LJ didn't get credit

[Yoyo2345]

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

[pl00peh91]

I think we will only really be able to assess how well LJ did during his tenure in five years’ time once the dust has settled 

[dREDful]

We are only about 6 points worse off without him. 

The line ups, tactics, efforts on goal practically everything is still here from his reign. 

**** him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rogerf]

He got more credit than he deserved, he was playing the same dreadful football that Holden is.

[BrizzleRed]

Seriously I give up.  

Sadly, I think your going to get the club that posts like this deserve

[Lew-T]

Oh please, he and Ashton started this mess.

[Superjack]

The problem at the club is Ashton, and has been since his arrival. But Johnson's tactics and team selection were the most awful and negative I have seen in my lifetime. Holden is the second manager in a row that should never have been appointed.

[Lrrr]

We were LJ's learning curve where he'll end up being a better coach for it but didn't help us towards the end. An example being Sunderland were 3-0 up today at half time, Sunderland fans calling for him to give youngsters a go, well he did that here and we drew 3-3 with Sunderland, today he doesn't make a sub until 60 mins, two around 75th minute and one in last 10 and they win 4-1. Learnt from his mistake with us to make sure of the win.

[bearded_red]

Jesus wept.

[Dullmoan Tone]

LJ would not be the answer now - his time had run it's course and he was incapable of getting consistent, entertaining performances.

There are so many answers needed but LJ is not one of them.

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

Don’t ignore the fact that he spent 4 1/2 years an 368 transfer windows with Ashton assembling this gutless shower of shite

He has a lot to answer for 

[RedRock]

He didn’t get the credit for laying the foundations of our terminal decline.

Thanks for assembling a squad, with zero identity, leadership and fight that would struggle to hold their own in the Downs League. Of particular note, being an ex-Midfielder legend, is the useless bunch of **** you left us with in that part of the pitch. 

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

No.

He left us with the carousel of crap that has every chance of getting us relegated.

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, rogerf said:

He got more credit than he deserved, he was playing the same dreadful football that Holden is.

this 100%!

[Simon79]

Just now, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

He did a good job within the remit he was given. Cannot deny things went stale come the end & can understand the sacking to a point, but wasn’t the decision I would of made. We improved our league position, improved our status, improved things behind the scenes. Unfortunately what I feared when he went is now coming home to roost! COYR 

4 minutes ago, dREDful said:

We are only about 6 points worse off without him. 

The line ups, tactics, efforts on goal practically everything is still here from his reign. 

**** him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With a stronger squad. COYR 

[2015]

He did an ok job, but we cannot compare what is happening now with Johnson as Holden should never have even got the job.

He was rightfully sacked, but not replaced with the right man.

The football we have played this season started from his way of playing

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Let's put it this was it's very probable he will get Sunderland promoted, and when they're up if we don't get rid of holden they will probably beat us.... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55959858

[REDOXO]

6 minutes ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

No!

He was part of the problem with his tightness with the team above him. 

[2015]

2 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Jesus wept.

Predictable isn't it. Knew the LJ lovers would be out in force. Delusional lot

[AshtonGreat]

Should have stuck with Cotterill and given him some money to spend

[Tomo]

5 years today, LJ had his 1st game as our manager against Ipswich!

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, RedRock said:

He didn’t get the credit for laying the foundations of our terminal decline.

Thanks for assembling a squad, with zero identity, leadership and fight that would struggle to hold their own in the Downs League. Of particular note, being an ex-Midfielder legend, is the useless bunch of **** you left us with in that part of the pitch. 

I’ve made this point a few times:

Mariappa

Brunt

Martin

Mawson

Sessegnon

Williams

Lansbury

Thats seven”first team” players that Johnson didn’t sign. I’d also bet my bollocks he’d have kept Korey Smith. It was time for LJ to go, but Holden had had opportunity and funds to get the squad he wanted. This is more on DH than it is on LJ when you see what he’s had opportunity to bring in.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

He did well for a long time...but it was time for freshen up come the end.

But what did we do...employ the bloke who was his assistant and part of the previous problem...and employ some dinosaurs to assist him. And expect to improve. 

It's idiotic to keep making the same mistakes... Once forgiven, twice you haven't learnt...three times...your a first class idiot. 

It really is laughable... especially as our owner isn't thick. But he is when deciding who to employ as manager.

Spent all that time courting and grooming LJ...which worked...then turned full circle on his ethos, and employed the side kick. Dumb.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

We were 12th when he went, and heading south. He - and Ashton - left us with shit like Wells, Afobe on the left wing, he left a developing mess, the mess we see now.

Steve saved him from finishing even lower. 

If top six is really the target then we are not good enough at every level:

The players aren't good enough 

The coaches are not good enough (including Johnson)

The CEO isn't good enough 

The recruitment isn't good enough 

Jon boy ain't good enough 

Steve ain't up to it, either.

[Bris Red]

9 minutes ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

I don’t get your point. LJ was very very lucky to last as long as he did - he should have gone WAY before he did last year.

[RedRock]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point a few times:

Mariappa

Brunt

Martin

Mawson

Sessegnon

Williams

Lansbury

Thats seven”first team” players that Johnson didn’t sign. I’d also bet my bollocks he’d have kept Korey Smith. It was time for LJ to go, but Holden had had opportunity and funds to get the squad he wanted. This is more on DH than it is on LJ when you see what he’s had opportunity to bring in.

Why did we need to sign that many players? Because he left us with a pile of ****. 

Lummydaze, he was such a genius, he couldn’t even be bothered to recall freebies such as Walsh or Morrell last January when it was patently obvious the likes of CoD and our other midfield stars were clearly out of their depth. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Why did we need to sign that many players? Because he left us with a pile of ****. 

Lummydaze, he was such a genius, he couldn’t even be bothered to recall freebies such as Walsh or Morrell last January when it was patently obvious the likes of CoD and our other midfield stars were clearly out of their depth. 

Mate.

If you’re taking over a mid table championship squad, that you know well, and are given opportunity to sign 7 first team players that’s manna from heaven. That should in itself lead to a top six finish. The fact is the squad he inherited were good enough to be better than where we are now (proven by consistent position), and he had opportunity to improve it. Putting the blame on LJ (again, right time for him to go) for this debacle misses the mark.

And that’s the same Joe Morrell who can’t get in Luton’s team, correct?

[Fordy62]

17 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Don’t ignore the fact that he spent 4 1/2 years an 368 transfer windows with Ashton assembling this gutless shower of shite

He has a lot to answer for 

£10 says this is a pseudonym poster. 

[BTRFTG]

9 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point a few times:

Mariappa

Brunt

Martin

Mawson

Sessegnon

Williams

Lansbury

Thats seven”first team” players that Johnson didn’t sign. I’d also bet my bollocks he’d have kept Korey Smith. It was time for LJ to go, but Holden had had opportunity and funds to get the squad he wanted. This is more on DH than it is on LJ when you see what he’s had opportunity to bring in.

And exactly how many games have those 7 played this year? How many minutes have they been on the park to influence matters? 

I'd also suggest given a few of these were signed within days of Holden being appointed either he's the fastest manager on the planet else (and far more likely in my opinion,) these were in Ashton's mythical pipeline when Holden was appointed. You'll recall, that list of players we continue to track in case they become available....

[harvey54]

As they say in Glasgow 'get tae'. 

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, BTRFTG said:

And exactly how many games have those 7 played this year? How many minutes have they been on the park to influence matters? 

I'd also suggest given a few of these were signed within days of Holden being appointed either he's the fastest manager on the planet else (and far more likely in my opinion,) these were in Ashton's mythical pipeline when Holden was appointed. You'll recall, that list of players we continue to track in case they become available....

I agree they were most likely on Ashtons list - but remember - the manager had the final say (yes, I agree that’s balls). But your point about Holdens time in charge is a maguffin. He wasn’t fresh into AG - he’d been caretaking for six weeks, and with a season to prepare its clear he would have been sounded out (if not signed off) on players.

I get that people “like” Holden and dislike LJ. But clearly, the former wanted this job and took it under whatever conditions. He got 7 players on top of a consistent mid table squad and is taking it lower. Whether people like him or not, he’s garbage.

(So is Ashton btw)

[Simon79]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I agree they were most likely on Ashtons list - but remember - the manager had the final say (yes, I agree that’s balls). But your point about Holdens time in charge is a maguffin. He wasn’t fresh into AG - he’d been caretaking for six weeks, and with a season to prepare its clear he would have been sounded out (if not signed off) on players.

I get that people “like” Holden and dislike LJ. But clearly, the former wanted this job and took it under whatever conditions. He got 7 players on top of a consistent mid table squad and is taking it lower. Whether people like him or not, he’s garbage.

(So is Ashton btw)

He also didn’t lose anyone that he didn’t want to lose over the season. COYR 

[RedRock]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

Mate.

If you’re taking over a mid table championship squad, that you know well, and are given opportunity to sign 7 first team players that’s manna from heaven. That should in itself lead to a top six finish. The fact is the squad he inherited were good enough to be better than where we are now (proven by consistent position), and he had opportunity to improve it. Putting the blame on LJ (again, right time for him to go) for this debacle misses the mark.

And that’s the same Joe Morrell who can’t get in Luton’s team, correct?

I ain’t defending Ashton.

Holden, no doubt, told him he desperately wanted to add some bottle, strength, leadership, power, experience and will-to-win to reinforce a featherweight, powder-puff, bunch of losers that LJ had assembled.

I would speculate that Ashton then phoned his favourite Agent(s) - who, knowing we’re a soft touch, selected his most aging, injury prone players who were looking for their last pay cheque. Holden was given Ashton’s / the Agent’s list to select even more garbage to add to what we had. 

We’re as soft off-the-field as we are on it. 

[BTRFTG]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

I agree they were most likely on Ashtons list - but remember - the manager had the final say (yes, I agree that’s balls). But your point about Holdens time in charge is a maguffin. He wasn’t fresh into AG - he’d been caretaking for six weeks, and with a season to prepare its clear he would have been sounded out (if not signed off) on players.

I get that people “like” Holden and dislike LJ. But clearly, the former wanted this job and took it under whatever conditions. He got 7 players on top of a consistent mid table squad and is taking it lower. Whether people like him or not, he’s garbage.

(So is Ashton btw)

I agree Holden isn't up to it. As you say, as assistant to WeeLee and the utter drivel he left us with what we should have done is had a wholesale decontamination to remove the garbage accumulated under him.

I do think it's unfair to wholly lay the blame at Holden's feet and as I highlighted, with these signings coming days after being appointed it was more likely a case of :

"Would you like the job?"

"Yes please."

"Here are the players we've lined up for you."

"OK"

Now what I don't know is the level to which Holden was involved in identifying crap under WeeLee. Could be it was he who was the major problem and that WeeLee's weakness was going along with his thinking. Either way matters not. They'll both be gone soon and hopefully this time it'll be a fresh breath of air into the club that wafts away the stench.

[Phileas Fogg]

16 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

£10 says this is a pseudonym poster. 

Haha, I realised a few weeks back - forum was quiet without the previous alias

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, dREDful said:

We are only about 6 points worse off without him. 

The line ups, tactics, efforts on goal practically everything is still here from his reign. 

**** him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Check the current form maestro 

[JoeAman08]

LJ done about as well as you could under SL and MA. That said it was definitely time to go. The performances were dreadful and there is only so much you can listen to from LJ when losing. Maybe can say that about anyone but it was a good day when LJ left. Just like it was a bad day when Holden was appointed. Doesn’t make much sense so I guess what I am saying is I wouldn’t have LJ back but I do want Holden gone. Can’t take away the good LJ brought to the club though

[dREDful]

Just now, LoyalRed said:

Check the current form maestro 

Has "Deano" broken the losing record yet?

They're both utterly awful. 

 

 

[Simon79]

1 minute ago, RedRock said:

I ain’t defending Ashton.

Holden, no doubt, told him he desperately wanted to add some bottle, strength, leadership, power, experience and will-to-win to reinforce a featherweight, powder-puff, bunch of losers that LJ had assembled.

I would speculate that Ashton then phoned his favourite Agent(s) - who, knowing we’re a soft touch, selected his most aging, injury prone players who were looking for their last pay cheque. Holden was given Ashton’s / the Agent’s list to select even more garbage to add to what we had. 

We’re as soft off-the-field as we are on it. 

So LJ signed the crap & poor old Holden had more experienced players pushed on him. Then followed it up with playing a worse standard of football & dragging us towards a relegation battle. While LJ had us generally higher in the league position with a featherweight, powderpuff bunch of losers. COYR 

[Red_Alligator]

The first of now two underwhelming appointments. 

[RedRock]

1 minute ago, Simon79 said:

So LJ signed the crap & poor old Holden had more experienced players pushed on him. Then followed it up with playing a worse standard of football & dragging us towards a relegation battle. While LJ had us generally higher in the league position with a featherweight, powderpuff bunch of losers. COYR 

Yep. LJ had over 4 years to blend Ashton’s signings into a team and sort Ashton out. He had the ear of Uncle Steve so should have exerted some influence over the power that Steve allowed Ashton

Holden is just a continuation of Ashton’s empire but has lesser power or influence on the situation having virtually no experience of managing downwards, let alone upwards. I suspect, also, he has far less access to or influence over Steve.

 

We’re an absolute shambles and now way past a point where even a DofF can sort us out. 

[Victory Park Reds]

LJ and his PowerPoint dummy brummie mate are the reason we are in this USPking mess.

 

[phantom]

1 hour ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

He created most of this squad 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point a few times:

Mariappa- Too old- certainly for a medium to high line.

Brunt- Injured and too old- left when injured.

Martin- Poorly managed and now injured.

Mawson- Injured and now injured again- when fit he was very decent,

Sessegnon- Injured since the Autumn.

Williams- Injured for the bulk of the season.

Lansbury- Too early to judge but has a decent pedigree, experienced but not too old.

Thats seven”first team” players that Johnson didn’t sign. I’d also bet my bollocks he’d have kept Korey Smith. It was time for LJ to go, but Holden had had opportunity and funds to get the squad he wanted. This is more on DH than it is on LJ when you see what he’s had opportunity to bring in.

7 first team players is quite misleading- owing to the injury history- though Martin has been poorly managed and that would be on Holden potentially. He had a medical issue- it is incumbent on the club or manager to deal with that in the correct manner. We probably did not. You might suggest we shouldn't have signed him then, though his 12 goals and 7 assists at Derby last season showed that if managed and utilised correctly he can be quite an asset.

Mariappa? Surprised we signed him until May.

Did Korey feature regularly in 2018/19 and 2019/20? No- injury struck, especially in 2018/19.

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

£10 says this is a pseudonym poster. 

Oh yessss

Mr Ben in his ‘I love Lee’ pyjamas 

Good ole Matty

Thats four accounts minimum , running now @ReggyRed, @Yoyo2345 
How many more running ?

[Red Rag]

LJ gets the credit for me and 2 others not renewing our season cards. Bored rigid watching the dross he served up. 

[Cidre Monita]

1 hour ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

He is a good part of the reason for the mess we are in. 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Superjack said:

The problem at the club is Ashton, and has been since his arrival. But Johnson's tactics and team selection were the most awful and negative I have seen in my lifetime. Holden is the second manager in a row that should never have been appointed.

Not having it. Lees team played some truly fantastic stuff at times. It got stale and I think he lost his way but its rubbish to say he shouldn’t have been appointed. He consolidated us as a championship team after keeping us up and gave us 3 of the best performances this club has seen in at least my life time. 

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Red_Alligator said:

The first of now two underwhelming appointments. 

First of now two?

[BS4 on Tour...]

He got loads of external credit - he was the darling of Sky Sports for a short while - but we knew what they didn’t, every January to May we’d plummet into the ‘also ran’ territory ...

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Not having it. Lees team played some truly fantastic stuff at times. It got stale and I think he lost his way but its rubbish to say he shouldn’t have been appointed. He consolidated us as a championship team after keeping us up and gave us 3 of the best performances this club has seen in at least my life time. 

Do as you please. I disagree.

[Red Exile]

1 minute ago, MarcusX said:

First of now two?

Lee Johnson was also a deeply underwhelming appointment...notwithstanding he produced that great run of results culminating in the cup run..but he'd never managed at Championship level, had never won anything (still hasn't)...and wasn't widely popular as a player(although I rather liked him as a player myself).

[cidered abroad]

2 hours ago, Yoyo2345 said:

Looking at this team now and the management team above the Head coach did LJ actually achieve a hell of a lot more than what a lot give him credit for. 

Looking at it now, I'm definitely in that camp in the circumstances LJ did and absolute the job he  could do with the resources and the team above him.

No, he began the downturn by playing dull, defensive, boring football and set the tone of the squad where the significant majority look to play the ball sideways or backwards. Trying not to lose instead of trying to win!

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

No, he began the downturn by playing dull, defensive, boring football and set the tone of the squad where the significant majority look to play the ball sideways or backwards. Trying not to lose instead of trying to win!

Second Hand Toy Sale

Ashton Gate 1st June 2021

Sold as seen 

[B1ackbird]

2 hours ago, bearded_red said:

Jesus wept.

I've been saying that aswell and I shouldn't blaspheme!!!

 

You gotta though.... 

[MarcusX]

49 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Lee Johnson was also a deeply underwhelming appointment...notwithstanding he produced that great run of results culminating in the cup run..but he'd never managed at Championship level, had never won anything (still hasn't)...and wasn't widely popular as a player(although I rather liked him as a player myself).

Yea sorry I was confused by the first of two bit, forgot which thread I was on!

[ashton_fan]

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch. The other problem is our model of selling our best players - we got away with it for a while but when Brownhill went (shortly after Pack) it seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back, we've lost the ability to tackle in midfield. It may be LJ was achieving the maximum possible with this policy in place, I doubt he would have been sacked if Brownhill had not been sold. The squad is obviously way below the top sides in terms of ability now as shown today.

[RobintheRed Red]

5 hours ago, dREDful said:

We are only about 6 points worse off without him. 

The line ups, tactics, efforts on goal practically everything is still here from his reign. 

**** him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly he was responsible for bringing half the crap weve ended up with 

[Fammyfan]

16 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch. The other problem is our model of selling our best players - we got away with it for a while but when Brownhill went (shortly after Pack) it seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back, we've lost the ability to tackle in midfield. It may be LJ was achieving the maximum possible with this policy in place, I doubt he would have been sacked if Brownhill had not been sold. The squad is obviously way below the top sides in terms of ability now as shown today.

I agree with this.

 

The problem is that players like Pack and Brownhill were able to lead and drive the midfield. Players like Nagy and Massengo are good players alongside a Pack or Brownhill figure but they’re not the type to dominate the midfield.

 

We‘ve really missed a dominant midfield player and it’s been highly evident since we lost Brownhill and failed to replace him.

[Fuber]

43 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch. The other problem is our model of selling our best players - we got away with it for a while but when Brownhill went (shortly after Pack) it seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back, we've lost the ability to tackle in midfield. It may be LJ was achieving the maximum possible with this policy in place, I doubt he would have been sacked if Brownhill had not been sold. The squad is obviously way below the top sides in terms of ability now as shown today.

LJ was also responsible for;

- Initially ditching the pillars, as managers have sign-off on any signings (Wells, Watkins, Williams, and others).

- No current identity for the club to follow, which was a symptomatic of his final 24 months in charge

- Large lack of trust in youth (i.e. the supposed spat with Tinnion in 2019 as was rumoured on here), highlighted by lack of gametime for said yoiuth players from the bench and in cup games.

- For the most part did not develop players - which is the single biggest metric by which he should be measured, as per the model this was the key aspect in which he had to perform; I'll briefly outline;

I.e. Kelly regressed slightly when playing senior football, before Bournemouth signed him (on the basis of his U21 England performnances).

Reid found consistency in a forward role once enforced to said change - credit LJ for being brave enough to try that in season and it worked.

Brownhill developed through natural play-time and maturing, full credit, now fulfilling his potential at Burnley and playing well.

Webster was a single season - in that regard we struck lucky in the fact Ipswich's treatment room is more cursed than ours, and that Adam wasn't here where Rolls is now in charge.

However most other signings and/or academy products were ditched by the wayside, not given a chance, or sold out barely having featured, loaned out for development, injury prone, or already at their 'peak', in terms of on-pitch performances.

For example (plus Academy products that LJ rarely if ever played outside of cup games); Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Eliasson (on here as we was criminally under-used), Djuric, Magnússon, Hegeler, O'Dowda, Pato, Wright, Vyner, Lucic, Eisa, Watkins, Hunt, Weimann, Semenyo, Palmer, Massengo, Wells, Nagy, Rowe, Adelakun, Szmodics, Williams, Gilmartin, O'Leary, are all players of note that align with one of the aformentioned factors. (Player in Bold, are those who either left for the same/less than the amount signed, contacts end this season, or would be unlikely to recoup outlay spent to sign).

Of those, 'development' signings, i.e. players that were supposed to improve under LJ, did not even get a chance to play, if barely - such as Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Lucic, Massengo, Adelakun, and Szmodics, were all players that could arguable be viewed as such deals.

All of them failed to improve the team by some metric compared to players previous to LJ's arrival, or get game-time ahead of other signings LJ made during his tenure under Ashton.

That means in terms of players that increased their value, markedly improved in some metric - there aren't many. No player at this club, signed during the LJ era, have sustained a level of performance greater than their first 3-4 month period at the club. I'd go as far as to say that in terms of individual player performances and entrusting Youth, Holden's almost done as much as LJ in terms of player development in his first 6 months, than LJ managed over his entire four and a half season period, albeit enforced, i.e. Vyner, Bakinson, Semenyo have all actually been entrusted with first team duties.

When you compare this, in addition to - and this is the key point for me - the shear increase in playing staff wages - during LJ's tenure, the - ultimately minor - table position increments are essentially, in my opinion, useless.

We had most momentum post the Cup run, and haven't got back up to those levels of performances since.

To summarise - LJ was solid in his first two years, he stumbled upon a system that actually suited the squad, was easy on the eye, and got fans on side.

He then proceeded to bin it, started signing more experience players where he refused to trust younger players, focused on countering the opposition - and in doing so - eliminated ANY KIND OF IDENTITY TO THE WAY WE PLAY.

Our entire situation as current is as a result of LJ's mismanagment and playing style in the final two years of his reign, Ashton supposed scouting network, and the latter catastrophic **** up that lead to Holden's appointment after three weeks of deliberation.

 

[pnefcok]

29 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch. The other problem is our model of selling our best players - we got away with it for a while but when Brownhill went (shortly after Pack) it seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back, we've lost the ability to tackle in midfield. It may be LJ was achieving the maximum possible with this policy in place, I doubt he would have been sacked if Brownhill had not been sold. The squad is obviously way below the top sides in terms of ability now as shown today.

To be fair I remember watching PNE beat Bristol City 5-0 under Lee Johnson and you were horrendous on the night, but LJ seemed to recover from it relatively quickly.

From the outside looking in, whilst I think Johnson underachieved given the resources that were available to him in the transfer market, I don't see how the Bristol City hierarchy thought appointing his assistant would be an upgrade, or improve your fortunes on the pitch. It's just appointing another puppet.

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, pnefcok said:

To be fair I remember watching PNE beat Bristol City 5-0 under Lee Johnson and you were horrendous on the night, but LJ seemed to recover from it relatively quickly.

From the outside looking in, whilst I think Johnson underachieved given the resources that were available to him in the transfer market, I don't see how the Bristol City hierarchy thought appointing his assistant would be an upgrade, or improve your fortunes on the pitch. It's just appointing another puppet.

We, unfortunately, have a track record of doing this and not learning from our errors, which are numerous. Circa Millen post Gary Johnson in 2011.

Coppell, in my opinion, was not a Yes-man, and scared Lansdown away from appointed any kind of opinionated manager, hence the foremost supposed friction under Cotts.

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, pnefcok said:

To be fair I remember watching PNE beat Bristol City 5-0 under Lee Johnson and you were horrendous on the night, but LJ seemed to recover from it relatively quickly.

From the outside looking in, whilst I think Johnson underachieved given the resources that were available to him in the transfer market, I don't see how the Bristol City hierarchy thought appointing his assistant would be an upgrade, or improve your fortunes on the pitch. It's just appointing another puppet.

I am struggling to think of any time appointing the assistant as the boss after the boss has left for under-achieving has ever worked out well. I am happy to be proven wrong but the evidence at Championship level from both Bournemouth and City bears that out. (And yes I know Rooney had started coaching at Derby before Cocu was replaced but it was only latterly that Rooney was coaching and not specifically brought in as Cocu’s assistant).

[Robin-hugh-blind]

In response to the OP. LJ got plenty of credit. He still does for the job he done here. And he was the right appointment at the time. But it was time for a change, even the iron lady had her time. He had his time and it was up, it is football after all.

We may well see an LJ Sunderland above us next season. 

Holden was cheap option for covid hopefully, and not MA ensuring he hasn't go to battle a real leader.

Plenty of nerds on here know about the money, but surely picking Holden means when that big loss of a few years back drops of for ffp, we can 'go for it' because we haven't spent this season. 

Who really knows, I'm sure if Holden paid off, MA smuggery would have been a sight to behold. It hasn't (shock) and he looks like a t I t.  

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Fuber said:

For example (plus Academy products that LJ rarely if ever played outside of cup games); Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Eliasson (on here as we was criminally under-used), Djuric, Magnússon, Hegeler, O'Dowda, Pato, Wright, Vyner, Lucic, Eisa, Watkins, Hunt, Weimann, Semenyo, Palmer, Massengo, Wells, Nagy, Rowe, Adelakun, Szmodics, Williams, Gilmartin, O'Leary, are all players of note that align with one of the aformentioned factors. (Player in Bold, are those who either left for the same/less than the amount signed, contacts end this season, or would be unlikely to recoup outlay spent to sign).

Sorry to basically miss most of this post but I query whether a number of these- not all but a number- are/were poor signings or were somewhat poorly deployed- not least by LJ (which would put blame on him). Bit of both certainly possible.

From a playing POV I mean- value and profit on disposal differs of course but you need a mix.

[Superjack]

I give him credit for managing not to be sacked at least three times before he was.

[Fordy62]

8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch.

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch.

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

[Fordy62]

double post, so I’ll just reiterate that I’m no LJ fan.  

[Carey 6]

Johnson got credit for stabilising us. 

We we’re going backwards at the end of his time in charge & most of us wished for a new manager capable of taking us to the new level. 

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody wanted Dean Holden. 

We expected better & still do. 

I said when he got hired, when it inevitably goes badly they won’t sack him for ages because it will have proved us, the fans, right.

[sh1t_ref_again]

13 hours ago, RedRock said:

Yep. LJ had over 4 years to blend Ashton’s signings into a team and sort Ashton out. He had the ear of Uncle Steve so should have exerted some influence over the power that Steve allowed Ashton

Holden is just a continuation of Ashton’s empire but has lesser power or influence on the situation having virtually no experience of managing downwards, let alone upwards. I suspect, also, he has far less access to or influence over Steve.

 

We’re an absolute shambles and now way past a point where even a DofF can sort us out. 

Ashton signings, I don't like the bloke either but to say all the players were his signings and not LJ's is nonsense. 

No way would LJ who as you say had the ear of SL been just given players and told to get on with it. He is a much stronger character than that. 

I do believe the way it works is LJ would say the type of player he needs, the scouting team would come up with reccomendations, LJ would say yes to a certain player and MA would try to do the deal.