Derby County

[Davefevs]

 

[chinapig]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I read Kirchner's last comments as saying sign off on the deal now because I am not going to fund the club after Saturday. Will be intetesting to see what happens on that.

And of course the stadium sale is going to take time, even if you think it is acceptable for the local council to be handing Morris £20m.

Still no news on any deal with HMRC, though I suspect any sweetheart deal will infuriate clubs who pay their taxes.

Still not imminent then.

[ExiledAjax]

8 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I read Kirchner's last comments as saying sign off on the deal now because I am not going to fund the club after Saturday. Will be intetesting to see what happens on that.

And of course the stadium sale is going to take time, even if you think it is acceptable for the local council to be handing Morris £20m.

Still no news on any deal with HMRC, though I suspect any sweetheart deal will infuriate clubs who pay their taxes.

Still not imminent then.

I saw a tweet where he referred to a "conditional" share purchase agreement. I very rarely would recommend such a thing, but I suppose it is possible to sign an SPA that transfers voting power (by way of a POA) without transferring legal title or beneficial title to the shares. transfer of the legal and beneficial title, ie "ownership" could then be conditional upon anything, including the sale of the stadium. That would allow him to operate the club using the voting POA, but would not make him the full owner of the shares. It could also have stipulations regarding ongoing funding of the company.

But, the above would be unusual enough to no doubt require "further dialogue" with the EFL. It would be far from straightforward, and if the EFL approved it and then those conditions were not met...potentially very sticky.

Edited May 5, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Mr Popodopolous]

HMRC have accepted 35p in the £ then?? 2+2=5? Just reading between the lines of Kirchner and the apparent remaining hurdle(s).

Seems odd given that a) The new rules were introduced in December 2020 about a bump up in their status for a variety of types of HMRC debt- and b) We are at a time whereby HMRC need every penny. They also claim not to do sweetheart deals...the silence on the HMRC issue has been deafening for a while.

If they insisted on full payment then either they would get zero or £36m over time...if they folded for 35% it would be barring any interest payments on said debt, £12.6m.

Deafening silence on Wycombe too- surely it would have been reported had Couhig settled.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Derby_Ram]

Reading between the lines, and John Percy's subsequent tweet in reply it does feel like a behind the scenes deal with HMRC could have been agreed.

Grave sticking point remains the ground and I never thought Purdah would have an impact on any takeovers but here we are. My sense is a deal on the ground can't be completed before next week due to the time it takes DCC to follow process on the loan but they can't formally say anything now leaving everyone in the dark. Rumours of MM jacking the price up in the last couple of days abound too. 

I think CK will get approval from the EFL, last couple of i's and t's to be dotted and crossed; he then has to make a call on whether he can complete and fun based on the ground not being fully done and dusted.

Wycombe I have zero concern over, Mr P. CK was very upfront before Christmas that he'd take Couhig on as the claim had no substance in his and his lawyers eyes. Ultimately he may still lose any case but it shouldn't be an impediment to a takeover as he said before he'd underwrite it. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks, does make some sense- although I would expect a fairly hardline Business Plan on Derby if so- 65% of debt written off is an enormous advantage if accurate so...needs some significant EFL countermeasures to compensate.

I thought the Wycombe claim was relatively small in the grand scheme so taking on the potential debt and fighting the case would seem a way to go- I assume Wycombe have not dropped their claim?

He'll get approval yes but will he be happy to work under the Parameters?

Borrowing money is interesting- from whom would they borrow? I mentioned the other day a rule change in respect of borrowing for Commercial purposes.

https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-media/general/hm-treasury-stops-public-loans-to-council-s-for-commercial-property

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/403-projects-news/48010-treasury-guidance-sees-councils-allowed-to-use-public-works-loan-board-to-refinance-commercial-property-debt-that-would-otherwise-be-ineligible-for-support

As for some on DCFCFans- I do wish I had gone to Pride Park, esp in Hospitality as I was considering. Maybe next season if I am up North!

Derby v Sunderland or Derby v Ipswich, Derby v Bolton or even Derby v Sheffield Wednesday- some reasonable games down there subject to playoffs- am I missing some?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Reading between the lines, and John Percy's subsequent tweet in reply it does feel like a behind the scenes deal with HMRC could have been agreed.

Quite probably, despite HMRC claiming they don't do sweetheart deals. Though I doubt they would do the same for a small business that was struggling because Morris didn't pay the bills. Low hanging fruit and all that.

If I was a club owner I would be tempted to write to HMRC to say I would only pay 35% of taxes due as I didn't see why my club shouldn't benefit from cheating as well.

Grave sticking point remains the ground and I never thought Purdah would have an impact on any takeovers but here we are. My sense is a deal on the ground can't be completed before next week due to the time it takes DCC to follow process on the loan but they can't formally say anything now leaving everyone in the dark. Rumours of MM jacking the price up in the last couple of days abound too. 

I still find it extraordinary in these straitened times that nobody bats an eyelid at a local authority bailing out a scumbag like Morris. What happens if Kirchner doesn't keep up payments to DCC also?

Perhaps we should have asked Bristol City Council to pay for the upgrade to Ashton Gate. I'm sure local tax payers wouldn't have minded.

How plausible are the rumours that Morris has upped the price? Wouldn't surprise me as his aim all along has been to look after number one.

I think CK will get approval from the EFL, last couple of i's and t's to be dotted and crossed; he then has to make a call on whether he can complete and fun based on the ground not being fully done and dusted.

Can the EFL agree if there is no certainty that Derby will have a ground to play at? Again, Morris is looking after his interests while Kirchner is neither willing nor able to buy the Stadium. Though it's all the EFL's fault of course.

Wycombe I have zero concern over, Mr P. CK was very upfront before Christmas that he'd take Couhig on as the claim had no substance in his and his lawyers eyes. Ultimately he may still lose any case but it shouldn't be an impediment to a takeover as he said before he'd underwrite it. 

Kieran Maguire reckoned that Wycombe's claim was for a trivial amount anyway so I don't think it's an issue now.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

@chinapig

Quote

I still find it extraordinary in these straitened times that nobody bats an eyelid at a local authority bailing out a scumbag like Morris. What happens if Kirchner doesn't keep up payments to DCC also?

Hasn't yet been formally confirmed- would we expect a lot more noise and pushback when it goes through and the noise? (Not from Derby but around the country)- I wonder if local MPs elsewhere will kick off.

Remember councils are partially funded by the taxpayer and the irony is not lost that Derby courtesy of Mel Morris owe the taxpayer rather a lot of money...in an ideal world, Pride Park would be seized and sold to pay the creditors from MSD to the local baker- to a financial Investment property firm on a commercial basis, I am sure that they would set a Fair Rent for Derby. Main thing is it would cut out Mel Morris.

[Monkeh]

If a deal with the hmrc has been made, then that's how much I'm reducing my tax by

[Derby_Ram]

Mr P.

Wycombe - nothing announced. Wouldnt surprise me to see Couhig flounce off if challenged. Had a feel of Ambulance chasing.

DCC borrowing money - not an expert, and can't for life of me track it down (still looking) but there was a link somewhere which demonstrated how they could still borrow money. I just don't enough to comment properly but gut says if they had no mechanism to access it we wouldn't be this far down the line.

Plenty of crackers next year - Wednesday, Sunderland, Wycombe could be tasty...., Ipswich, Bolton, 

Your ideal scenario of Pride Park being seized - if serious - is you in cloud cuckoo land

CK has already briefed the Sun who've run the story in the last 15mins about a ground share with Stoke or Leicester next year.

 

Chinapig

HMRC - anyone can do it. They've fought to get preferential status. Would seem odd not to use it but if they deem this is the most they'll get....

EFL agree with no ground? - as above the brinkmanship started. CK obviously has had conversations with 2 other clubs. Could conceivably be he says to EFL " I'm either buying the ground, renting from DCC, or groundsharing. Don't know which yet but here's the worst case groundshare"

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

 

Monkeh

Let me know how you get on so I know if its worth me giving it a go

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Mr P.

Your ideal scenario of Pride Park being seized - if serious - is you in cloud cuckoo land

I said ideal not realistic. Seize Pride Park to sell it and pay off creditors- would have no issue with that from an ideal POV.

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

In which case, some kinda formula to subtract central government funding to Derby on a pro rata basis linked to the HMRC debt. Central funding does go to councils, some % of clawback or withhold in terms of the HMRC Derby debt given that the council would be complicit in a dubious bailout of a club who owe the Government £36m. 

Quote

In 2019/20, local authorities in England received 23% of their funding from government grants

Some kind of formula but we know that 23% of funding comes from Central Government for councils in England. Clearly not 23% but my starting point is withholding a certain amount of Central Govt funding and rediverting it to make good the HMRC debt.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Ground share to undermine Morris I’m in favour of.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One bit that I do wonder about is the EFL Insolvency Policy.

We see snippets online and we saw Kieran Maguire posting snippets of it a few weeks ago but it's not great Governance to have the bulk of the policy seemingly hidden from public view. Those snippets that Kieran posted on Twitter were not findable through regular searching etc.

Certainly not on the EFL website, nor did it materialise via e.g. key word searches.

I don't understand where Kieran sourced the info from- it certainly doesn't seem to be easily findable or in the clearly public domain. Commercial confidentiality? Can't think of many reasons why the overall finer details of their Insolvency Policy shouldn't be readily accessible.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

Batting eyelids at DCC bailing out Morris - I wouldn't expect you to (it's not your club and there's no need) but you're not looking properly. We don't like it. But if it eliminates MM from the picture you suck it up. 

I wouldn't expect Derby fans to be bothered, particularly those who quickly switched the blame to the EFL thus letting MM off the hook.

Presumably local taxpayers in Derby will suck it up as too there seems to be no obvious controversy about it.

That doesn't mean there aren't matters of principle and precedent applying to the game as a whole that others, particularly other club owners, aren't allowed to raise.

CK is going to have to do business with other clubs (including signing 40 players it seems!) so he'd probably be wise not to tell them to suck it up.

[Derby_Ram]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In which case, some kinda formula to subtract central government funding to Derby on a pro rata basis linked to the HMRC debt. Central funding does go to councils, some % of clawback or withhold in terms of the HMRC Derby debt given that the council would be complicit in a dubious bailout of a club who owe the Government £36m. 

If this is in place already, for sure. But if we're creating things to fix broken loopholes then no. You put something in place to address it in future. You've been a firm advocate the last few weeks of EFL sticking to their rules and processes re Derby. We can't suddenly turn around and say the EFL/HMRC/any other interested party puts things in place now as we don't like the outcome. We'd be imminently selling PP to ourselves for the umpteenth time if that could happen!

4 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Still not convinced your man has the money to do the deal though , I guess we will know on Monday, or you will see Ashely pick up the remains. You not going to die yet ! It just depends where you start the  come back from. That journey in itself could also be fun. 

The EFL have just released a statement which surprise surprise is less than clear. I can't quite work out if they're satisfied with his funding but have other things to resolve, or things to resolve on the funding. I do think MA still has a part to play.

The journey could well be fun. Next season I'm looking forward to the tour of places we've not been to for a long time/ever. It's years 2, 3 and beyond I'm less looking forward to!

[Derby_Ram]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I wouldn't expect Derby fans to be bothered, particularly those who quickly switched the blame to the EFL thus letting MM off the hook.

Presumably local taxpayers in Derby will suck it up as too there seems to be no obvious controversy about it.

That doesn't mean there aren't matters of principle and precedent applying to the game as a whole that others, particularly other club owners, aren't allowed to raise.

CK is going to have to do business with other clubs (including signing 40 players it seems!) so he'd probably be wise not to tell them to suck it up.

We are bothered though. We don't like it. We think it's abhorrent. We know it let's MM off the hook. But if it gets rid of him that's what we suck up.

And CK should be treated like a God in boardrooms up and down the country if he gets it over the line for removing MM from the equation. That has to be worth a load of Man U kids free of charge at least 

[Mr Popodopolous]

One for @Hxj before I forget.

Didn't you say a while back that you had heard the money would run out not long after the Cardiff game. Derby fans certainly found that amusing over on their forum!

Not quite so amusing now? Although the Preferred Bidder being in situ helps matters as vs then.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The original post

The Derby reaction

1,146 and 1,147 of the admin thread. Granted a preferred bidder has improved matters but the initial claim that was scoffed at about money running out following the Cardiff game certainly has more credence than they considered at the time.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38855-the-administration-thread/page/1147/

Part 2 seems to have moved along- as in it surely exceeds the MSD bid now what Kirchner is offering?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Didn't you say a while back that you had heard the money would run out not long after the Cardiff game. Derby fans certainly found that amusing over on their forum!

I did, my information was that the money would run out by next Monday, and that there were problems with the ground ownership and the business plan.  All have now been confirmed by Mr Kirchner himself. 

I don't mind being mocked on dcfcfans, it's not their fault.

[Hxj]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Part 2 seems to have moved along- as in it surely exceeds the MSD bid now what Kirchner is offering?

My understanding at the time still seems to be correct.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I did, my information was that the money would run out by next Monday, and that there were problems with the ground ownership and the business plan.  All have now been confirmed by Mr Kirchner himself. 

I don't mind being mocked on dcfcfans, it's not their fault.

You clearly have some quite good info. Part 2 sounds relatively intriguing. -15 pts and Insolvency Policy vs what Kirchner is offering?

As for the actual stadium purchase that is planned itself, I wonder if it might be paid for out of council reserves- a guaranteed ROI if done on commercial lines.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ground share to undermine Morris I’m in favour of.

No talk of sharing with Forest then? 

[Hxj]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You clearly have some quite good info.

I have some good contacts.

I also understand that issues have now been raised over the purchase of the ground by the City Council and whether or not that amounts to 'State Aid'.  'State Aid' is significantly restricted where the recipient of the benefit is an 'Undertaking in Difficulty'.  Benefit is not just cash, so for example a lease at a non-market rent is also 'State Aid'.

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hxj

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, Midred said:

No talk of sharing with Forest then? 

Be funny if they shared Meadow Lane with County!

[Hxj]

2 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Be funny if they shared Meadow Lane with County!

Much more appropriate, especially as most of it is painted black and white, and it is was also once owned by a financial manipulator.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I have some good contacts.

I also understand that issues have now been raised over the purchase of the ground and whether or not that amounts to 'State Aid'.  'State Aid' is significantly restricted where the recipient of the benefit is an 'Undertaking in Difficulty'.  Benefit is not just cash, so for example a lease at a non-market rent is also 'State Aid'.

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

I'd assume it would have to be leased at a rate that is favourable to the council- I gave the Plymouth example a while back. 8.5% per year of the purchase price in rent and a buyback option at a bit above the purchase price- but 'State Aid' I wonder? Certainly smacks  of it in some ways!

In these inflationary times, inflation-linked rent would also be fair IMO.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Wait until the lawyers really get involved!

As you mention lawyers, Kieran Maguire said last week that Quantuma shelled out £145k on lawyers with the intention of appealing against the points deduction for going into administration. An appeal with no hope of success that they didn't pursue.

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd assume it would have to be leased at a rate that is favourable to the council

But the real test is what is the open market rent,  We already have a figure £3 million odd a year, see the Disciplinary Committee and League Appeal Panel decisions,

[Mr Popodopolous]

On my more usual level ya boo point scoring bit...

EatonRam is unhappy about the EFL Insolvency Policy but his posts don't follow through so well.

Shouldn't have gone into admin then eh! 

Should have sold some in Jan 2022 then eh, when some seemingly reasonable offers were in situ! Better to get even not a perfect fee and accept the likelihood of League 1 than nothing at all! 

Just now, Hxj said:

But the real test is what is the open market rent,  We already have a figure £3 million odd a year, see the Disciplinary Committee and League Appeal Panel decisions,

£4.16m per year IIRC if we're talking about the same thing.

[Hxj]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

£4.16m per year IIRC if we're talking about the same thing.

I happily stand corrected.

The season ticket issue is a misunderstanding.  An Administrator simply cannot use cash received in respect of future income to fund current cash expenditure.  If they do they might have to repay the sums personally.