The Office (UK): Ipswich Town edition

[Bedred31]

11 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The Lansdowns are the common denominator in our under achievement spanning many years

You could also argue that the Lansdowns are the common denominator in covering a £20m deficit season after season, while rebuilding the stadium and the academy and the training complex. Foreign consortiums , as a rule, don’t do that. But not having a proper CEO worries me. Rich boys are going to want to play with their toys. Having maturity and experience to counterbalance amateur tinkering ( Jon) and inexperience (Manning) is crucial. Otherwise we’re basically Clarkson’s Farm. 

Edited May 5 by Bedred31

[Pezo]

41 minutes ago, Bedred31 said:

You could also argue that the Lansdowns are the common denominator in covering a £20m deficit season after season, while rebuilding the stadium and the academy and the training complex. Foreign consortiums , as a rule, don’t do that. But not having a proper CEO worries me. Rich boys are going to want to play with their toys. Having maturity and experience to counterbalance amateur tinkering ( Jon) and inexperience (Manning) is crucial. Otherwise we’re basically Clarkson’s Farm. 

Covering the £20m loss that they have overseen - hardly doing us a favour, just getting them a bigger share of the club to the point of pretty much owning it outright.

[Pezo]

The statement I remember Lansdown making was that Ashton "was good at representing our position with the EFL".

I always took "ours" in this quote as the Lansdowns not necessarily the football clubs (they are probably one and the same in SL head). One thing I always wanted to know was what is our position with the EFL? Is it that owners shouldn't have to spend so much of there own money?

Basically did SL use Mark Ashton to try and bend the regulatory framework to give us an advantage rather than just trying to get promoted the same way everyone else seems to be able to? Is SL's goal anything other than trying to win promotion, such as reduce costs?

[Major Isewater]

15 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

So where do you think the problem is at City then

 

[Swede]

15 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

The same Paul Cook that is with Chesterfield in non-league? Granted, i know they just got promoted, but lets not pretend he is a good manager - probably could of had Man City’s CEO and he still would of been crap.

Give Ashton his credit. You say not “overplay”  what he’s done at Ipswich, yet he single handedly delivered (McKenna) the reason that they have had back to back promotions - Ashton deserves all the credit possible in the role he is doing in my opinion

I think Fevs is referring to the type of coach Swiss Tony can manipulate in place rather than whether they are any good. He tried it with Holden and found out he was out of his depth. Cook was too knowledgeable and saw through him, in McKenna he found the right fit. There are too many scars here to give him lots of credit. What I would say is that it's a collective & Ipswich Town deserve all of the credit as a whole for a fantastic season and definitely the team of the season to achieve what they have achieved but you just know that a certain Teflon covered reptile will be giving it the big I am and using the opportunity to make all of the self gratification soundbites.

[Calculus]

49 minutes ago, Swede said:

I think Fevs is referring to the type of coach Swiss Tony can manipulate in place rather than whether they are any good. He tried it with Holden and found out he was out of his depth. Cook was too knowledgeable and saw through him, in McKenna he found the right fit. There are too many scars here to give him lots of credit. What I would say is that it's a collective & Ipswich Town deserve all of the credit as a whole for a fantastic season and definitely the team of the season to achieve what they have achieved but you just know that a certain Teflon covered reptile will be giving it the big I am and using the opportunity to make all of the self gratification soundbites.

There's no doubt that Mark Ashton has done a great job at Ipswich - back to back promotions to the Prem is a very rare achievement, so we'll done to him and all at Ipswich.

Remember also that Ashton wasn't sacked by us - he chose to leave for a one league club with what he judged were better prospects. 

So, why didn't he achieve here and why did he prefer to go to League One Ipswich?

There is only one answer and that lies with the owner and his family.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5 by Calculus

[Cannybluff]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The problem with that model / approach is you need top, top, top recruitment and a manager with a football identity to recruit towards.  We didn’t have that.  Luton did.  They exploited a market of undervalued players that fitted their style of football.  You could see clubs like City having a snobbish attitude to buying someone like Elijah Adebayo for example.

Also, assuming you churn those players regularly, you only make a profit against their book value.  That becomes harder the more better established players you buy.  No disrespect to players like Weimann or Hunt, especially Weimann, but you were unlikely to ever get the money back on them.  Their fees were sunk.

you also need a steady stream of Academy players too, because they are pure profit.  You can’t do it all on “buy then sell”.

Someone like SL should know that “having your eggs in one basket” (one method) is poor investment advice.

Squad building is an art.  Very few get it right, very few get the time to get it right.

I agree up to a point. I remember listening to interviews about how we recruit and the process we go through, we obviously thought we were pretty revolutionary in our approach, certainly different to a Luton at that point. At the end of the day, recruitment is hard, nobody wants to sell you a player worth 5m for 1m. 

The signing that sums up that spell for me was eliasson. Seemed like he could be anything, fast, whipped a cross... but never quite had all the ingredients. Traditional scouting was who looks good in their team that might help us be more effective, progressive became who is the fastest, pass completion, entries into the box etc... again I'm not saying either model is better but the progressive seemed more risk/reward than traditional squad building.

It left us in a right mess when the floor fell out of the transfer market so I'm still not convinced how it would've played out had that not happened.

 

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

 

Bang on Major

Over the last couple of decades, we’ve had multiple changes of managers, head coaches, a huge churn of players, coaching staff and even multiple plans and even pillars! 

Only two things haven’t changed ……… our total inability to reach the Premier League and that man in the photo.  In my mind, they are both inextricably linked.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

One key factor is not having your best players cherrypicked by clubs higher up the food chain. Leicester did this because they had the money to fight off raiders. Ipswich did it because they had no stand out individuals that caught the eye of the bottom tier prem clubs. Our academy produces cracking players who we get to rely on  but who invariably leave after 18 months or so. As SL searches for his magic fluke formula, this club needs to be either more ballsy when Bournemouth call, or more anonymous, or spend every penny of sales money wisely, like Brentford. As the third option is v difficult to do, and our academy will keep churning out good young players, we’re going to have to grow a pair when other clubs come sniffing.

This is interesting, albeit Leicester may have breached FFP in the process..EFL wanted them to have to cut in January or face Sanctions this season. We had FFP for a while and we couldn't really turn down.

The loophole there was that they were a relegated club and the PL and EFL begin the process at different stages, a regular Championship club may lack that and clubs in the future may also.

I digress, Ipswich well I look at their squad and there are not many stellar players, good sure but as you say not stellar. Maybe Leif Davis?

Luongo, Morsy, Broadhead, Burns, Chaplin, Hirst- none of these on paper are outstanding, they are players at this level individually with certain ages in some cases, certain levels of achievement in others but nothing amazing etc.

This isn't me being churlish at all, but they have decent players, some of whom in and around peak years but they have outperformed their baseline, Sum >> Parts.

Edited May 5 by Mr Popodopolous

[northsomersetred]

 

[Natchfever]

12 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

You could also argue that the Lansdowns are the common denominator in covering a £20m deficit season after season, while rebuilding the stadium and the academy and the training complex. Foreign consortiums , as a rule, don’t do that. But not having a proper CEO worries me. Rich boys are going to want to play with their toys. Having maturity and experience to counterbalance amateur tinkering ( Jon) and inexperience (Manning) is crucial. Otherwise we’re basically Clarkson’s Farm. 

The Lansdowns (senior) being the cause of that deficit and due to the association with BCFC will recoup much of those losses via property development.

Maybe the forecasted revenue from that tells Lansdown he doesnt need to spend on the football club.

[Major Isewater]

20 hours ago, Calculus said:

So, why didn't he achieve here and why did he prefer to go to League One Ipswich?

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

Awoke this morning to the dulcet, Midlands drone of Mark Ashton trying not to crow on the Today programme sports news at 7.25, and my mind drifted back to the very same sports news (or was it the 8.25?) in May 2008, I remember listening to this as I came out of the shower, and it was either the morning after Palace and reaching Wembley, or just before the final, and our very own SL appearing on the BBC's flagship news and current affairs radio programme, my chest slightly puffing out with prowed - we're on the Today programme. Wow. I don't remember Les Kew on the Today programme, I thought to meself.

Now, of course, I note that Ipswich have their ceo not the owners doing these interviews, unlike Bristol City (maybe we didn't have a ceo in 2008, and Steve said: "Oh, ok: I'll do it this time if I have to, but just this once" ?)

Anyhow, Ashton said that they had decided to "attack the division" this season, and that sounded like Cotts to me summer 2015, trying to sign Andre Gray et al.

Ashton sounded like he'd been enjoying himself, and he didn't say "trust me" once. Hope Sir Steve was still fast asleep in Guernsey and not having his boiled egg with the radio on ....

[Bedred31]

5 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Awoke this morning to the dulcet, Midlands drone of Mark Ashton trying not to crow on the Today programme sports news at 7.25, and my mind drifted back to the very same sports news (or was it the 8.25?) in May 2008, I remember listening to this as I came out of the shower, and it was either the morning after Palace and reaching Wembley, or just before the final, and our very own SL appearing on the BBC's flagship news and current affairs radio programme, my chest slightly puffing out with prowed - we're on the Today programme. Wow. I don't remember Les Kew on the Today programme, I thought to meself.

Now, of course, I note that Ipswich have their ceo not the owners doing these interviews, unlike Bristol City (maybe we didn't have a ceo in 2008, and Steve said: "Oh, ok: I'll do it this time if I have to, but just this once" ?)

Anyhow, Ashton said that they had decided to "attack the division" this season, and that sounded like Cotts to me summer 2015, trying to sign Andre Gray et al.

Ashton sounded like he'd been enjoying himself, and he didn't say "trust me" once. Hope Sir Steve was still fast asleep in Guernsey and not having his boiled egg with the radio on ....

Yes, I woke up to Swiss Tony on the Today programme- cracking start to a Bank Holiday. He also used phrases like “when we came in 2 1/2 - 3 years ago”- as if he was somehow synonymous with the new American owners. I think it was this kind of grandstanding that ultimately p. off SL , and while the consortium will undoubtedly think they picked the right man now, if and when this goes south- and it will- I predict Ipswich fans will be on here conceding that we did warn them.

[Sleepy1968]

50 minutes ago, Bedred31 said:

Yes, I woke up to Swiss Tony on the Today programme- cracking start to a Bank Holiday. He also used phrases like “when we came in 2 1/2 - 3 years ago”- as if he was somehow synonymous with the new American owners. I think it was this kind of grandstanding that ultimately p. off SL , and while the consortium will undoubtedly think they picked the right man now, if and when this goes south- and it will- I predict Ipswich fans will be on here conceding that we did warn them.

They've earned a double promotion, and made a ton of money already (since they sold a proportion of the club off).

I'm not sure what it takes to go south from here, but I think you're clutching at the tiniest of staws here.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just one Ipswich player. Davis an obvious choice but Team >> Sum of their Parts.

[Mr Hankey]

4 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

Yes, I woke up to Swiss Tony on the Today programme- cracking start to a Bank Holiday. He also used phrases like “when we came in 2 1/2 - 3 years ago”- as if he was somehow synonymous with the new American owners. I think it was this kind of grandstanding that ultimately p. off SL , and while the consortium will undoubtedly think they picked the right man now, if and when this goes south- and it will- I predict Ipswich fans will be on here conceding that we did warn them.

Wow……if that is your take from what he has done at Ipswich then thats mental. You seriously think Ipswich fans will be on here saying that we warned them despite back to back promotions to the Prem? 

Lansdown never got pissed off with him by the way, he chose to leave.

I hazard a guess that you are very much in the pro-Lansdown boat.

Edited May 6 by Mr Hankey

[slartibartfast]

14 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

Wow……if that is your take from what he has done at Ipswich then thats mental. You seriously think Ipswich fans will be on here saying that we warned them despite back to back promotions to the Prem? 

Lansdown never got pissed off with him by the way, he chose to leave.

I hazard a guess that you are very much in the pro-Lansdown boat.

I thought he was supposed to be working for us in America but instead schmoozing the yanks and feathering his own nest ?

[Mr Hankey]

1 hour ago, slartibartfast said:

I thought he was supposed to be working for us in America but instead schmoozing the yanks and feathering his own nest ?

Yeah he told the Lansdown’s what they wanted to hear about his American venture, whilst working on his own thing. He never wanted Holden so probably thought “**** it” from there, can’t knock him for it, should always look out for yourself, the Lansdown’s were just too dumb to see it for what it was. 

[Bedred31]

3 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

Wow……if that is your take from what he has done at Ipswich then thats mental. You seriously think Ipswich fans will be on here saying that we warned them despite back to back promotions to the Prem? 

Lansdown never got pissed off with him by the way, he chose to leave.

I hazard a guess that you are very much in the pro-Lansdown boat.

I don’t entirely buy the Ipswich rags to riches narrative. Ipswich have signed more than 50 players (obviously not including returning loanees) in the 2.5 years Ashton’s been there. Sure, many are cheap transfers, but they all involve contracts, wages and fees to agents. Pretty reminiscent of the uncontrolled, unnecessary incomings he masterminded under LJ, which left us in such poor shape after he left and which has restricted our dealings for these last few years. That’s before he gets his teeth into the premiership pot of gold. He was full of ‘process’ and ‘structure’ on the radio this morning, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Ipswich now do a Forest. Ashton is basically the CEO equivalent of Harry Rednap- effective at what he does but what he does cannot exist without high volume transfer turnover. I’m not a disciple of SL but he’s not a commercial idiot. I wish we had a competent CEO but SL’s experience is evidently that it’s preferable to have no CEO than one like Ashton.

[bpexile]

9 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

Yes, I woke up to Swiss Tony on the Today programme- cracking start to a Bank Holiday. He also used phrases like “when we came in 2 1/2 - 3 years ago”- as if he was somehow synonymous with the new American owners. I think it was this kind of grandstanding that ultimately p. off SL , and while the consortium will undoubtedly think they picked the right man now, if and when this goes south- and it will- I predict Ipswich fans will be on here conceding that we did warn them.

Just to show MA for what he is, I don't wish it on the fans, we know how much it hurts.

Edited May 6 by bpexile

[Bedred31]

One point Ashton made which was worth noting was that Ipswich had sold 60,000 replica shirts this season. Given our shops chronic inability to muster even basic stock levels, I’d be amazed if City had sold 6,000. I’d love to know the number? What about a shirt- sales Championship league table as a means of forcing improvement by embarrassment? 

[TammyAB]

Can we delete this embarrassing 93-page thread now?

[luke_bristol]

8 hours ago, TammyAB said:

Can we delete this embarrassing 93-page thread now?

Why? He left our club in the shit through his reckless gambling, the fact he bet the house on black with Ipswich and it happened to come off doesn’t make his legacy here any less damaging.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, TammyAB said:

Can we delete this embarrassing 93-page thread now?

[Southend Blue]

I didn't start it, nothing to do with me.   I just like to talk about football and there's a name here relevant to both club sides that you can add further input to when the time arises.         It's been mentioned at length but once again to reiterate it seems Mark Ashton isn't quite the devil incarnate some would believe.      Some people don't like him, they hold the name in contempt and can see only evil and while can understand those philosophies it's fair to say he's been part of a new major success with us and an integral part of the resurgence since coming over and over the past 2 years.    I suppose he's been kept on a tighter rein at Portman Road, a whole different collection of people to work with or even to be kept in check.     I read only negative reviews when he came over and was sceptical about what we were letting ourselves in for, but fact remains he's proven a key figure in our ability to make it back or in us becoming a recognised club name once again.

So we're promoted, first time at top level since 2002.    Yes it's taken long enough and we've had to endure some pretty horrendous years and seasons and while the entire time spent away and years of decline can't be easily overlooked or never properly redeemed it's just a relief if not pleasing to know we're going to feature at the highest level once again.     Can we stay there or fall back at the first attempt, it's not so easy to answer but the infrastructure is now in place to really make a go of it but should McKenna leave any time soon and some of our most prized players choose to move on we could just as easily fall back into disrepair.       Back in 2000 we were promoted too albeit by way of the play-offs and then went on to finish 5th in the Premier League (a cup semi-final too for good measure) but can that happen this time around.    Somehow I think not.       All depends how we adjust to being a part of it once again for well over 20 years and keeping hold of the most valuable assets within the club set-up, McKenna included.  

[Silvio Dante]

18 hours ago, Bedred31 said:

One point Ashton made which was worth noting was that Ipswich had sold 60,000 replica shirts this season. Given our shops chronic inability to muster even basic stock levels, I’d be amazed if City had sold 6,000. I’d love to know the number? What about a shirt- sales Championship league table as a means of forcing improvement by embarrassment? 

To be fair, the shirts have sold so many because insipid minstrel Ed Sheerans tour is on the front of them, and morons who think “Galway Girl” is the height of modern culture have been buying them. I don’t dislike Ipswich, one of my best mates supports them, but I actively despise that talentless waster whose fans don’t even realise he’s belittling them in “Castle on the Hill”.

I’d sooner sell no shirts than have Sheeran types anywhere near our football club.

Edited May 7 by Silvio Dante

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Southend Blue said:

I didn't start it, nothing to do with me.   I just like to talk about football and there's a name here relevant to both club sides that you can add further input to when the time arises.         It's been mentioned at length but once again to reiterate it seems Mark Ashton isn't quite the devil incarnate some would believe.      Some people don't like him, they hold the name in contempt and can see only evil and while can understand those philosophies it's fair to say he's been part of a new major success with us and an integral part of the resurgence since coming over and over the past 2 years.    I suppose he's been kept on a tighter rein at Portman Road, a whole different collection of people to work with or even to be kept in check.     I read only negative reviews when he came over and was sceptical about what we were letting ourselves in for, but fact remains he's proven a key figure in our ability to make it back or in us becoming a recognised club name once again.

So we're promoted, first time at top level since 2002.    Yes it's taken long enough and we've had to endure some pretty horrendous years and seasons and while the entire time spent away and years of decline can't be easily overlooked or never properly redeemed it's just a relief if not pleasing to know we're going to feature at the highest level once again.     Can we stay there or fall back at the first attempt, it's not so easy to answer but the infrastructure is now in place to really make a go of it but should McKenna leave any time soon and some of our most prized players choose to move on we could just as easily fall back into disrepair.       Back in 2000 we were promoted too albeit by way of the play-offs and then went on to finish 5th in the Premier League (a cup semi-final too for good measure) but can that happen this time around.    Somehow I think not.       All depends how we adjust to being a part of it once again for well over 20 years and keeping hold of the most valuable assets within the club set-up, McKenna included.  

Thing is, you and others are trying to rationalise success at your club (Ipswich) to absolve him of anything bad at Bristol City, and prior to here, at Oxford and Watford.

Like a lot of debates on OTIB, it’s perfectly reasonable to take each in isolation.  He can be the devil incarnate here, and the messiah at Ipswich.

He took advantage here, is the politest way I can put it.  It makes little difference to me that others allowed that, it highlights his character flaw that he did as he did.  It makes no difference whether reined in Ipswich that he’s gone on to do a good / fantastic job for you.

Its about what he did at Bristol City that counts for me and some others.

Your view is fine to hold btw, it’s just not mine.

(congrats on promo too, hugely deserved)

[maxjak]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Thing is, you and others are trying to rationalise success at your club (Ipswich) to absolve him of anything bad at Bristol City, and prior to here, at Oxford and Watford.

Like a lot of debates on OTIB, it’s perfectly reasonable to take each in isolation.  He can be the devil incarnate here, and the messiah at Ipswich.

He took advantage here, is the politest way I can put it.  It makes little difference to me that others allowed that, it highlights his character flaw that he did as he did.  It makes no difference whether reined in Ipswich that he’s gone on to do a good / fantastic job for you.

Its about what he did at Bristol City that counts for me and some others.

Your view is fine to hold btw, it’s just not mine.

(congrats on promo too, hugely deserved)

Quite right ............Ipswich were smart enough to curb his excess's and keep a level of control on his ego and his propensity for self-aggrandisment ?...    He is obviously good at his job given the right environment and circumstances.   Unfortunately he was given far too much free reign at City to unleash his dark side, and make some  colossal blunders, which was down to SL Allowing him to righteously screw our budget and display his flaws?   I read today that 8 of the team that beat Exeter 6-0 at the end of season 22-23 were in the team that faced Blackburn on Saturday..pretty.remarkable.....also Mckenna spent 5 mill this season.  So it proves that if a team is motivated, organised and injected with confidence, anything can be achieved?                

[Super]

2 hours ago, luke_bristol said:

Why? He left our club in the shit through his reckless gambling, the fact he bet the house on black with Ipswich and it happened to come off doesn’t make his legacy here any less damaging.

Blame the people whose money he was gambling with.