The conundrum that is Naismith

[Davefevs]

FWIW I think some of his excellent defending in these opening 9/11 games has been forgotten about.

[Norn Iron]

1 hour ago, Charlie BCFC said:

Thought he patched up second half and was a lot better. Time to move on to another difficult game Saturday 

Phew! That's what I thought as well. He still went forward but didn't try to do anything overtly fanciful in the second half.

The first goal reminded me of England v Poland WC qualifier in 1973. All Norman had to do was hoof it into the proverbial Row Z. He didn't and Poland scored. 

Whatever happened to Norman? Became one of Alan Dicks' best signings and where the word legend can be correctly used.

If you don't know about the above mistake, yertiz. It is about 2 minutes after start but it's worth watching from the beginning.

 

[Davefevs]

Shilton diving over the ball too!

[Norn Iron]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Shilton diving over the ball too!

I cry very rarely. Going to bed after watching the match (I was a schoolboy back then) was one of those rare occasions.

[spudski]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW I think some of his excellent defending in these opening 9/11 games has been forgotten about.

Yes I agree...considering how open we play.

I'm not convinced totally on the zonal marking at corners though. However...it's improved on the individual marking we had before, where no one seemed to know who was marking who. Guess it's a lesser of the two evils.

Yesterday look at the corner they scored from...watch Zac... Truly feeble.

Yet he does other things well.

I don't know whether anyone else noticed, but it just shows it's a game of fine margins. Pukis second goal...Zak got across and actually got a foot to the ball, however it deflected away from Bents who had the original angle covered. Only slight...but it was enough. Shame as he did well to get a foot in.

I think the Who Scored summary of our strengths and weaknesses is spot on.

+ Strengths

Finishing scoring chances

Very Strong

Counter attacks

Very Strong

Attacking down the wings

Very Strong

Creating scoring chances

Strong

Stealing the ball from the opposition

Strong

- Weaknesses

Stopping opponents from creating chances

Weak

Defending against attacks down the wings

Weak

Defending against through ball attacks

Weak

Defending against skillful players

Weak

Aerial duels

Weak

Avoiding individual errors

Weak

Defending set pieces

Very Weak

Protecting the lead

Very Weak

Bristol City's Style of Play

• Attacking down the right
• Long balls
• Attempt through balls often
• Aggressive
• Play the offside trap

[fgrsimon]

Aden Flint had a similar start to his time here, several costly blunders and bad luck costing goals and points but it worked out pretty well in the long term! 

[pongo88]

3 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

I’m sure people didn’t have issues with this before last night so why now? Thought he patched up second half and was a lot better. Time to move on to another difficult game Saturday 

His mistakes have been discussed on the forum before. The general, though not consensus, view then seemed to be that they were just the odd mistake or two and all would be well in the long term.  Unfortunately he’s beginning to remind me of a quote from the play The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde:

 “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

For Naismith it should read:

To make one serious mistake may be regarded as a misfortune; to make several looks like carelessness. 
 

Unfortunately he’s also beginning to remind me of something else - Adam El-Abd (I’ve got my tin hat on and expect a lot of abuse). When El-Abd arrived from Brighton he was highly rated by their supporters and seemed to be a great signing. Then it went pear shaped as he managed to make a series of big mistakes in matches. In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

His mistakes have been discussed on the forum before. The general, though not consensus, view then seemed to be that they were just the odd mistake or two and all would be well in the long term.  Unfortunately he’s beginning to remind me of a quote from the play The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde:

 “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

For Naismith it should read:

To make one serious mistake may be regarded as a misfortune; to make several looks like carelessness. 
 

Unfortunately he’s also beginning to remind me of something else - Adam El-Abd (I’ve got my tin hat on and expect a lot of abuse). When El-Abd arrived from Brighton he was highly rated by their supporters and seemed to be a great signing. Then it went pear shaped as he managed to make a series of big mistakes in matches. In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes 

The difference with AEB is that he didn’t do any good things to balance it out!

[Red-Robbo]

5 hours ago, CrackingCheeseGromit said:

You mean like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins?

 

Well, he's certainly not Virgil....

[Major Isewater]

I think we have to accept that he is not your average hoof it or head it central defender, sadly neither is Vyner which leads to a defensive weakness down our right flank.Both players are more like midfielders than traditional stoppers. I am sure both will improve or be bypassed  as the team develops.

Nigel knows our weaknesses. 

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, pongo88 said:

His mistakes have been discussed on the forum before. The general, though not consensus, view then seemed to be that they were just the odd mistake or two and all would be well in the long term.  Unfortunately he’s beginning to remind me of a quote from the play The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde:

 “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

For Naismith it should read:

To make one serious mistake may be regarded as a misfortune; to make several looks like carelessness. 
 

Unfortunately he’s also beginning to remind me of something else - Adam El-Abd (I’ve got my tin hat on and expect a lot of abuse). When El-Abd arrived from Brighton he was highly rated by their supporters and seemed to be a great signing. Then it went pear shaped as he managed to make a series of big mistakes in matches. In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes 

Or a consequence of team intent.

If the player was being asked to be conservative in possession and consistently retain the ball he would be failing. 

The player is being asked to play very positively. A feature of play is how often the player attempts to switch play and break lines.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Cowshed

[The Journalist]

3 hours ago, pongo88 said:

His mistakes have been discussed on the forum before. The general, though not consensus, view then seemed to be that they were just the odd mistake or two and all would be well in the long term.  Unfortunately he’s beginning to remind me of a quote from the play The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde:

 “To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.”

For Naismith it should read:

To make one serious mistake may be regarded as a misfortune; to make several looks like carelessness. 
 

Unfortunately he’s also beginning to remind me of something else - Adam El-Abd (I’ve got my tin hat on and expect a lot of abuse). When El-Abd arrived from Brighton he was highly rated by their supporters and seemed to be a great signing. Then it went pear shaped as he managed to make a series of big mistakes in matches. In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes 

Imagine comparing El-Abd with Naismith!

One a limited, physical clogger at centre-half and the other a genuine quality player. Sure, he's made a few mistakes but it's obvious he's a proper footballer.

Glad you've got your tin hat on because that is an absolutely horrendous comparison. Enjoyable.

[CheddarReds]

Naismith is very calm on the ball playing in his role, which has resulted in a few mistakes but has also benefitted how we progress the ball. From what I've seen this season we're more frequently playing through teams and I think part of the reason is Naismith. Yes, in the sense he can play those passes but more so that because Naismith is patient the opposition sometimes push higher up the pitch leaving space in behind, or an individual switches off and we have taken advantage of it by playing forward. 

Obviously the frequency of the mistakes he's made leading to goals is a concern and if it continues at this rate I can understand why some might become more and more frustrated.

However, his experience, leadership, communication and positive defensive contributions in that back 3 combined with the benefits that come with his playing out from the back make his position pretty safe if I were picking the team.

It'll be interesting to see how quickly Kalas gets back into the side when he returns from injury, and how it changes our defensive positions/ shape.

[Tinmans Love Child]

19 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

I’m sure people didn’t have issues with this before last night so why now? Thought he patched up second half and was a lot better. Time to move on to another difficult game Saturday 

This is awkward…https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/218004-we-need-to-talk-about-kal/

[AppyDAZE]

I like him, but the more times I see their first goal and watch him trying to bring that ball down on his toe, the more I wonder what planet did he think he was on?

It is a dreadful decision, especially in such a game against somebody like Pukki.

Shocking really. Has to learn by this surely!

Edited September 16, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[tin]

If Naismith can cut out those riskier passes, he’ll be fine. Costly errors aside, he been class for us so far and is a major part in the positive way we play.

I’d much rather watch us have a go at sides and make mistakes along the way, rather than endure the turgid shit of the last four years.

It’s how he, and the likes of Bentley and Vyner around him, learns from his mistakes that matters IMO. 

[Kibs]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

I like him, but the more times I see their first goal and watch him trying to bring that ball down on his toe, the more I wonder what planet did he think he was on?

It is a dreadful decision, especially in such a game against somebody like Pukki.

Shocking really. Has to learn by this surely!

Yeah that was the one that really was bizarre. I'm not sure whether it was arrogance or stupidity? I can kind of accept the ones where he steps into midfield and his passes get picked off, or he tries to break the lines and the ball gets nicked, but that one was absolutely insane. Trying to bring a ball down coming out of the sky over his left shoulder, with the outside of his left foot, facing his own goal, whilst under pressure from a striker. Even if he does somehow turn into Lionel Messi for a second and brings it down, what does he do next!? Just head it/volley it out for a throw. 

I really like the guy, I love what he brings to the team, not just his ability but his attitude and leadership. Everything we've been missing. I managed to speak with him after the Sunderland game and he was absolutely devastated, you could see what it means to him but he really needs to sharpen up his decision making - which I'm sure he is well aware of. 

[cidered abroad]

17 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Yeah that was the one that really was bizarre. I'm not sure whether it was arrogance or stupidity? I can kind of accept the ones where he steps into midfield and his passes get picked off, or he tries to break the lines and the ball gets nicked, but that one was absolutely insane. Trying to bring a ball down coming out of the sky over his left shoulder, with the outside of his left foot, facing his own goal, whilst under pressure from a striker. Even if he does somehow turn into Lionel Messi for a second and brings it down, what does he do next!? Just head it/volley it out for a throw. 

I really like the guy, I love what he brings to the team, not just his ability but his attitude and leadership. Everything we've been missing. I managed to speak with him after the Sunderland game and he was absolutely devastated, you could see what it means to him but he really needs to sharpen up his decision making - which I'm sure he is well aware of. 

His decision making seems a lot like the one that Marlon Pack made in the last minute against Wolves. Put it into row Z or try to play his way out of trouble. One can admire them for trying to play football rather goofball but sometimes there is only one thing to do!

[pongo88]

17 hours ago, The Journalist said:

Imagine comparing El-Abd with Naismith!

One a limited, physical clogger at centre-half and the other a genuine quality player. Sure, he's made a few mistakes but it's obvious he's a proper footballer.

Glad you've got your tin hat on because that is an absolutely horrendous comparison. Enjoyable.

If you’d read my post correctly you would have realised that I wasn’t comparing playing styles.  What I said was:

“In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes” I was not comparing playing style, rather a players’ actual ability not matching their confidence in their ability 

Naismith is 30 as was El-Abd when he signed for City. Some players can play into their 30s with no drop in standard but others seem to just lose a bit of sharpness as they get older. I think this is the problem with Naismith. His brain thinks he can do something he used to do but his legs and feet don’t quite react as they should. A good example is his mistake against Sunderland. He seemed to think he could waltz out of trouble but his footwork was far too slow and cumbersome. 

Although a totally different type of player, El-Abd had the same problem. He had a good career at Brighton as a nasty, niggly, in your face type of player. When he came to City his reaction and timing had just lost its edge, so he ended up making mistakes which led to him making more bad tackles to compensate. 

I think Naismith can still have a good season at City if he accepts he isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is. Keep playing passing football but, when in trouble, keep it simple 

Perhaps you’d had a few and were feeling a bit tired and emotional when you said it was a horrible comparison, so I’ll forgive you 

[spudski]

22 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

If you’d read my post correctly you would have realised that I wasn’t comparing playing styles.  What I said was:

“In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes” I was not comparing playing style, rather a players’ actual ability not matching their confidence in their ability 

Naismith is 30 as was El-Abd when he signed for City. Some players can play into their 30s with no drop in standard but others seem to just lose a bit of sharpness as they get older. I think this is the problem with Naismith. His brain thinks he can do something he used to do but his legs and feet don’t quite react as they should. A good example is his mistake against Sunderland. He seemed to think he could waltz out of trouble but his footwork was far too slow and cumbersome. 

Although a totally different type of player, El-Abd had the same problem. He had a good career at Brighton as a nasty, niggly, in your face type of player. When he came to City his reaction and timing had just lost its edge, so he ended up making mistakes which led to him making more bad tackles to compensate. 

I think Naismith can still have a good season at City if he accepts he isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is. Keep playing passing football but, when in trouble, keep it simple 

Perhaps you’d had a few and were feeling a bit tired and emotional when you said it was a horrible comparison, so I’ll forgive you 

Maybe his confidence can be blamed on his new hair follicles...as quoted

https://www.zestige.co.uk/success-stories/kal-naismith/

[PHILINFRANCE]

5 hours ago, pongo88 said:

If you’d read my post correctly you would have realised that I wasn’t comparing playing styles.  What I said was:

“In a way Naismith reminds me of El-Abd as both seemed to have a lot of confidence in their own abilities.  Perhaps too much, which leads to careless mistakes” I was not comparing playing style, rather a players’ actual ability not matching their confidence in their ability 

Naismith is 30 as was El-Abd when he signed for City. Some players can play into their 30s with no drop in standard but others seem to just lose a bit of sharpness as they get older. I think this is the problem with Naismith. His brain thinks he can do something he used to do but his legs and feet don’t quite react as they should. A good example is his mistake against Sunderland. He seemed to think he could waltz out of trouble but his footwork was far too slow and cumbersome. 

Although a totally different type of player, El-Abd had the same problem. He had a good career at Brighton as a nasty, niggly, in your face type of player. When he came to City his reaction and timing had just lost its edge, so he ended up making mistakes which led to him making more bad tackles to compensate. 

I think Naismith can still have a good season at City if he accepts he isn’t quite as good as he thinks he is. Keep playing passing football but, when in trouble, keep it simple 

Perhaps you’d had a few and were feeling a bit tired and emotional when you said it was a horrible comparison, so I’ll forgive you 

I sort of agree with your suggestion that perhaps KL thinks (optimistically, but incorrectly) he can still react and move as he did when he was younger - it happens to the best of us - and he might be able to get away with it if he was a kick it and head it central defender.

Unfortunately, or not, depending on your view, he has a more cultured background and is a fairly recent convert to the centre of defence.

I think NP needs to have a strong word with KL - he probably has already, several times - and try and dissuade him from trying to play it out from the back when he is the last man, and certainly to stop making ‘silly’ passes when he is the last defender.

Without searching back through the whole thread, I seem to recall you were going to put your tin hat on when you made the El Abd comparison - I may be referring to a different thread, or you may even have several tin hats - but, surprisingly, there appears to have been little dissent to your view.

[Red Cloud]

Another way of looking at it, if he didn't make mistakes he wouldn't be playing for us - his positives far out weigh his negatives IMO

[Garland-sweden]

He is a defender, his DNA should be defend and play safe. Maybe he Think he is better than he is. In schoolyard you Can have fun and make mistakes but this is Championship. If he starts today and cost us a goal, for me over and out. Hope not Offcause because I love our team. COYR 

[big dosser]

many good points made but the problem most defenders have is they are told to play and try and keep the ball.sometimes a good old fashion hoof would not go a miss but football has change so much.

[Sheltons Army]

Naismith with Geoff Twentyman on SOC tonight for an hour

Well worth a listen , very honest about his errors , talk about his playing philosophy and the attraction of coming to City

Grounded and sounds a great lad 

 

* Interesting insight into Nathan Jones and his managerial credentials , and who it would appear had a lot of good to say about City as a Club , when Naismith told him he was not staying at Luton and was sleeping on offers from a few Clubs

Edited September 26, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[M.D]

What a great listen, a very infectious man and a true leader..

He's got me more pumped up for the season now..

[Sheltons Army]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0cyx4r9

[Champfan45]

I think he's got the right attributes to be a deep lying playmaker/holding midfielder but not with a back three/five behind him. I'm not sure whether there's a clear fit for him in the current setup

[eardun]

35 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Naismith with Geoff Twentyman on SOC tonight for an hour

Well worth a listen , very honest about his errors , talk about his playing philosophy and the attraction of coming to City

Grounded and sounds a great lad 

 

* Interesting insight into Nathan Jones and his managerial credentials , and who it would appear had a lot of good to say about City as a Club , when Naismith told him he was not staying at Luton and was sleeping on offers from a few Clubs

Agree. Really interesting and honest interview. I like him - and I also enjoy watching him play. Doesn’t shy away from answering questions just like he doesn’t shy away from demanding the ball. 

[Selred]

1 hour ago, Champfan45 said:

I think he's got the right attributes to be a deep lying playmaker/holding midfielder but not with a back three/five behind him. I'm not sure whether there's a clear fit for him in the current setup

He’s our more pivotal player in our current set up. His style forces our style and we’ve become a far better team this season from it. Yes he makes errors but we’ve been 10x more enjoyable to watch this season, which I believe is massively down to Naismith.