seem to recall it was a maximum capacity of 15-16k in 2015/16, so...Atyeo home/away split, fullish Dolman, fullish South Stand? Albeit all the corporate hospitality shoehorned into the Heineken as work still ongoing on the Lansdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Superjack said: Until December. Wasn't that under Lee Johnson? thought we were discussing Steve Cotterill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuber Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: That's a good question tbh, never really considered it but maybe? Don't recall it being mentioned but that would have changed the equation significantly. Seem to recall it was a maximum capacity of 15-16k in 2015/16, so...Atyeo home/away split, fullish Dolman, fullish South Stand? Albeit all the corporate hospitality shoehorned into the Heineken as work still ongoing on the Lansdown. Would be interesting to compare any statements accounts with other clubs who have had renovation work recently. Not sure Brentford is comparable, Fulham, maybe? But cannot recall any FFP figures or EFL allowances for those two, but you'd assume there's some sort of framework in place. Feel like I'm forgetting a club who had stadium work around the same period however. Wolves possibly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Putting the finances aside, think he would or could do quite well with this current squad- though injuries a factor. Bentley Vyner Kalas Mawson Hunt Williams Nagy DaSilva Weimann Paterson Martin Or the above but with Wells. Or the above but Baker for Vyner, Kalas to the right, Mawson centre, Baker left. Hunt right, DaSilva left-William and then two of Walsh, Nagy, Massengo, Lansbury, DaSilva- with I dunno- Wells and Weimann for some games? Wells and Martin of course- deep squad for sure. Many good versions with back 3 and wingbacks as the base! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superjack Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 13 minutes ago, pillred said: Wasn't that under Lee Johnson? thought we were discussing Steve Cotterill. Tell the person I quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 hours ago, Fordy62 said: There. I said it. I know it’ll never happen owing to the stubbornness of Lansdown (and probably Cotts too), but my word, we could do a lot, lot worse. Shrewsbury aren’t in promotion form, they’re in the form that wins you the league by a canter. It’s alright though... we go again... You appear worryingly obsessed with both Cotterill and LJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Interesting thread. Of course Cotts would be doing better with this squad. Proven manager with a wealth of experience at this and other levels. Not 'a novice'...but then of course also not a Lansdown 'project.' The more interesting counter-factual is what would have happened if he'd been supported by Lansdown in the summer after promotion - properly supported in a 'we're in this together let's really go for it' way. All the building blocks were there. A few more pieces to add to the jigsaw. The biggest wasted opportunity of my time following the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Cotts applied for Holden's job back in the summer, obviously he got nowhere after burning his bridges with SL. Watching his demise was sad. He was responsible for the best season in my 29 years following the club, we had recruitment pretty much spot on, and the rug was pulled from under his feet the summer after our double-winning season. I respect him standing up to SL to make his point about those deals collapsing, but he'd have made his point so much more effectively if he'd have resigned. The fact SL loosened the purse strings for LJ to squander was a total joke, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said: You appear worryingly obsessed with both Cotterill and LJ. Am I the only one slightly bored of the ex-manager obsessions? There’s another thread today from those slightly obsessed with LJ?! Both with some cracking selective memories and re-writing of history... As you say...let it go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: If there was a chance we fail FFP I have to offer some level of defence for the club. Dave did figures above though which suggest otherwise. Some decent players amongst those loanees- could Cotts have got more out of them. The squad size would have been...well I'll have a look. Fielding, O'Leary- O'Donnell? Ayling, Williams, Flint, Maguire Who out of Matthews, Pearce, Baker, Golbourne do we sign? Smith, Wagstaff, Pack, Bryan, Freeman, Reid Agard, Wilbraham, Kodjia, Gray, Burns Who out of Tomlin, Garita, Odemwingie do we sign? Didn't El Abd and Osborne- and even Burns despite the winner v Middlesbrough- leave through the season. 7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Putting the finances aside, think he would or could do quite well with this current squad- though injuries a factor. Bentley Vyner Kalas Mawson Hunt Williams Nagy DaSilva Weimann Paterson Martin Or the above but with Wells. Or the above but Baker for Vyner, Kalas to the right, Mawson centre, Baker left. Hunt right, DaSilva left-William and then two of Walsh, Nagy, Massengo, Lansbury, DaSilva- with I dunno- Wells and Weimann for some games? Wells and Martin of course- deep squad for sure. Many good versions with back 3 and wingbacks as the base! Fielding Bennett | Ayling | Flint | Maguire | Bryan Smith | Pack | Freeman Kodjia | Gray I do wonder had we signed Maguire whether Cotts may have gone back 4, but he was very wary of Flint in a 4. Whatever the result it would’ve been a good game for the neutral and the non-neutral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Alessandro said: Am I the only one slightly bored of the ex-manager obsessions? There’s another thread today from those slightly obsessed with LJ?! Both with some cracking selective memories and re-writing of history... As you say...let it go! I think many regard the Cotterrill League One Smash > The four and a half years of SLs personal project and sponsorship of LJ > Dean Holdens appointment after what he said on National Radio.... As a significant period And for me personally , and I’ve said before The era of missed opportunity ( An opportunity we rarely have had over my decades) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Exile Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Alessandro said: Am I the only one slightly bored of the ex-manager obsessions? There’s another thread today from those slightly obsessed with LJ?! Both with some cracking selective memories and re-writing of history... As you say...let it go! To which I would merely respond: 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to endlessly repeat it'... ...repeating past mistakes seems to be the hallmark of the ever more frustrating Lansdown era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 10 hours ago, Robbored said: A minor detail............that season with Bell, Tinnion, Murray, Thorpe, Peacock et el was the most attractive football I’ve seen at AG in decades. Every manager since then has served up boring, dreary and paint drying stuff and that doesn’t look as if it’s going change under Deano. the cup run with LJ was far from boring, dreary and paint drying. That Man Utd game is the best game I've seen us play, and the two Man City games come very close seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 It’s an interesting question. He’s excellent when he gets buy in from players. He recruited excellently in summer 2014 for a specific system (but not at the expense of flexibility as Holden has). It was probably right that he went, however the club couldn’t wait to get rid of him and we all know what happened in summer 15’.. It’s probably unfair based on that - but I have a nagging doubt about whether he’s flexible enough to manage a team challenging for promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 53 minutes ago, tin said: Cotts applied for Holden's job back in the summer, obviously he got nowhere after burning his bridges with SL. Did he? Didn’t know that, very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 It was the right time to sack SC It was late sacking LJ It can't be soon enough to sack DH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, MarcusX said: the cup run with LJ was far from boring, dreary and paint drying. That Man Utd game is the best game I've seen us play, and the two Man City games come very close seconds Can’t argue with that but cup matches have a completely different ambiance. It’s the regular league matches that were boring, dreary and like watching paint dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Cotts didn't do much when we got promoted into this league, relegation zone wasn't it. Cotts didn't do much when he was at Brum either. So in answer to the OP I'm going to say 'not much'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Just now, Sturny said: It was the right time to sack SC It was late sacking LJ It can't be soon enough to sack DH Agreed. I would’ve loved to have seen how Cotterill would’ve got on if the rumours about summer 15 and his signings was true though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said: It’s an interesting question. He’s excellent when he gets buy in from players. He recruited excellently in summer 2014 for a specific system (but not at the expense of flexibility as Holden has). It was probably right that he went, however the club couldn’t wait to get rid of him and we all know what happened in summer 15’.. It’s probably unfair based on that - but I have a nagging doubt about whether he’s flexible enough to manage a team challenging for promotion. Cotts problem was he got let down that summer and he stupidly sulked. But I understand why. He’d been undermined. Had the foundations of a cracking side, and with his attention to detail, tactical knowledge (Alby said he was far more tactical than LJ, so I’ll take his word for it) and eye for a player, he should’ve swallowed a bit of pride and rode it out....and reaped the development of the young players at the next level up. It was right he went, but it’s tough to keep your heart in something when the owner hasn’t backed you isn’t it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Robbored said: Can’t argue with that but cup matches have a completely different ambiance. It’s the regular league matches that were boring, dreary and like watching paint dry. Those league matches around that time were brilliant. From about September to January we were on fire and playing outstanding football, even up until the mentioned Sunderland game. We smashed them in that first half, but the confidence we lost after throwing away the lead at Wolves showed up - and it showed up several times after, I seem to recall a run of games where we lost leads. After that season it went downhill. We went from high intensity almost Liverpool style press, to counter attacking and worry about the opposition mentality. But, up til that point, and factoring the level of football we were playing at, it's the best football I've ever seen from City in my 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Cotts problem was he got let down that summer and he stupidly sulked. But I understand why. He’d been undermined. Had the foundations of a cracking side, and with his attention to detail, tactical knowledge (Alby said he was far more tactical than LJ, so I’ll take his word for it) and eye for a player, he should’ve swallowed a bit of pride and rode it out....and reaped the development of the young players at the next level up. It was right he went, but it’s tough to keep your heart in something when the owner hasn’t backed you isn’t it. I think the reason for my doubt is the few times in that L1 season we came unstuck. I remember a game against Colchester that we lost (which we really should’ve won) but they seemed to work us out in that game. That didn’t happen often as we were a great side, but it felt like when teams worked out our 532 we struggled and didn’t often have a plan B. What we did do that season, unlike this one, was actively and effectively recruit for the system - but didn’t lose our flexibility by keeping only 1 natural wide player! Agreed on the sulking. It was clear from the Yeovil (I think) friendly interview that season. However, you could tell he was really excited by Kodjia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: I think the reason for my doubt is the few times in that L1 season we came unstuck. I remember a game against Colchester that we lost (which we really should’ve won) but they seemed to work us out in that game. That didn’t happen often as we were a great side, but it felt like when teams worked out our 532 we struggled and didn’t often have a plan B. What we did do that season, unlike this one, was actively and effectively recruit for the system - but didn’t lose our flexibility by keeping only 1 natural wide player! Agreed on the sulking. It was clear from the Yeovil (I think) friendly interview that season. However, you could tell he was really excited by Kodjia. Colchester had some decent players: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Colchester had some decent players: That’s true actually, that’s a decent side and many are playing at a better level now. Didn’t know that. I remember that game they somehow just nullified and frustrated us. I think I remember it strongly because that didn’t happen often that season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 I can easily imagine what I'd do with most of this squad - hold on, the woke Thought Police are banging at my door..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 27 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said: I think many regard the Cotterrill League One Smash > The four and a half years of SLs personal project and sponsorship of LJ > Dean Holdens appointment after what he said on National Radio.... As a significant period And for me personally , and I’ve said before The era of missed opportunity ( An opportunity we rarely have had over my decades) 25 minutes ago, Red Exile said: To which I would merely respond: 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to endlessly repeat it'... ...repeating past mistakes seems to be the hallmark of the ever more frustrating Lansdown era. An era of missed opportunities, I agree with. Mistakes made, 100%. Same mistakes made, 100%. My personal opinion is that all of this didn't necessarily hinge on SC or LJ in the way some continue to go on about. The SC argument hinges on rumours, yes rumours (we've done it over and over) of a 2 missed quality signings - people talk of wasting this amazing league one squad with unbelievable spirit - well it was in the relegation zone at that point. Had SC gone on to manage say Brentford, Preston or Millwall and taken them up since, then hell yeah, you've got more power to your argument about what could he have done here. But in the last five years or so, it's been, what, 4 months managing basket case Brum and then back down to league one for 3 months.... Do I think mistakes were made, 100% - did SC have a fair crack of the whip? Well maybe some things went against him, but as I say, we were in the relegation zone, sticking with a failing 3-5-2 and he was increasingly 'losing the plot'. It's all speculation. Personally I prefer to discuss what is happening now and reflecting on what's not worked in the past in order to try and understand how we can improve - rather than forever speculating/fantasying about what could have been and bashing previous managers at any/every opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, Alessandro said: An era of missed opportunities, I agree with. Mistakes made, 100%. Same mistakes made, 100%. My personal opinion is that all of this didn't necessarily hinge on SC or LJ in the way some continue to go on about. The SC argument hinges on rumours, yes rumours (we've done it over and over) of a 2 missed quality signings - people talk of wasting this amazing league one squad with unbelievable spirit - well it was in the relegation zone at that point. Had SC gone on to manage say Brentford, Preston or Millwall and taken them up since, then hell yeah, you've got more power to your argument about what could he have done here. But in the last five years or so, it's been, what, 4 months managing basket case Brum and then back down to league one for 3 months.... Do I think mistakes were made, 100% - did SC have a fair crack of the whip? Well maybe some things went against him, but as I say, we were in the relegation zone, sticking with a failing 3-5-2 and he was increasingly 'losing the plot'. It's all speculation. Personally I prefer to discuss what is happening now and reflecting on what's not worked in the past in order to try and understand how we can improve - rather than forever speculating/fantasying about what could have been and bashing previous managers at any/every opportunity. They , and the thinking and decisions are, IMHO very relevant to how we are looking and shaping right now And extremely relevant if lessons arn’t learnt , and the quality of decisions and appointments and thinking remains the same SC was on a suicide mission with SL come the end and there was only ever going to be one outcome ( @LondonBristolian and @Davefevs have both made very sensible posts about this IMHO) The key was , as it always is IMHO , to build on that , But remember , and many overlook, it wasn’t just the Head Coach that changed - Our recruitment vision , recruitment ‘management’ and recruitment personnel changed at that point too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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