Danny Wilson was City's last 'proper' manager - discuss.

[Offside]

Here’s my tuppence worth:

Danny Wilson had a good side and we played some decent football under him. But we were also very soft, especially away from home at places like Stockport where the team simply weren’t up for it. Wilson should have got us promoted from that league with the players he had.

Gary Johnson did brilliantly to get us promoted so quickly and then into the play offs. That side had a brilliant attitude and there was a good atmosphere around AG. By the end of his tenure, though, his time had come. 

Cotts will always be remembered for that double winning season. Our football was excellent. Again, the team spirit he installed was superb. 

I liked LJ in many ways, but by the end his time had come and one thing I didn’t like was how the side that had got promoted under Cotts was dismantled so quickly. We had good times with LJ (like the cup run), but in tandem with the narcissist MA he also oversaw a destructive recruitment regime that we are only just recovering from. 

[Robbored]

24 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Id have liked SL to have assembled  the players the following morning after Plymouth and told them , anyone who wanted out to speak up and put it in writing and he would ensure it happened ASAP as Gary Johnson wasn’t going anywhere

He’d earned that IMHO 

If SL had gone that road and not sacked GJ then he wouldn’t have had a squad of players who’d refused to play under for Johnson after his disgraceful behaviour down at Argyle.  He was brawling with the players ffs and they threw him out of the locker room..…….jeez…….

The club announced that GJ had left the club “by mutual consent”…….………..

[Riaz]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

1st bold bit - If you want a simple, players bought versus players sold during his tenure you will see something around the following:

• Players bought - £61.600m
• Players sold (minus sell ons to former clubs) - £79.400m - that obviously includes Pack, Flint, Bryan and Reid and Kodjia, who were all here before he came.

2nd bold bit - his record of replacing them (whether it was MA deciding them if not) is not so glorious

• Players bought - £61.600m
• Players sold (minus sell ons to former clubs) - £32.400m
• plus those Players he bought that are still here, e.g. Bentley, Dasilva, Kalas, Wells, Massengo, Weimann (I don’t think you get £28.8m for them to square off the spend)

Now, I have a view, but in this case I’m just providing some reasonably accurate transfer fee info that paints two sides of the coin.  But I think it depends how you frame your argument which side you (or anyone else) decides to take.

FWIW I think using “net spend” is a bit of a futile argument, but that’s just me.  I think the boundaries of who you include, who you don’t is very subjective.  Nor does it cover wages, agent fees, signing on fees, let alone the cost of the 15 loans we had in that period either.

 

Just arguing against the “he spent loads” myth, which totally ignores the fact we kept selling our best players. Irrespective of whether it was players he signed, he still lost his best players, so was given some of that transfer income to spend 

[Riaz]

4 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Explain then the mountain of debt he left in his wake?

Its been done to death on here dozens of times before. 2015 is spot in his comments.

Lee Johnson wasn’t the money man. Ashton and Steve Lansdown we’re responsible for finances. There was also a pandemic which ruined many clubs finances. Bit ridiculous to blame our financial difficulties on LJ.

poor bloated squad with over-paid players? Yes.

we’re in debt because of LJ? no. 

[Fuber]

18 hours ago, Superjack said:

There you go, Robbored. Can you keep it to this ****ing thread please?

Mods - pin it.

Irony being he wasn't a proper manager.

A proper manager corrects off field issues or disciplinary problems.

Wilson never did so. Arguably the off field problems such a sthe drinking culture were by far away their worst under Wilson - something ironically GJ had to correct.

A proper manager is our current one. Correct culture, there for the players, shields them allowing to get on with it - a proper man manager.

[Riaz]

3 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Did he ? Really ?

You're not an accountant clearly 

He didn’t do ‘well’ in the Championship either 

What did he achieve ? 

I’ll tell ya

He inherited a slim quad with some excellent players , four of whom went onto Premier League Football

He was allowed to enhance that squad with Tomlin & Co .... ‘saved us from relegation’ (If you believe so)

and 18 months later , despite being indulged in various new acquisitions including Tammy and Tomlin on a permanent etc  , we avoided releagation in the penultimate game with a surprise win at promoted Brighton 

What followed was an indulgent real life game of football manager , acquiring , and discarding player after player and constantly tinkering with selections , formations and tactics ...........and talking complete b********

Once Cotts players had been sold or discarded , he was lost ,   it was a one way road 

The result - one of the most unbalanced ,largest , demotivated ,  certainly the most expensive , squads we’ve ever had if not THE 

He also , together with £500 p.a Swiss Tony left us with one hell of a financial mess

 

Oh yes , .......he did really well

I am an accountant

We we’re a consistently top half championship side. How many Bristol City managers have managed that in the last 30 years?

He improved us massively, the first season. We went from woeful to decent and that is a direct comparison to cotts.

I accept, he left us with a bloated squad, on high wages. But that does not tell the whole story 

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Fuber said:

A proper manager is our current one. Correct culture, there for the players, shields them allowing to get on with it - a proper man manager.

Correctomondo!

As I keep repeating - Nige is indeed a ‘proper’ manager.

[Fuber]

32 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Lee Johnson wasn’t the money man. Ashton and Steve Lansdown we’re responsible for finances. There was also a pandemic which ruined many clubs finances. Bit ridiculous to blame our financial difficulties on LJ.

poor bloated squad with over-paid players? Yes.

we’re in debt because of LJ? no. 

We were in the mess with regards to recruitment mostly due to his lack of identity and playing style that was instilled into the squad. Clubs in bag etc.

He wasnt the total cause of the debt, but he was definitely partially responsible through his lack of direction, and as manager would have had access to the same material Ashton had to determine financial position. He also indicated multiple times that it was himself as head coach that signed off on signings.

I split responsibility between all three of them. In the same manner of stars aligning may mean we get a playoff push, so two did they aline with dumb, dumber, and dumbest in LJ, MA, and JL respectively.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Fuber

[Sheltons Army]

37 minutes ago, Riaz said:

I am an accountant

We we’re a consistently top half championship side. How many Bristol City managers have managed that in the last 30 years?

He improved us massively, the first season. We went from woeful to decent and that is a direct comparison to cotts.

I accept, he left us with a bloated squad, on high wages. But that does not tell the whole story 

If you are an accountant I suggest you look a bit further at his spending on clubs in the bag ...... Include the signing on fees , the soaring wages and total wage bill.... doubled ? 

He thought he was far better than he is ,   Or was and had far higher opinion of his own ability than he did of others who are leagues ahead of him managerially 

We’ve had worse , but for the opportunities he was afforded he’d be looking at the wrong end of the table in my list of best managers here 

 

Him and the snake blew the best opportunities we had at this level in my lifetime

[GreedyHarry]

19 hours ago, Superjack said:

There you go, Robbored. Can you keep it to this ****ing thread please?

Mods - pin it.

Not confirmed on the original site.

End of discussion.

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

Just arguing against the “he spent loads” myth, which totally ignores the fact we kept selling our best players. Irrespective of whether it was players he signed, he still lost his best players, so was given some of that transfer income to spend 

To be honest, most teams lose their best players in the championship. 

[Pezo]

Danny Wilson was just one of many failed managers here - he is in the same bucket as McIness, Tinnion, LJ and Millen. Not as bad as SOD or Benny that took us down and no way near as good as GJ, Ward or Cotts who actually brought some success to this otherwise unsuccessful club.

[Monkeh]

Lj wasnt a failure here, he took a relegation bound side and established them as a championship club,

now that doesnt make him a great head coach ether, but he cant be classed as a failure

Sod and benny were fair worse

[Davefevs]

I know I keep saying, but LJ was mixed….some good stuff and some bad stuff.  I thought he kept results going over and above performance levels (in some ways a good sign), but I thought it was about to catch up with him too.  If that happened we were then back to where he started.  That had begun to happen….he was sacked before we got worse.

He spent a lot of money and recouped a fair bit of it too, and I accept that SL wasn’t asking him the breaker-even every year either.  @Riazas an accountant you’ll see where the trend was going (eff knows how SL didn’t!!!) and this coincided with a weakening squad too, leaving us in the position over the past season or two, albeit hastened by Covid.

We saw some good football in his time, along with some rigid crap too.

In effect we’ve had to go back to a similar position to when SOD was in charge, but “luckily” for us, Nige negotiated a difficult time and kept us in the Championship.  I honestly don’t subscribe to “we need to go down and reset”.  We thought that with SOD and almost went down again.  The top half of Lg1 is incredibly competitive.

[Lack of Action Man]

I really enjoyed Danny Wilson’s era as manager, though I probably am looking back on it with slight rose tinted glasses. We played some bloody good football and had a very exciting team to watch (generally). We were also pretty hard to beat, and I remember going to AG every fortnight feeling we could beat anyone on our day. It was a shame he never was able to get us promoted, but leaving Lita out in the play off final was a bloody silly thing to do.

The GJ era was good, but for different reasons. I don’t think the football was as good, but the feel good vibe around the ground was the best it has ever been in my lifetime. The connection between the fans and players, and the club as a whole, felt tangible and I really do think this was at least partly responsible for some of our success in this era.

For me, the only other “proper” manager we’ve had in the 21st century (other than Nige) is Cotts. We played a swashbuckling style of football that was very attack minded, and we had some real flair players who would get me out of my seat. I also won my largest season long bet under SC’s tenure so I’ll always look back on him fondly! 

[bpexile]

11 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

No it's not !!!..........................................

Yes it is !!!...............................................

No it ****ing isn't !!!...........................

Yes it ****ing is !!!..................................

Sorry guys its been a tough day 

[BTRFTG]

4 hours ago, Riaz said:

Lee Johnson wasn’t the money man. Ashton and Steve Lansdown we’re responsible for finances. There was also a pandemic which ruined many clubs finances. Bit ridiculous to blame our financial difficulties on LJ.

poor bloated squad with over-paid players? Yes.

we’re in debt because of LJ? no. 

You what? WeeLee was the manager. 

Two ways to look at it:

If, as you suggest, WeeLee was a passive manager who simply selected from that he was dealt, what type of gutless, spineless and subservient individual must he be and who might possibly take him seriously let alone appoint him in any position of authority?

On the other hand if he was instrumental in identifying those he wanted in his squad, tasking Ashton to acquire them, what a useless judge of a footballer he is.

Which is it?

[Selred]

Let’s look at the stats, if it’s not promotions for Bristol City which is the most entertaining aspect, then I guess the next best would be goals scored?

Wilson - highest goals scored in a season, 78 which we didn’t get promotion with. 

Cotts - 96, which we won the league with. So more goals, and a promotion. What could be more entertaining?

Or if GJ is a conference manager, as he’s now managing Torquay, then you’ve got Wilson whose been unemployed after 7 years since being sacked by League One Chesterfield, you’ve got Cotts who is still employed in League One with Shrewsbury, LJ who is employed in SPL. Again you’d probably say LJ or Cotts is the best manager right now based on current clubs, absolutely not Wilson.

Essentially all very weird. I bet Robbo couldn’t give any facts why he thinks Wilson is better, purely rose tinted glasses and spite

[nebristolred]

Rather coincidentally, this video has just come out, from a presumably unbiased YouTube account:

They literally describe the achievement of getting Yeovil to the Championship as being similar to Leicester winning the Premier League title. Crowds of just 4,000 and the lowest wage budget in League One of just £1,000,000 - roughly what we were paying Kasey Palmer alone if rumours are to be believed.

This is after bringing the club up to League One from the Conference, and winning the FA Trophy.

So even the neutrals seem to think GJ is a 'proper' manager - it seems the only one to disagree is one with a massive chip on their shoulder, whatever reason that may be 

[Oh Louie louie]

Holloways boast about taking grimsby to the prem, that was funny.

He was being serious too!

We all could have said what would really happen.

Steered back into non leauge, and a p45.

[Oh Louie louie]

Joey bartons prediction about overtaking us soon.

4 weeks is a long tme in football.

Another pearl of wisdom.

We are looking at the prem, they again are staring relegation to the bottom division on form.

Good fit for them he is.

Overtake us in 5 years, wont happen in 500, the clown,

[robin for life]

For me, in my lifetime Gary Johnson has been our best and most successful manager. 
I loved his hairdryer treatment and also the Del Boy wheeler dealer type of manager that wasn't afraid to give anyone a chance. He got a great morale from his players and in Basso he found a cult hero who helped install belief to the club.

He was also one of the nicest people to meet, and I know when my Dad, Brother and Myself were at the Man Utd game the other year, he was in the lift with us. He didn't look in the best of health, but still stopped to chat with us when he got out the lift for 2/3 minutes. 

Even when we often went 2-0 down, that Johnson team always felt like they could turn it around, and our promotion from League One and the continuation to Play Off finalists in the Championship has really been my most enjoyable time watching the club, until the first half of the 17/18 season, when it looked like we could go all the way, and we had the dream cup run, before we ran out of puff by the end of January.

Under Gary Johnson we never looked beaten and the players gave their all for him, until that final year. I was sad when he left, and whilst it was probably the right time and he admitted he had taken us as far as he could, I still think we have struggled to replicate that level of team since, yet there were no stars or big wage Charlie's in a Johnson line up.

For me, I will always fondly remember his time at our club, and for me there was times that LJ looked like he might emulate him but it wasn't to be.

We showed times under Wilson that we were a good side and enjoyable to watch, but the mentality was all wrong.

I was excited when Pearson came in, and hoped it would work, as I've always liked him as a manager. My worry is he is very dry and old fashioned and that when results haven't gone his way, he hasn't endeared himself on the fans, so his head was called for earlier than many heads have been called for. I'll be first to admit, I was one of those calling for his head at the end of last season, but not now, he has won me around and this season is starting to feel like 2008 again, with the right mentality and players who may not have been likely candidates for star players coming to the fore and suddenly we look a TEAM again. I'm very excited and yes its early days, but like 2008, something just feels right and I have a feeling that this may end up being our year. We need to be in the top 4 or 5 in January to have any chance of holding on to the key players and I finally see a team that play for the shirt.

If Pearson takes us up on our shoestring budget, then for me, he surpasses Gary Johnson as our best manager.

I feel certain managers get longer in a job, because they are likeable and you want them to do well, Warnock, Holloway, LJ all spring to mind, as managers who can talk their way into a few more months, but Pearson kind of is very cold, and maybe we didn't need someone who would win a popularity competition, but a football one.

For me, the few times I met GJ, he was humble, kind and professional and a very decent bloke, and I think his teams give him everything as he would be like one of those people, that in person they are genuine and decent and do anything for you, but mess up on the pitch and he'll come at you all guns blazing. He didn't take fools gladly and was honest. I don't know how anyone could get on the wrong side of GJ and if you did, it would have to be for something serious, or because you deserved it for being a *****.

For me GJ is the best manager we've had in my 40 years on this planet, but Pearson is starting to contend.  

[Rebounder]

6 hours ago, Selred said:

Let’s look at the stats, if it’s not promotions for Bristol City which is the most entertaining aspect, then I guess the next best would be goals scored?

Wilson - highest goals scored in a season, 78 which we didn’t get promotion with. 

Cotts - 96, which we won the league with. So more goals, and a promotion. What could be more entertaining?

Or if GJ is a conference manager, as he’s now managing Torquay, then you’ve got Wilson whose been unemployed after 7 years since being sacked by League One Chesterfield, you’ve got Cotts who is still employed in League One with Shrewsbury, LJ who is employed in SPL. Again you’d probably say LJ or Cotts is the best manager right now based on current clubs, absolutely not Wilson.

Essentially all very weird. I bet Robbo couldn’t give any facts why he thinks Wilson is better, purely rose tinted glasses and spite

I know Robbored likes to trot out that Gary Johnson must be a conference managed as that is where he is now. Like some sort of "gotcha" because of a stupid thread he made 15 odd years ago that backfired as we earned promotion and then got us to a play off final in the Championship. 

Most managers do drop off after they reach their peak. Some keep going around various clubs due to their name (Bruce), or because they have a particular skill (Warnock). Lots stop managing and fade into the background, or they do what Johnson has eventually done and drop back down to lower levels.

I think the only reason Johnson is a conference manager now is because he loves managing, and Torquay are a great club in a nice area of the UK so why wouldn't he want to carry on? He could have dropped off as so many managers do when their offers dry up at league level and especially when he became unwell. 

People can have their views and some good points have been made about what went wrong for Johnson here in the end. I think most of us just find it quite sad that a man in his 70's still hasn't let go of being embarrassed all that time ago and has to double down on his views at every chance he gets. I don't really like the phrase living rent free in someone's head, but if it was ever created for someone it would be GJ in Robboreds head. Personally think he's best ignored as he was 15 years ago. 

[Oh Louie louie]

I dont like to say it, but if you look at torquays results.

Gjs on borrowed time.

[alexukhc]

3 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

I dont like to say it, but if you look at torquays results.

Gjs on borrowed time.

I agree and where does he go from there? I think he needs to move upstairs if I’m honest

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

I dont like to say it, but if you look at torquays results.

Gjs on borrowed time.

Not really, have you seen their squad, they have a bottom 6 conference squad and not a pot to piss in

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Not really, have you seen their squad, they have a bottom 6 conference squad and not a pot to piss in

A proper manager would be able to improve their results.

[Selred]

8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

A proper manager would be able to improve their results.

Do you follow Torquay?

[Son of Fred]

16 minutes ago, Robbored said:

A proper manager would be able to improve their results.

Let it go ...

You'll be happier for it.

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Selred said:

Do you follow Torquay?

Been to Torquay many times - I remember Lita scoring 4 on a foggy day a few years ago.