Danny Wilson was City's last 'proper' manager - discuss.

[cidered abroad]

4 hours ago, Logical-City said:

I’m not sure how he could tarnish it every manager since Gary has fed off the belief and appetite he installed in our club ,fan base and chairman! We still sing bounce around the ground and up until recently we always believe 

Im not sure how 2 10th place finishes can be seen as failure after almost a decade in the league below. We are a bigger club now than we were in 2008 and that’s because Gary kept us competitive for 2 seasons after that play off season. In the old Ashton Gate against the clubs we were competing with what did we expect? Who could we have signed?

Doomed to fail should have left us when he was on the up was his only mistake.

Johnson senior has only ever been at one Championship club and the achievement of qualifying for play offs was, IMO, a one season wonder. In the seasons that followed, it went downhill because he could not cope with better quality players using his mode of man management and tactics.

His son also feasted on the side left to him by Steve Cotterill. Yes there were good spells but every full season that he was here, we had to suffer long periods of misery; eh, 11 points from 66 on offer. Neither Johnson would, IMO, come anywhere the top half a dozen of City managers since 1950.

Then when he left, the CEO clown installed a decent coach as manager. The two positions are totally different, so it was hardly Holden's fault.

Hence the shambles that we were left with. Thanks to SL for finally appointing a proper, proven manager of players.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Shame about virtually all the other 50 odd eh

Id call that severe clutching at straws tbh

If by some miracle make the Premier League , I don’t think it will be down to Johnson in any way shape or form 

Weimann very good buy , Bentley very good , JD potentially

Just a shame he couldn’t get much out of them and it’s required a decent manager to do so

 

Wells is coming good finally too albeit a small sample size after so so ratios in 2019-20 and 2020-21 and nothing much at all last season, but I think a lot comes down to your last line. Agree too on the churn under him, this was a big problem I had. A fully fit Kalas too I can see as an asset.

I think that a range of players who flopped or flattered to deceive under Johnson would have done better under NP.

Weimann is a big example, see also DaSilva's improvement this season. Wells has been great the last few weeks, Massengo we've seem some very good things from but needed more consistently- is he 20 now?

Anyway yeah. Magnússon I believe had more, either as a narrow LB or LCB- as in NP would have got more from him over time, and he was actually rather good or useful at least in the Cup and League run.

Benkovic we saw was better under Holden than under Johnson, Henriksen I believe was capable of better than we saw...if managed correctly. His fitness and lack of game time was an issue granted. I always get a certain view too that we never saw the best of Nagy, injuries and certain tactical setups didn't help player or team.

Be it man management, tactics, a lack of clear plan or structure I think Johnson failed to get the best out of a range of players. Plenty of failed signings too of course and the injuries surely screwed over a good few and screwed us over in the process. Doesn't matter how a good player might be, if regularly injured then...

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Riaz said:

People say this, but it isnt true - he sold way more than he spent. He kept losing players, who were sold and spent money to replace them.

1st bold bit - If you want a simple, players bought versus players sold during his tenure you will see something around the following:

• Players bought - £61.600m
• Players sold (minus sell ons to former clubs) - £79.400m - that obviously includes Pack, Flint, Bryan and Reid and Kodjia, who were all here before he came.

2nd bold bit - his record of replacing them (whether it was MA deciding them if not) is not so glorious

• Players bought - £61.600m
• Players sold (minus sell ons to former clubs) - £32.400m
• plus those Players he bought that are still here, e.g. Bentley, Dasilva, Kalas, Wells, Massengo, Weimann (I don’t think you get £28.8m for them to square off the spend)

Now, I have a view, but in this case I’m just providing some reasonably accurate transfer fee info that paints two sides of the coin.  But I think it depends how you frame your argument which side you (or anyone else) decides to take.

FWIW I think using “net spend” is a bit of a futile argument, but that’s just me.  I think the boundaries of who you include, who you don’t is very subjective.  Nor does it cover wages, agent fees, signing on fees, let alone the cost of the 15 loans we had in that period either.

 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Wells is coming good finally too albeit a small sample size after so so ratios in 2019-20 and 2020-21 and nothing much at all last season, but I think a lot comes down to your last line. Agree too on the churn under him, this was a big problem I had. A fully fit Kalas too I can see as an asset.

I think that a range of players who flopped or flattered to deceive under Johnson would have done better under NP.

Weimann is a big example, see also DaSilva's improvement this season. Wells has been great the last few weeks, Massengo we've seem some very good things from but needed more consistently- is he 20 now?

Be it man management, tactics, a lack of clear plan or structure I think Johnson failed to get the best out of a range of players. Plenty of failed signings too of course and the injuries surely screwed over a good few and screwed us over in the process. Doesn't matter how a good player might be, if regularly injured then...

Undoubtedly under Nige and his coaches they would have developed far better essentially because Nige is a proper manager who has all the skills necessary to get the best out of not just players but all the staff at AG.

As a player Pearson was a leader and captain of the Owls who took them to winning the old League Cup as was and even today the Wednesday fans remember him very affectionately.

He’s always been a guy who earns respect - not something that can be said about either of the Johnsons or Cotterill for that matter and Danny Wilson had the same qualities and I maintain that DW and Nige were proper managers and it’s no coincidence that the two of them were team mates at Sheffield Wednesday.

 

[eardun]

5 hours ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Failed to get us out of Div 3 - massive flop I’m afraid

Agree. Jordan, GJ and Cotterill all got us promoted from Div 3 in a lot less time than Wilson had. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, eardun said:

Agree. Jordan, GJ and Cotterill all got us promoted from Div 3 in a lot less time than Wilson had. 

How long was Ward here? He also took us up but was before a my time a little, indeed I just about remember his final weeks here- took under 4 years I expect.

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, eardun said:

Agree. Jordan, GJ and Cotterill all got us promoted from Div 3 in a lot less time than Wilson had. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How long was Ward here? He also took us up but was before a my time a little, indeed I just about remember his final weeks here- took under 4 years I expect.

I was going to say - and John Ward , often overlooked and doesn’t get the praise he should 

[eardun]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How long was Ward here? He also took us up but was before a my time a little, indeed I just about remember his final weeks here- took under 4 years I expect.

Yes you can add Ward to that list too. Wilson had 4 seasons to do it and failed; most of these managers did it in their first full season (I think it was second full season for Jordan). 

[2015]

29 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Johnson senior has only ever been at one Championship club and the achievement of qualifying for play offs was, IMO, a one season wonder. In the seasons that followed, it went downhill because he could not cope with better quality players using his mode of man management and tactics.

His son also feasted on the side left to him by Steve Cotterill. Yes there were good spells but every full season that he was here, we had to suffer long periods of misery; eh, 11 points from 66 on offer. Neither Johnson would, IMO, come anywhere the top half a dozen of City managers since 1950.

Then when he left, the CEO clown installed a decent coach as manager. The two positions are totally different, so it was hardly Holden's fault.

Hence the shambles that we were left with. Thanks to SL for finally appointing a proper, proven manager of players.

 

Quite right. I think there is a real split in the fanbase with re Johnsons, there is the cultish group who love Jr and the nostalgic ones who love GJ but forget about the endless boring 1-1 draws in 08/09 and 09/10.

[Galley is our king]

28 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Undoubtedly under Nige and his coaches they would have developed far better essentially because Nige is a proper manager who has all the skills necessary to get the best out of not just players but all the staff at AG.

As a player Pearson was a leader and captain of the Owls who took them to winning the old League Cup as was and even today the Wednesday fans remember him very affectionately.

He’s always been a guy who earns respect - not something that can be said about either of the Johnsons or Cotterill for that matter and Danny Wilson had the same qualities and I maintain that DW and Nige were proper managers and it’s no coincidence that the two of them were team mates at Sheffield Wednesday.

 

In which case why didn't Wilson develop his players and gain promotion from the THIRD division?

Look, you can have a love in with Wilson all you like but as the vast majority of posts on here will say he failed, nice bloke but failed.

[bcfcredandwhite]

From purely a footballing league position achievement at BS3 taken in isolation, I think it's fair to compare Wilson with Cotts and possibly Gary Johnson, but not Lee Johnson, Dean Holden or Nigel Pearson.

Using that criteria, Cotts was better than Wilson in that he achieved promotion with us whereas DW couldn't.

Gary however, got us promoted from L1 AND continued the momentum with us challenging at the top end of the Championship too - something that neither Cotts nor Wilson could.

Lee Johnson, Deano and Nigel Pearson only managed (NP IS still managing of course) us in the Championship, so it's difficult to compare IMHO - the jobs they did with 'debatable' success of a greater or lesser degree are too different from Wilson's. They started with us in the Championship and all kept us in the Championship - and were sacked without taking us down.

It gets more complicated if you take finance into consideration - who gained the highest positive climb in league places per £1 spent across ALL the leagues with us - I think if that's the equation then Terry Cooper would be right up there and Lee Johnson would be way down the list - but if you do that then you will need to compare the respective player purchase costs and wage markets for all the different eras and the fiscal state of the nation in general - it becomes VERY complicated.

This is of course only comparing managers' achievements whilst with Bristol City. It could be argued from a neutral fan or pundit's perspective that Danny Wilson is better than all the others I've mentioned (apart from Nige) on the back of his achievement in getting Barnsley to the Premiership. Nige of course did it with Leicester, but neither Gary Johnson, Lee Johnson, Cotts or Deano have EVER taken a team up to the Prem. 

It's all lies, damned lies and statistics - with a large helping of personal preference for one's favourite manager 

 

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Quite right. I think there is a real split in the fanbase with re Johnsons, there is the cultish group who love Jr and the nostalgic ones who love GJ but forget about the endless boring 1-1 draws in 08/09 and 09/10.

I certainly don’t forget dreary crap GJ served up…………… That turgid and pedestrian style along with his tendency to irritate and call out players and waffle in his interviews whilst laughing at his own jokes, saying nothing meaningful are all reasons why I never rated him.

These days he’s managing at the appropriate level for his skill set.

[Galley is our king]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

I certainly don’t forget dreary crap GJ served up…………… That turgid and pedestrian style along with his tendency to irritate and call out players and waffle in his interviews whilst laughing at his own jokes, saying nothing meaningful are all reasons why I never rated him.

These days he’s managing at the appropriate level for his skill set.

Oh and the fact he had you in his office and you totally bottled it when he asked you if you were Robbored on OTIB!

Courage of your convictions? I think not....

[2015]

7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I certainly don’t forget dreary crap GJ served up…………… That turgid and pedestrian style along with his tendency to irritate and call out players and waffle in his interviews whilst laughing at his own jokes, saying nothing meaningful are all reasons why I never rated him.

These days he’s managing at the appropriate level for his skill set.

Look as much as I found his last few years very boring and dull to watch, you can't ignore how he overachieved with us in the beginning and took Yeovil to the Championship.

He suited clubs who had a backs against the wall mentality and could overachieve with them. He was generally a decent manager, Yeovil scored 90 goals in League 2 in 04/05 as well. The game has moved on though since he hit his peak and his man management wouldn't work nowadays but he was certainly better than non league level

[bcfcredandwhite]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Johnson senior has only ever been at one Championship club and the achievement of qualifying for play offs was, IMO, a one season wonder. In the seasons that followed, it went downhill because he could not cope with better quality players using his mode of man management and tactics.

His son also feasted on the side left to him by Steve Cotterill. Yes there were good spells but every full season that he was here, we had to suffer long periods of misery; eh, 11 points from 66 on offer. Neither Johnson would, IMO, come anywhere the top half a dozen of City managers since 1950.

Then when he left, the CEO clown installed a decent coach as manager. The two positions are totally different, so it was hardly Holden's fault.

Hence the shambles that we were left with. Thanks to SL for finally appointing a proper, proven manager of players.

 

He also took Yeovil to the Championship and managed them there. They were higher than any of the other West Country sides at that time - higher than us.

Ultimately he couldn't keep them up there, but that was an unbelievable achievement. Look at Yeovil now.
 

[RedZepperin]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Undoubtedly under Nige and his coaches they would have developed far better essentially because Nige is a proper manager who has all the skills necessary to get the best out of not just players but all the staff at AG.

and it’s no coincidence that the two of them were team mates at Sheffield Wednesday.

 

Actually, it is a coincidence.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

9 hours ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Managers, historically here have needed a nasty streak in them to get success here.

I didnt see that in danny,

JJ Gj and nige, i see it.

I do wonder with Johnson Snr if it was a real grande he had in the dressing room.  He wasn't very threatening was he really. 

[Robbored]

12 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Look as much as I found his last few years very boring and dull to watch, you can't ignore how he overachieved with us in the beginning and took Yeovil to the Championship.

He suited clubs who had a backs against the wall mentality and could overachieve with them. He was generally a decent manager, Yeovil scored 90 goals in League 2 in 04/05 as well. The game has moved on though since he hit his peak and his man management wouldn't work nowadays but he was certainly better than non league level

‘Overachieved’ is the ideal word to describe GJ - in fact you’re right that his style of man management wouldn’t be tolerated in the Championship or L1 these days.

He’s managing players these days who probably haven’t experienced many other managerial styles in their careers and are therefore likely to put up with GJs vocabulary and behaviour - they may even think that it’s way every manager goes about his job.

[Logical-City]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Johnson senior has only ever been at one Championship club and the achievement of qualifying for play offs was, IMO, a one season wonder. In the seasons that followed, it went downhill because he could not cope with better quality players using his mode of man management and tactics.

His son also feasted on the side left to him by Steve Cotterill. Yes there were good spells but every full season that he was here, we had to suffer long periods of misery; eh, 11 points from 66 on offer. Neither Johnson would, IMO, come anywhere the top half a dozen of City managers since 1950.

Then when he left, the CEO clown installed a decent coach as manager. The two positions are totally different, so it was hardly Holden's fault.

Hence the shambles that we were left with. Thanks to SL for finally appointing a proper, proven manager of players.

 

But why choose to you ignore the fact that we were in League 1 for nine years and within 4 years we’re automatically promoted in a play off final and the next season 10th ? That’s not a one season wonder and his son has FA to do with his successful 4 years in charge… he took the Peterborough Job months after leaving us when they were relegated was sacked when they were top 6 a job he didn’t need to nor should he have taken after his spell with us then he got Yeovil to the Championship before things got stale and the squad needed changing
Enough said on this by me now I feel I have made an obvious case but haters gonna hate 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Logical-City

[Galley is our king]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

‘Overachieved’ is the ideal word to describe GJ - in fact you’re right that his style of man management wouldn’t be tolerated in the Championship or L1 these days.

He’s managing players these days who probably haven’t experienced many other managerial styles in their careers and are therefore likely to put up with GJs vocabulary and behaviour - they may even think that it’s way every manager goes about his job.

Well if he "overachieved" then Wilson definitely underachieved 

 

[Sheltons Army]

33 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Look as much as I found his last few years very boring and dull to watch, you can't ignore how he overachieved with us in the beginning and took Yeovil to the Championship.

He suited clubs who had a backs against the wall mentality and could overachieve with them. He was generally a decent manager, Yeovil scored 90 goals in League 2 in 04/05 as well. The game has moved on though since he hit his peak and his man management wouldn't work nowadays but he was certainly better than non league level

 

33 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

He also took Yeovil to the Championship and managed them there. They were higher than any of the other West Country sides at that time - higher than us.

Ultimately he couldn't keep them up there, but that was an unbelievable achievement. Look at Yeovil now.
 

Excellent posts 

* If you filled your trousers in front of 5’7 Gary Johnson , you’d have bitterness for your humiliation too !

Mr Robinson and Ian Gay both known of by many supporters , but for reasons I wouldn’t want to be 

 

[Logical-City]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

Quite right. I think there is a real split in the fanbase with re Johnsons, there is the cultish group who love Jr and the nostalgic ones who love GJ but forget about the endless boring 1-1 draws in 08/09 and 09/10.

Better that than 3-0 4-0 defeats every week like under Other managers after Gary left and even in those seasons we always went in to the second half of the season with the playoff’s in our sights we just couldn’t get over the line our best players aged or developed egos …Basso Orr Carey Mcombe Mcindoe Elliott none of these players were the same after the second half of 08/09 when we were 4th again in March of that year!

Last bit from me now I promise but I think we owed Gary a whole squad revamp before even considering sacking him after he showed what he can do with a group that buy what he sells! We owed him that IMO but football is a fickle harsh world which players rule

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Logical-City

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, Logical-City said:

Better that than 3-0 4-0 defeats every week like under Other managers after Gary left and even in those seasons we always went in to the second half of the season with the playoff’s in our sights we just couldn’t get over the line our best players aged or developed egos …Basso Orr Carey Mcombe Mcindoe Elliott none of these players were the same after the second half of 08/09 when we were 4th again in March of that year!

Last but from me now I promise but I think we owed Gary a whole squad revamp before even considering sacking him after he showed what he can do with a group that buy what he sells! We owed him that IMO but football is a fickle harsh world which players rule

Said this previously , totally agree with you

Id have liked SL to have assembled  the players the following morning after Plymouth and told them , anyone who wanted out to speak up and put it in writing and he would ensure it happened ASAP as Gary Johnson wasn’t going anywhere

 

He’d earned that IMHO 

[Robbored]

22 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

Well if he "overachieved" then Wilson definitely underachieved 

 

By taking unfancied Barnsley to the PL? - you consider that an underachievement?

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Logical-City said:

Better that than 3-0 4-0 defeats every week like under Other managers after Gary left and even in those seasons we always went in to the second half of the season with the playoff’s in our sights we just couldn’t get over the line our best players aged or developed egos …Basso Orr Carey Mcombe Mcindoe Elliott none of these players were the same after the second half of 08/09 when we were 4th again in March of that year!

Last bit from me now I promise but I think we owed Gary a whole squad revamp before even considering sacking him after he showed what he can do with a group that buy what he sells! We owed him that IMO but football is a fickle harsh world which players rule

 

Anyone remember this?

 

[Galley is our king]

3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Said this previously , totally agree with you

Id have liked SL to have assembled  the players the following morning after Plymouth and told them , anyone who wanted out to speak up and put it in writing and he would ensure it happened ASAP as Gary Johnson wasn’t going anywhere

 

He’d earned that IMHO 

Absolutely!!!!

Some mates of mine who were there said if they knew what was happening they would have gone and helped him!

[2015]

10 minutes ago, Logical-City said:

Better that than 3-0 4-0 defeats every week like under Other managers after Gary left and even in those seasons we always went in to the second half of the season with the playoff’s in our sights we just couldn’t get over the line our best players aged or developed egos …Basso Orr Carey Mcombe Mcindoe Elliott none of these players were the same after the second half of 08/09 when we were 4th again in March of that year!

Last bit from me now I promise but I think we owed Gary a whole squad revamp before even considering sacking him after he showed what he can do with a group that buy what he sells! We owed him that IMO but football is a fickle harsh world which players rule

 

I appreciate the sentiment towards GJ and what he achieved in his time but imo come the end we were on a downward spiral and performances were below par. We had great times under him (like in the match posted) but it wasn't my cup of tea (Not getting the best of of Noble and Trundle in particular). 

Yes the managers after him were woeful too and he is one of the better ones along with Cotterill, his son AND Wilson

[Logical-City]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Anyone remember this?

 

More to do with the players that disgusting performance 

[2015]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Anyone remember this?

 

Yeah I do, got outplayed by a side who played great football back then.

[Galley is our king]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

By taking unfancied Barnsley to the PL? - you consider that an underachievement?

I don't give a rats ass about Barnsley  I only care about Bristol City and whilst at Bristol City he definitely underachieved!!!