Cooper and Forest

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, tin said:

Exactly right, and as most people know our owner isn't a football person and won't employ a head of recruitment, sporting director, director of football or any other senior executive. It all currently falls on Pearson's shoulders. 

While they're streets ahead of us off the pitch, I'd imagine it's shit or bust for them this year financially. If they fail to go up this year, I'd expect their finances to be in a worst position than ours. 

Don't let those facts get in the way of the OP's anti-NP agenda, though. 

I guess they sell Johnson in the summer if they don’t go up.

I’m really intrigued to see their finances for 20/21.  They extended their financial year from May 31 to June 30, so don’t have to submit until end of March.

Last accounts:

2018 was a £6M loss.  With Covid and FFP allowances, they are gonna be ok for this season’s cycle, but next season looks worse than us.

 

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Luton, Preston, Coventry and Blackpool shouldn't be above us on squad strength.

We have a top 10 squad in my opinion, yours differs.

I agree on Blackpool.  I disagree on the other three, much as it pains me to say.  They have constructed squads better than ours through excellent recruitment and development and a cohesive football plan.  I think you’re using club size as a proxy for your expectations of squad strength.  Those clubs are out of their forming and storming development stage.  Preston hit a blip post Alex Neil, but didn’t saddle themselves with “cost”.  Will be interesting to see how Lowe does.  Luton and Coventry are well down their road, and are reaping the benefits.  Cheaply acquired squad does mean weaker squad, just as much as expensively acquired squad means it’s good.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Davefevs

[TheReds]

13 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Who in Lutons squad would walk into a top 10 team ?

All of them, as they are 9th in the League.

[underhanded]

I'm not anti-Nige, but the aversion to loan signings does seem a little problematic to me (that is if he really is the one against them, I think we're basing this on one or two interview comments).

Forest, and others before them, have brought in some very handy loan signings this year, just look at Djed Spence and Zinckernagal to name just two. I know we may be more tightly restricted on wages and who we can get, but squad depth has been an issue for us this season, so why not bring at least one or two in? The Jan window showed there were enough young prem players available on loan, but we (as far as we know) did not move for any.

COYR

[Monkeh]

16 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Luton, Preston, Coventry and Blackpool shouldn't be above us on squad strength.

We have a top 10 squad in my opinion, yours differs.

Who in Lutons squad would walk into a top 10 team ?

Yes they should they all have better squads then us

[tin]

7 minutes ago, underhanded said:

I'm not anti-Nige, but the aversion to loan signings does seem a little problematic to me (that is if he really is the one against them, I think we're basing this on one or two interview comments).

Forest, and others before them, have brought in some very handy loan signings this year, just look at Djed Spence and Zinckernagal to name just two. I know we may be more tightly restricted on wages and who we can get, but squad depth has been an issue for us this season, so why not bring at least one or two in? The Jan window showed there were enough young prem players available on loan, but we (as far as we know) did not move for any.

COYR

With loan signings, though, there's increasingly a loan fee, agents' fees, and a commitment of covering up to 100% of the loanee's wages. Prime example: Andreas Velicka joined us on loan from Rangers under GJ and got injured five minutes into his debut. Those five minutes on the pitch cost us around £500k. 

I don't buy Nige being averse to loan signings. He's said any player has to be better than what we have, be affordable, and that he prefers to get people in permanently. He's signed plenty of loanees in the past. Forest have pushed the boat out with those loanees, SL didn't want to that and that's the bottom line IMO. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by tin

[GrahamC]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess they sell Johnson in the summer if they don’t go up.

I’m really intrigued to see their finances for 20/21.  They extended their financial year from May 31 to June 30, so don’t have to submit until end of March.

Last accounts:

2018 was a £6M loss.  With Covid and FFP allowances, they are gonna be ok for this season’s cycle, but next season looks worse than us.

 

Think the Joao Carvalho transfer will be used to try & cover a fair bit of this, £12m initial outlay, then sold to the other club Marinakis owns, bet he is shown as being sold for circa £15m myself.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

Cooper doing very well isn't he.

Just like that !

[Monkeh]

18 minutes ago, underhanded said:

I'm not anti-Nige, but the aversion to loan signings does seem a little problematic to me (that is if he really is the one against them, I think we're basing this on one or two interview comments).

Forest, and others before them, have brought in some very handy loan signings this year, just look at Djed Spence and Zinckernagal to name just two. I know we may be more tightly restricted on wages and who we can get, but squad depth has been an issue for us this season, so why not bring at least one or two in? The Jan window showed there were enough young prem players available on loan, but we (as far as we know) did not move for any.

COYR

He isnt against loan signings he's against the cost of loan signings these days,

For example we had to pay a fair wedge for Tammy, we helped his development but saw no return on our investment,

That's what I believe he is against, he'd rather play alex Scott then loan in Scott hogan 

[PHILINFRANCE]

13 minutes ago, tin said:

With loan signings, though, there's increasingly a loan fee, agents' fees, and a commitment of covering up to 100% of the loanee's wages. Prime example: Andreas Velicka joined us on loan from Rangers under GJ and got injured five minutes into his debut. Those five minutes on the pitch cost us around £500k. 

I don't buy Nige being averse to loan signings. He's said any player has to be better than what we have, be affordable, and that he prefers to get people in permanently. He's signed plenty of loanees in the past. Forest have pushed the boat out with those loanees, SL didn't want to that and that's the bottom line IMO. 

As you say, I am not convinced NP is averse to loan signings per se, but what would be the point this season?

I really don’t think we are in any danger of relegation, and surely even the most optimistic amongst us don’t really think we will threaten the playoffs.

A loan signing, therefore, would just have been a waste of money, unless it was a promising youngster with an option to buy.

[Waconda]

27 minutes ago, TheReds said:

All of them, as they are 9th in the League.

Exactaly.

[Waconda]

25 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Yes they should they all have better squads then us

And that is where we differ.

[Davefevs]

47 minutes ago, underhanded said:

I'm not anti-Nige, but the aversion to loan signings does seem a little problematic to me (that is if he really is the one against them, I think we're basing this on one or two interview comments).

Forest, and others before them, have brought in some very handy loan signings this year, just look at Djed Spence and Zinckernagal to name just two. I know we may be more tightly restricted on wages and who we can get, but squad depth has been an issue for us this season, so why not bring at least one or two in? The Jan window showed there were enough young prem players available on loan, but we (as far as we know) did not move for any.

COYR

40 minutes ago, tin said:

I don't buy Nige being averse to loan signings. He's said any player has to be better than what we have, be affordable, and that he prefers to get people in permanently. He's signed plenty of loanees in the past. Forest have pushed the boat out with those loanees, SL didn't want to that and that's the bottom line IMO. 

26 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

He isnt against loan signings he's against the cost of loan signings these days,

For example we had to pay a fair wedge for Tammy, we helped his development but saw no return on our investment,

That's what I believe he is against, he'd rather play alex Scott then loan in Scott hogan 

I think the other addition to all of your excellent points is even if you “loan with option to buy”, you aren’t improving your squad (generalisation), just making it permanent.

We saw that with Dasilva, Kalas and Palmer.  We loaned them, then bought them (£14m) to standstill in effect. You could argue it actually took us backwards. I think Nige would rather identify the right player and get them in instead.

[Sir Geoff]

Imo it is not fair to compare NP with Cooper. Surely if a fair comparison is to be made it should be with Houghton, whom a huge majority on here wanted to be appointed after LJ.

Fwiw Swansea fans never took to Cooper (possibly because of his tenuous Cardiff links, but it I think it went deeper than that) 

[Simon bristol]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Surprise, surprise. Moron makes moronic comparison. 

Its not moronic, and you are out of line. Some bloke has a different opinion to you, thats all. Forest are on a hell of a run while the good ship bristol city stumbles along with top earning players rarely playing and most of our midfield being injured, and no one able to organise and defend a set piece, so that business as usual for us.

 

[samo II]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Yes, we have a top 10 squad for sure, injuries have been too regular (once again) and allowances have to be made for that.

Really? I don’t think we have a top half squad, let alone top ten - some of our best performers are raw youth players and plenty of our experienced players haven’t performed at a championship level for two managers or more.

I truthfully cannot see how you’d put together a top ten line up, let alone match day squad from what we have available.

[Sheltons Army]

4 hours ago, VT05763 said:

With effectively the same bunch of players, Cooper managed to coax more out of the group and a superb run of form followed.

How 'magician' Steve Cooper transformed struggling Nottingham Forest to FA Cup heroes (msn.com)

Another little sly dig at Pearson I guess.  Prinny

 

 

Cooper has injected a bounce but backed heavily financially , in signings n loans

Two different jobs and two different expectations (Amongst the grounded anyway)

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, TheReds said:

All of them, as they are 9th in the League.

Superb...........that made me chuckle..........can't beat popping a bubble?

[Merrick's Marvels]

48 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Its not moronic, and you are out of line. Some bloke has a different opinion to you, thats all. Forest are on a hell of a run while the good ship bristol city stumbles along with top earning players rarely playing and most of our midfield being injured, and no one able to organise and defend a set piece, so that business as usual for us.

 

The continual anti-Pearson jibes, with no logic to back it up, is moronic.

I'm ever so sorry if you're offended by me calling a spade a spade.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[maxjak]

Forest are obviously rolling the dice this season, if they don't go up, they just may have FFP problems?   It helps that they have 5 players in on loan, whereas NP loathes loans?   Good luck to them, but not so sure that all that stardust sprinkling over The City Ground.....will end up attracting Tinkerbell? 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

He isnt against loan signings he's against the cost of loan signings these days,

For example we had to pay a fair wedge for Tammy, we helped his development but saw no return on our investment,

That's what I believe he is against, he'd rather play alex Scott then loan in Scott hogan 

And when the loans dissapear it’s a rebuild

I agree, as long as we are not in danger of relegation , much better financially , and in regard of long term progression , give the exciting young ones experience 

Whether you finish 7th or 20th is somewhat irrelevant come August

Loans are a serious consideration if some added extra is required to stay up , or go up

If you are almost certain to finish 7th-20th , virtually pointless unless you are wanting a close look at a player with a serious view to signing in the summer

[underhanded]

@Davefevs @Monkeh @tin all great points, and you're probably right, there is plenty of example, throughout the championship, of what are expensive loan signings failing to make an impact.

I guess the relative poor decision making the club has made in recent year that grates!

[Sleepy1968]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If this is however “isn’t Cooper doing well, Nige should be doing better”, then I don’t think you are comparing apples with apples.

Maybe a Cox's Orange Pippin verses a Royal Gala?

[Monkeh]

28 minutes ago, underhanded said:

@Davefevs @Monkeh @tin all great points, and you're probably right, there is plenty of example, throughout the championship, of what are expensive loan signings failing to make an impact.

I guess the relative poor decision making the club has made in recent year that grates!

Yep, that's about the gist of it,

If we hadn't of pissed money up against the wall while ashton and johnson played football manager with a real club then it would be different today 

[GrahamC]

Must admit to not following Forest’s transfer dealings closely so I have just checked.

They signed 4 players in the January window, some this “effectively the same group of players” stuff is nonsense, isn’t it?

[Kid in the Riot]

8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Must admit to not following Forest’s transfer dealings closely so I have just checked.

They signed 4 players in the January window, some this “effectively the same group of players” stuff is nonsense, isn’t it?

Including Sam Surridge for £2.2m from Stoke City. 

Funny how the OP didn't post this praise last Monday. Forest had just lost in the league to....Cardiff City. 

[Fuber]

4 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Yes, we have a top 10 squad for sure, injuries have been too regular (once again) and allowances have to be made for that.

Not been a disaster but we should be doing better with the resources available. Just my opinion.

Barring a small handful of players (two of which is consistently injured) who are champ standard much of this squad are young (and the inconsistencies relating to that) or unproven/not good enough for the Championship in so far.

In what universe is this squad top 10?!

[TheReds]

5 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Barring a small handful of players (two of which is consistently injured) who are champ standard much of this squad are young (and the inconsistencies relating to that) or unproven/not good enough for the Championship in so far.

In what universe is this squad top 10?!

It's in the Universe where you try and convince yourself and others that it is a top 10 squad (simply because you dislike the manager), therefore when it isn't in the top 10 you feel you have built up the right to have a pop at the manager at EVERY single opportunity, going as far as even mentioning/comparing other clubs and managers to us. Conveniently forgetting the fact they are in a completely different situation on and off the field - but again trying to convince yourself and others that we are somehow massively underachieving simply due to the manager.

[TheReds]

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Exactaly.

 

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

And that is where we differ.

You've lost me now. You were basically questioning what Luton players would get into a top 10 team, even though they are all in one as they are 9th, and now we differ to teams above us because they have better squads than us, but you say we should be in the top 10 even though we have an inferior squad to the teams above us??

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

5 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Yes, we have a top 10 squad for sure, injuries have been too regular (once again) and allowances have to be made for that.

Not been a disaster but we should be doing better with the resources available. Just my opinion.

No chance Top 10.