Derby County

[ExiledAjax]

Anyone want a ticket for Saturday?

Unfortunately circumstances have meant that I will now have to toast Hav and the rest of you in front of a TV screen rather than the Pride Park faithful.

DM me if interested. 

Otherwise it's a museum piece now.

[Derby_Ram]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

As I said I think he’s done a good job.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

He's confirmed he's assuming funding duties from May 7th.

That's good to hear, and will be the real test.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's kinda ancient history now but @Hxj probably knows a few things on it. May as well ask. 

The eventual 'Agreed Decision' showed that Derby indeed wanted to restate the accounts further, to add around £30m to the Profit on disposal ie subtracting £30m from the carrying value at time of disposal to boost the profit accordingly.

As we know Derby eventually accepted that it was unable to be included as a matter of compliance with accounting standards in the context of the EFL's regulations

What were the actual technical grounds that the EFL disallowed it on? That snippet was pretty vague and wooly all told. Don't get me wrong, right decision but clear reasoning?

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for actual football matters.

21 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

I think this is where we all see an opposition player do something once - in person or on a highlight - and think they're better than the rubbish our own lot turn out each week

I'd have much rather had your squad than ours!

If you'd have let us do a player swap CKR for Martin I think we could have scraped enough points all season. The difference between our squads (having seen less of City than most teams all year but knowing Martin/Weimann well) is you've got players who can stick the ball in the back of the net. We relied on Lawrence wonder strikes.

Seen a few posts from City fans with Roos as a decent keeper. I hope for your sakes he isn't someone you pilfer from us in the summer - that would be a scouting failure. Allsop on the other hand....

But to go back to the original point; the whole club could be knocked from top to bottom yet this season Rooney can be exempted from that - both for dragging the squad to what he did and as importantly galvanising the whole club/fanbase etc  (I didn't want him as a player or then as a manager). He's pleasantly shocked me. Next year though he will have a different pressure and as fans we're always a fickle bunch! But he worked wonders with the players throughout the season

Think Rooney has done quite well, he has certainly carried himself well and represented the club well all told.

Think the squads have some similarities but, one thing (and this is pre January and the mini firesale granted), Derby seem to have less medium term, niggling injuries than us. That's another part of the equation.

Okay our injuries are nothing like last season but...

1. Baker- Has missed the bulk of the season injured. Quite an important player, indeed wonder if we'll ever see him in a City shirt again.
2. Williams- He gives some bite in midfield or can do- he has missed quite a lot of the last two seasons injured.
3. Semenyo- Was out for about 3 months initially and then had another few weeks out. The end product is one thing but he gives us another dimension in our attacking play- when he's out they aren't any like for like in the squad.

Then there are players such as Tanner- undoubtedly still learning his trade but was quite promising for the first couple of months. He's been out for months but more importantly our only real viable option at RB, or at least who can slot between RB and RWB. Atkinson showed some real promise and then got a bout of Covid- same age as Atkinson, he is now starting to show some decent things again. I think James and King in particular- the latter has missed quite some time- and James less but still medium term, thank goodness Weimann has remained fit is is alI can say. Even now Williams is struggling to start two games in a week, granted we're being clever but for a player who started 70-80% of League games on average at Barnsley, Bolton, Wigan it's a huge downturn. James had a near ever-present record last season across two clubs, unlucky or what! King is older and was brought as more of a fringe option, I can accept. Although he has had two medium to long term injuries this season alone!

Just checked- King- he has had hamstring surgery twice in one season.

OTOH I am surprised that Martin has remained as fit for as long as he has. He is certainly over 30 and wasn't someone I had down as starting as many as he has done and remaining relatively effectively- still think he could be used a bit more sparingly but it's been a pleasant surprise his availability. I'd argue we have better strikers but and especially with the injuries being as they were combined with a smaller squad than prior seasons, we've had to patch up, make do and mend somewhat- Weimann at RWB at Blackburn for example sticks out! We've also played a very promising young player called Scott at RWB for a range of games, he's a bit more suited but all things being equal he's a midfielder.

Other example of a knock on effect of Tanner's absence, we've played a left back at both Right Back and in other games Wing Back- DaSilva. Tanner has been out for us since QPR at home at the end of December IIRC.

Forgot to add, Cundy at Centre back, he was also  out for 5-6 months. Whether he gets a new contract is a matter of debate but can ill-afford it when the squad is relatively thin.

Now Byrne, I have him down a) As a decent RB for a start b) In and around peak years, 29 isn't he- WhoScored says he's made 40 starts which is excellent.

Bielik I guess would be your equivalent of Williams- as in often injured but a good CM all the same, both a similar age although Williams now 25, Bielik 24.

Knight has played 35 Championship games for example- midfield is often the engine room of a side, I would suggest Derby have had more stability in CM than us this season.

Bird- another. 38 starts, 1 sub appearance.

Central defence- Davies 43/43 starts.

On the flipside, Shinnie was injured for a time- and then sold, aforementioned Bielik and Jagielka being pulled out did not help.

I also would suggest that Derby had a weaker squad than last season- or a thinner one anyway, even before the January mini firesale. That's credit to Rooney for getting more points with a thinner squad.

1. Wisdom- Gone
2. Clarke- Strong loanee, gone.
3. Waghorn- Gone
4. Marriott- Gone

Plus January loanees in Mengi, Edmundson, Roberts and Gregory. They in a way replaced players such as Evans, Holmes and Whittaker IIRC?

Talking of Wisdom cash permitting, and obviously his fitness will be shot by not being resigned by Derby, he'd be a useful addition for a Championship club on a free IMO.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Waconda]

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Comments above.

If Derby put out this team v us and you ignore finances / points deduction etc

Roos

Byrne / Jagielka / Davies / Buchanan

Knight / Shinnie / Bird

Eboseke / CKR / Lawrence

Subs (from): Morrison, Joswiak, Stearman, Marshall, Sibley, Forsyth etc

might you argue that’s better than City?  I didn’t include Bielik.

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

Regardless of Derby we have a solid mid table Championship squad and have underperformed this season.

No "Nadine Dorries" style defence can hide that.

[Hxj]

40 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's kinda ancient history now but @Hxj probably knows a few things on it. May as well ask. 

The eventual 'Agreed Decision' showed that Derby indeed wanted to restate the accounts further, to add around £30m to the Profit on disposal ie subtracting £30m from the carrying value at time of disposal to boost the profit accordingly.

The Agreed Decision is probably sensibly vague as after all it is an Agreed Decision not a litigated one.

My understanding is that DCFC choose to value the stadium in a certain way in the accounts, and as that method is entirely appropriate under the relevant accounting standards then it is fixed.

The fact that other treatments of other amounts were inappropriate under the relevant accounting standards and need to be changed does not give you the right to change other valid decisions because you no longer like them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The Agreed Decision is probably sensibly vague as after all it is an Agreed Decision not a litigated one.

My understanding is that DCFC choose to value the stadium in a certain way in the accounts, and as that method is entirely appropriate under the relevant accounting standards then it is fixed.

The fact that other treatments of other amounts were inappropriate under the relevant accounting standards and need to be changed does not give you the right to change other valid decisions because you no longer like them.

Thanks for that. Trying to understand and summarise it in my mind.

1. Valuation method- Fair enough.
2. Revaluation Reserve credited to profit and loss to bolster profit on disposal- Non compliant with FRS 102?

I remember at the time, Kieran Maguire seemed to think it could be legit.

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Revaluation Reserve credited to profit and loss to bolster profit on disposal- Non compliant with FRS 102?

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contrast with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contract with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

Thanks- that does clear it up. Too late then basically...spotted too late, they would still highly likely have failed to 2021/22 in any event but that would have required some kinda in-season process and Business Plan from Summer 2021 if even possible.

It did seem like the EFL were minded not to accept it in any event, the extra Revaluation Reserve cash/profit.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[cityexile]

5 hours ago, Hxj said:

If they had made the adjustment on the transfer to FRS 102 then it would be compliant.  As they did not then they cannot now change their mind because they don't like the answer as it was was an acceptable accounting treatment.

Contrast with the 'amortisation' that was an unacceptable accounting policy and therefore has to be changed.

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, cityexile said:

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

Good post. A lot of people can conflate these issues you are right.

The EFL have actually shut off a range of loopholes, the Fixed Asset one is the big one we have seen exploited from 2017/18 to last season. UEFA have actually had the Fixed Asset one shut since day one of FFP. It seemed to open in the EFL from 2016/17 to 2020/21 and has been shut again.

I do agree on SL. He won't abdicate his wider responsibilities even if we fail FFP and I get docked points.

Neither in fairness, have the owners of Birmingham, Reading or Sheffield Wednesday to date although they seem somewhat questionable.

What made the Derby case unique to date was the fact that they seemed to go into administration at the same time as having an FFP case hanging over them..that is unique and without precedent.

Birmingham, Reading and Sheffield Wednesday didn't run out of cash/owner funding but failed FFP.

Bolton and Wigan ran out of cash or owner funding but didn't lose enough to breach FFP. They just didn't.

Seems pretty hard to have both issues simultaneously but Mel Morris achieved it! He also as he promised years ago took them out of the division...

You might be right but in the interests of fairness and consistency plus all the clubs who were within FFP especially after Covid adjustments the EFL may still have to look at Business Plans at the very least going into 2022/23.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

3 hours ago, cityexile said:

I know this is all technical stuff that I must confess I do not entirely follow, but as an interested (but non accounting) follower it does seem there are two things that can get mixed up a little for those who are interested.:

-   Meeting the requirements of FFP. Sure it’s meant to ensure a level playing field, but it is where most of the games accounting wise seem to get played. ‘How can we treat this to stay within these rules’. Seems from the outside a bit of a arms race with clubs trying to come up with fancy new treatments that the EFL then try and close down:

-   Related, but different, does a club have the funds to pay its debts. You can play all the accounting ruses in the world, but there does come a time you will run out of money and simply cannot pay your bills.

Derby, for all the clever stuff on their stadium etc, still ran out of money. Clearly FFP is designed to reduce the chances of that happening, but it just seems to reinforce that you can  play all the games you like, but if your funding is not secure you will go bust. Can argue till the cows come home about some of their accounting treatments, but rather than a ruse to get round FFP, ultimately it meant they went bust.

Taking us, we could conceivably fall foul of FFP and take a penalty. For all SLs faults I do not believe for one minute he would actually allow us to go bust. This might be naive, but have a sneaky feeling when push comes to shove given all the COVID challenges, the EFL might be slightly more forgiving around FFP in the short term, IF they are convinced there is no real financial risk to the club going forward. 

Yes cash is what kills businesses as you so succinctly put it! Great post!  

Edited April 20, 2022 by REDOXO

[Waconda]

On 19/04/2022 at 15:45, Davefevs said:

Comments above.

If Derby put out this team v us and you ignore finances / points deduction etc

Roos

Byrne / Jagielka / Davies / Buchanan

Knight / Shinnie / Bird

Eboseke / CKR / Lawrence

Subs (from): Morrison, Joswiak, Stearman, Marshall, Sibley, Forsyth etc

might you argue that’s better than City?  I didn’t include Bielik.

All about opinions though, but I think that’s a tad stronger than us….not much, admittedly….but I don’t think it’s weak either.  Bottom end of middle-eight, just like us.

                         Bentley

       Kakas     Klose     Baker     DaSilva

          HNM     James     Williams

      Weimann     Martin     Semenyo

Subs.

from.

Oleary, Atkinson, Tanner, Pring, King, Bakinson, ODowda, Wells, Palmer. Scott, Benarous etc

 

We have a stronger squad them them for sure.

You know it, I know it.

Your obsession with pretending that our squad is weaker than it is to suit a narrative is embarrassing.

You actually said that Luton have a better squad than us FFS !!

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I won't stir up the hornets nest but I would say this about the below. 

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38131-views-from-the-outside-2122/?do=findComment&comment=2328857

Basically we are and have been quite strong believers in FFP as a club and a fanbase. Wasn't just the scale of the losses but how Derby tried to cover it up. Am quite at ease now relegation has occurred but at the same time the EFL have a duty to 72 not one in order to maintain the integrity of the League. To e.g. allow Derby to go carte blanche signing players as they see fit at the same time as a huge amount of debt written off would not sit well at all.

I also have to say that they- by which I mean the EFL- have upheld their rules impressively. They did not bow to pressure, the MPs getting involved didn't lead to them crumbling on FFP or insolvency issues, even refusing the cramdown option for Middlesbrough and Wycombe- this was a bit unexpected.

Many though would see relegation as a fitting punishment- and the same with Sheffield Wednesday. Reading too although that's looking unlikely now? I do on a general note have to wonder whether the EFL goal for flagrant breaches of FFP is a drip-drip effect, embargoes and points to weaken a side to the point of relegation.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

@Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

@Mr Popodopolous

Thanks Dave.

Had a quick look at Kieran's summary, interesting to see that the HMRC debt has shot up by over 1/4. Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors, cross-guarantee of some kind...thought there was also a second MSD loan in October 2020 secured against the Training Ground although it could all be bundled in and included as one.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks Dave.

Had a quick look at Kieran's summary, interesting to see that the HMRC debt has shot up by over 1/4. Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors, cross guarantee of some kind...thought there was also a second MSD loan in October 2020 secured against the Training Ground although it could all be bundled in and included as one.

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

[Hxj]

45 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Unsure why the club is listed twice in Secured Creditors

There are two separate pre-administration secured loans created on 6 August 2020 and 8 November 2020, the date in the latest report is an error .  The different security held has an impact on what is paid out on the charge.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

The running costs also appear to be remarkably low for a good sized club that has a category 1 academy.

They are quite happy to transfer revenue to the club from Club DCFC, Stadia DCFC and The Derby County FC Academy but the actual running costs- well relative to infrastructure it appears to run on thin air! Of course it's trading receipts only but given that even in the good times, these companies ran at a deficit it's all rather curious.

No rent to Mel Morris either!

For the sake of comparison, the following was shown in the years in which those 3 chose to release accounts...These are small companies so only have to release limited amounts of info.

Club DCFC Limited

As we can see, Club DCFC ran at a deficit of about £2.9m per season/year when averaged albeit the 1st year was a 13 month period.

Stadia DCFC

Again as above, to June 2017 was 13 months. All the same that is an average of about £3.6m per year deficit, indeed the deficit in both of these was higher in Year 2 than 1!

The Derby County FC Academy

Tbh Academy expenditure net of grants received is excluded from FFP. All the same it is not cheap to run!

Seems somewhat strange that the entire running costs are £13.944m in a 6 month period now!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I am interested as to how the costs appear to have fallen to the extent they have. Only £371k in a 6 month period for a Cat. 1 Academy. Although these are cash ins and outs I assume.

I remember for a time they seemed to include income from the subsidiaries while the costs were over at Sevco 5112 Limited but that was up to 2018!

Their running costs were about £75m- the consolidated that is, inclusive of everything from cash and non cash alike- in 2017/18 (Sevco 5112).

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

50 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

Think maybe they are planning to offer HMRC the same as Unsecured Creditors ie 35% in 3 years but tbh no idea...gone a bit quiet on HMRC front hasn't it? I'm speculating a bit.

I did read albeit on Twitter a month or 2 ago that Derby had agreed a 25% or 1/3 with HMRC but surely this would have been trumpeted from the rooftops?

[chinapig]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think maybe they are planning to offer HMRC the same as Unsecured Creditors ie 35% in 3 years but tbh no idea...gone a bit quiet on HMRC front hasn't it? I'm speculating a bit.

I did read albeit on Twitter a month or 2 ago that Derby had agreed a 25% or 1/3 with HMRC but surely this would have been trumpeted from the rooftops?

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

Would have thought so yes. The precise nature of the EFL insolvency policy isn't actually out there in the public domain though, save for snippets that Kieran Maguire found somewhere a few weeks ago- although I cannot find it listed on the EFL site or similar so...

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Either would have other clubs who meet their tax liabilities in full up in arms I would have thought.

So Mr Gould, we are deducting your club 4 points because you broke FFP.  Had you held back the PAYE and NI and VAT you wouldn’t have broken FFP.  Unlucky.

Not gonna wash is it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So Mr Gould, we are deducting your club 4 points because you broke FFP.  Had you held back the PAYE and NI and VAT you wouldn’t have broken FFP.  Unlucky.

Not gonna wash is it.

Indeed. I was under the impression, courtesy of the EFL themselves that the starting point of their Insolvency Policy is that no club should gain an advantage via Insolvency.

Quote

"The EFL’s Insolvency Policy is designed to offer guidance to Clubs on how the board might seek to deal with any Club in administration. That policy, which has been accepted by all 72 Clubs, describes how the Members agreed ‘that the starting point is that no Club should gain (or seek to gain) any advantage within the context of professional football over other Clubs by not paying all its creditors in full at all times.’

From their statement in Jan/Feb time around the time Quantuma were seeking to cram down the Middlesbrough and Wycombe claims.

Any kind of HMRC slashing of monies due would constitute a significant advantage, or could.

Aaaah- I wonder, devil in the detail? Is this specifically pertaining to Football Creditors?

Edited April 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Quantuma and Kirchner seem to have said nothing recently about paying the debt to HMRC. Not so much as a bland "constructive talks are ongoing" statement.

Have I missed something?

You’ve probably missed an “imminently” somewhere there China. 

 

 

[Derby_Ram]

On 20/04/2022 at 12:35, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now Byrne, I have him down a) As a decent RB for a start b) In and around peak years, 29 isn't he- WhoScored says he's made 40 starts which is excellent.

Bielik I guess would be your equivalent of Williams- as in often injured but a good CM all the same, both a similar age although Williams now 25, Bielik 24.

Knight has played 35 Championship games for example- midfield is often the engine room of a side, I would suggest Derby have had more stability in CM than us this season.

Bird- another. 38 starts, 1 sub appearance.

Central defence- Davies 43/43 starts.

On the flipside, Shinnie was injured for a time- and then sold, aforementioned Bielik and Jagielka being pulled out did not help.

I also would suggest that Derby had a weaker squad than last season- or a thinner one anyway, even before the January mini firesale. That's credit to Rooney for getting more points with a thinner squad.

1. Wisdom- Gone
2. Clarke- Strong loanee, gone.
3. Waghorn- Gone
4. Marriott- Gone

Plus January loanees in Mengi, Edmundson, Roberts and Gregory. They in a way replaced players such as Evans, Holmes and Whittaker IIRC?

Talking of Wisdom cash permitting, and obviously his fitness will be shot by not being resigned by Derby, he'd be a useful addition for a Championship club on a free IMO.

Good post.

Focused on the Derby bit as you know much better than me on anything City related.

Byrne - excellent player and despite being diminutive in size is physically strong. Speed, stamina and ability to stay fit.

Bielek - if he didn't have ACL injuries he'd never be injured . He was out for over a year before coming back in Jan but still not up to match speed. A shame if injuries ruin his career.

Knight is durable and played most weeks but don't mistake that with our CM being stable. He's been the sacrificial lamb covering most roles besides his natural CM position. It's been Bird plus one of the rotation of Shinnie, Thompson, Bielek with a touch of Knight and Morrison occasionally deployed in a more defensive role. I've felt for Knight this year.

Of last years loanees none really established themselves with the exception of Clarke so losing Jags was huge in Jan. Wisdom was always expected to be the next one signed by us throughout the first half of the season and Jan....if the embargo was listed.

Interestingly Rooney has already announced tomorrow's team.

A 4-2-3-1 with Stearman in for Cashin and Forsyth in for Buchanan in defence.

Midfield of Bird, Thompson, Ebiowei, Morrison and Louie Watson, with Cybulski upfront for his first start. Definitely an eye on next season leaving Bielek, Plange, Buchanan and Knight out along with the suspended Lawrence. The hope would be most of these would sign a contract if the takeover comes in time.

Unfortunately I think we'll be too powderpuff going forward tomorrow with the absences. We'll be heavily relying on Ebiowei who is the latest 18 year old to excel. If you could combine his skill on the ball with Ebosele's pace and power you'd have some player! 

I think you're liable to turn us over tomorrow given our line up

[Davefevs]

Could Plange’s omission be a case of Palace asking for him not to play now your relegation has been confirmed, e.g. no point risking injury?