Atmosphere.

[Winterstoke toad]

3 hours ago, redkev said:

When ever there has been large basically younger more boisterous fans next to the away fans at Ashton gate more often than not it leads to disorder of some degree either in or departing the ground , something l  don’t think the police or the club will tolerate

If it’s a case of the police not tolerating it then Avon and Somerset police are the biggest bunch of wet wipes going , pretty much every other club in the country can manage home and away fans stood next to each other with barely any segregation let alone in two separate stands like it would be at Ashton gate ( Dolman and atyeo) .

[IAmNick]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Pretty sure the ground had a better atmosphere when East End was there. Two or three reasons.

Acoustics, closer proximity to away fans and even though technically all-seater, those old fashioned seats let's say it encouraged standing, standing fans more likely to sing etc.

I agree it did, but we've had a few games since which show a great atmosphere can still be created.

The last season I can remember with a consistently decent atmosphere was probably the playoff final one, and I don't think that's a coincidence!

I think the Dolman has a lifespan of 10-20 years left doesn't it? I wonder if as part of that redevelopment the away fans will get a spot in a potential second tier there and be closer to S82? Could be timed with an Atyeo redevelopment so we have home fans behind both ends.

[Bristol Rob]

10 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I agree it did, but we've had a few games since which show a great atmosphere can still be created.

The last season I can remember with a consistently decent atmosphere was probably the playoff final one, and I don't think that's a coincidence!

I think the Dolman has a lifespan of 10-20 years left doesn't it? I wonder if as part of that redevelopment the away fans will get a spot in a potential second tier there and be closer to S82? Could be timed with an Atyeo redevelopment so we have home fans behind both ends.

That'll be the VR Zone where you get to put on a headset and move around the pitch in real time using a joystick.

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, Winterstoke toad said:

If it’s a case of the police not tolerating it then Avon and Somerset police are the biggest bunch of wet wipes going , pretty much every other club in the country can manage home and away fans stood next to each other with barely any segregation let alone in two separate stands like it would be at Ashton gate ( Dolman and atyeo) .

Whether they tolerate it or not Idk, but it likely would require more police a) In the ground and b) In that position and c) Perhaps on a more regular basis.

Which would cost the club more. Clubs pay for police within the footprint of the stadium, beyond that not their concern. Out there? Public order issue.

I dunno whether it is decisive but I expect that it is a factor.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[bbew]

It is a sad state of affairs when the Dolman can barely muster a 'come on your reds' at a corner.

As a fanbase we do not deserve success, if people cannot even be bothered to get behind the team vocally when required.

We have had games over the last few seasons where we have equalised with about 15 minutes left, the game there to be taken, and still nothing.

Yet, on some occasions, normally for 30 seconds after a goal we can be quite loud.

 

[RedLionLad]

1 minute ago, bbew said:

It is a sad state of affairs when the Dolman can barely muster a 'come on your reds' at a corner.

As a fanbase we do not deserve success, if people cannot even be bothered to get behind the team vocally when required.

We have had games over the last few seasons where we have equalised with about 15 minutes left, the game there to be taken, and still nothing.

Yet, on some occasions, normally for 30 seconds after a goal we can be quite loud.

 

Some of them are probably past that stage

[Mad Cyril]

3 minutes ago, bbew said:

It is a sad state of affairs when the Dolman can barely muster a 'come on your reds' at a corner.

As a fanbase we do not deserve success, if people cannot even be bothered to get behind the team vocally when required.

We have had games over the last few seasons where we have equalised with about 15 minutes left, the game there to be taken, and still nothing.

Yet, on some occasions, normally for 30 seconds after a goal we can be quite loud.

 

I hope there is some money available to buy some loud fans in the January transfer window. Seems that makes such a difference we would be daft not to prioritize that over new players.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, bbew said:

It is a sad state of affairs when the Dolman can barely muster a 'come on your reds' at a corner.

As a fanbase we do not deserve success, if people cannot even be bothered to get behind the team vocally when required.

We have had games over the last few seasons where we have equalised with about 15 minutes left, the game there to be taken, and still nothing.

Yet, on some occasions, normally for 30 seconds after a goal we can be quite loud.

 

 

I think it's a reflection of an ageing fanbase as much as anything. The old folk near where I sit make barely a peep during games, and inevitably the majority of singing is from under 45s.

I can't attend a large number of away games these days so maybe I have a false picture, but it seems a truism wherever you go that the away support is louder (per person) than the home support. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Mad Cyril said:

I hope there is some money available to buy some loud fans in the January transfer window. Seems that makes such a difference we would be daft not to prioritize that over new players.

 

I miss the guy in Dolman B who used to loudly shout "get that shit off the pitch!" every time an opposition player went down injured (or feigning injury at any rate). 

The bloke had such an impressively loud voice that the Admiralty could employ him to warn passing vessels of shipping hazards. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

but it seems a truism wherever you go that the away support is louder (per person) than the home support. 

Definitely agree wirh this point.

[BUTOR]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Definitely agree wirh this point.

It seems to me like a lot of stadiums (in this league anyway) have picked up on this recently and worked with their supporters to improve atmosphere. I haven’t been anywhere this season that is as quiet as the Gate to be honest. Huddersfield and Reading are two I can think of that had a seemingly new section of vocal support implemented in recent years. And next to the away fans of course.

There seems to be an appetite to improve it looking at the reaction to Saturday on social media (many were quite embarrassed), but it will have to be fan led. As stated previously the club have, as a matter of fact, been actively against this type of thing lately. I can definitely see a move to A block being appetising if it was put together properly. 

I do wander though about the change in demographics across the last ten years and whether we are just a slightly posher, quieter Fulham type club these days. The eye test would tell you so on match days. Less ugly *******, more £50 replica shirts and mass club merchandise donners. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

It seems to me like a lot of stadiums (in this league anyway) have picked up on this recently and worked with their supporters to improve atmosphere. I haven’t been anywhere this season that is as quiet as the Gate to be honest. Huddersfield and Reading are two I can think of that had a seemingly new section of vocal support implemented in recent years. And next to the away fans of course.

Reading when I was there in 2021, had home and away fans in the same stand for example. Definitely closer proximity, segregation line if course but seemed to be the location of their noisier fans.

Huddersfield at one stage had rather cheap season tickets. Dunno if it's still the case or how far across the ground it was, but that can feed into the demographics point too and less people priced out I guess.

16 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

There seems to be an appetite to improve it looking at the reaction to Saturday on social media (many were quite embarrassed), but it will have to be fan led. As stated previously the club have, as a matter of fact, been actively against this type of thing lately. I can definitely see a move to A block being appetising if it was put together properly.

I can't comment on e.g. Huddersfield but a lot of these noisier areas tend or have tended to be behind the goal. Side on, I dunno.  E34 upper ie Dolman A brings out arguments about height and safety, standing at angles etc (spurious but another hurdle all the same), E34 lower, would this not block views if this was standing (Dolman H until redevelopment).

Should also add, additional costs of policing and or stewarding that the club may have to bear?

16 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

I do wander though about the change in demographics across the last ten years and whether we are just a slightly posher, quieter Fulham type club these days. The eye test would tell you so on match days. Less ugly *******, more £50 replica shirts and mass club merchandise donners. 

I think it's been changing everywhere to some extent tbh, some places more than others. Probably steadily moved along every 10, perhaps even 5 years since the early 1990s say.

Wouldn't go quite as far as the Fulham comparison but a lot of places yes. Demographics, ticket prices, society- age of average matchgoing fan increasing although that said, the stat about an increase in younger fans at the Fans Forum was encouraging and is something to build on.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Winterstoke toad]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Whether they tolerate it or not Idk, but it likely would require more police a) In the ground and b) In that position and c) Perhaps on a more regular basis.

Which would cost the club more. Clubs pay for police within the footprint of the stadium, beyond that not their concern. Out there? Public order issue.

I dunno whether it is decisive but I expect that it is a factor.

Yeh understand what your saying but if our standing fans were moved to the Dolman there would be no need to have a needless amount of police like they do now stood were section 82 currently is so they really wouldn’t need any more police in numbers than what we currently get .

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Winterstoke toad said:

Yeh understand what your saying but if our standing fans were moved to the Dolman there would be no need to have a needless amount of police like they do now stood were section 82 currently is so they really wouldn’t need any more police in numbers than what we currently get .

Fair. Just redeploy the same numbers basically? Net cost- about the same.

[Winterstoke toad]

22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fair. Just redeploy the same numbers basically? Net cost- about the same.

Yes mate  , unless they want police needlessly dotted all around the home stands . Personally think there would be more than enough police atm to control segregation between the end of the dolman and the away fans . 

[AppyDAZE]

On 30/10/2022 at 11:32, ZumerZetSmithy said:

What I love is spell check for a man who can't spell.   A reason not post on here .  As bad as racist 

Uh, well no.

Criticism for bad spelling is as bad as racism?

You are having me on, aren't you?

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by AppyDAZE

[maxjak]

On 30/10/2022 at 11:26, Davefevs said:

I thought Swansea fans were pretty quiet.

Rumour has it............that they were Quite?

[Topper 123]

Section 82 songs are boring as **** 

[mightyreds89]

Club needs to move S82 to behind the goal for me but just can’t see how they logistically do it with current season tickets etc.

there is an element that try and create noise centrally in SS so putting them all together should spread make section 82 bigger and better would hate the singing section to be in the Dolman stand especially block A as in upper you can’t even see the away fans towards that side. 

[Dullmoan Tone]

So much talk on the stadium, but fans   (and what they want from their matchday) are changing - while away fans still want to, or get swept up in, the chants - there are far more seniors, families and juniors now throughout the stadium.

If the people’s around me are any indication, so many people are watching their bets to cash out, or youngsters repeating the prem scores during the game. There never used to be this distraction - I think it’s because people are sitting so can focus on other things during dull moments !

I doubt we’ll ever get back to the old days - it’s interesting after our cup run I hoped fans would want to recreate the passion and noise in the league and yet, almost as if a switch was turned off, it went back to normal.

Does anyone still think a majority want to sing irrespective of where they sit? I don’t!

[Barrs Court Red]

2 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

 

Does anyone still think a majority want to sing irrespective of where they sit? I don’t!

I’d say yes, in fits and spurts.  The catalyst will be what’s happening on the pitch though. 

 

3 hours ago, mightyreds89 said:

Club needs to move S82 to behind the goal for me but just can’t see how they logistically do it with current season tickets etc.

there is an element that try and create noise centrally in SS so putting them all together should spread make section 82 bigger and better would hate the singing section to be in the Dolman stand especially block A as in upper you can’t even see the away fans towards that side. 

They could make good on their promise, and put rail seating along the back of the South Stand and along the lower Dolman. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Barrs Court Red said:

They could make good on their promise, and put rail seating along the back of the South Stand and along the lower Dolman. 

Could you elaborate on this?

Lower Dolman- About half the stand, about 3k then?

Back of the South Stand, what % capacity.

I also query whether it would find favour with the SAG, police or Licensing Authorities.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[The Constant Rabbit]

The answer is simple and has been touched upon by many.

 

Home fans need to be next to away fans in big numbers in an area where free-ish movement is allowed.

It sounds silly (and probably is) - but put home fans next to away fans and the rivalry becomes 'personal' for 90 minutes. When they sing, gesture and mock, we get annoyed, threatened, defensive of our 'home' and respond in the only may possible (legally!) by doing the same!

Fans feed off each other - always have, always will. 

 

If they score and our 'lads' are 100m away, then there isn't much verbal response (lads being a term for younger more boisterous fans) - but if they are 15m away they respond more 'ferociously' with singing /chanting etc - because they can see the 'enemy' and respond.

 

Again it sounds daft - but it is possible to hate the away fans for 90 minutes, and laugh about it later. 

 

I don't know if what I am trying to say makes sense - I suspect it will to older fans, maybe not newer ones.

 

The only answer is to make the old A + B blocks (from top to bottom) the place for the boisterous to congregate plus:

30 day advance option for season ticket holders who want to swap for a particular game - (ensures no away fans or previously banned)

POTD with 30 days advance sales to City fans (with proven history) only so the people who want to be next to away fans can do so for that game if not ST owners - (ensures no away fans or previously banned)

POTD up to 1hr before kick-off only (should prevent most away fans as to be quite blunt, they would be sussed easily by stewards if arriving 1hr before kick-off).

 

 

Professional segregation between A+B and Atyeo stand - and I mean by 'professional' that Police Officers enforce Away fans and Home fans entry to the area between the stands - not stewards. Stewards can certainly be used to be a visible deterrent, and for verbal direction, but Police will be needed to 'enforce' segregation, should the worst happen.

And put netting in these areas:

The netting and Police should stop 99% of trouble - only the very determined would 'get through' - and that doesn't happen very often in reality.

 

Ashton gate should be able to do this change - you don't need more Police, just better placed ones, plus a slight revamp of the IT system to book seat changes.

If it goes ok for a season - then look to introduce reserved seating at the front of A+B (so people can sit if they want and still see) and free movement at the back (ie standing is 'tolerated').

If that works - introduce rail seating in all of A+B.

 

Football crowds aren't the same as the 'bad old days' - yes you will get some abusive behaviour, some threatening gestures, and bad language - but this isn't the 80's.

People aren't bringing bricks, pool balls and darts to matches anymore. Stanley knives aren't being waved around, much less slashing people across the face.

 

Football is too sanitised now - so let the leash off a bit and see what happens.  People who don't want to sing and gesture can happily sit in the South Stand, 75m away from those who do. Win/Win.

 

The changes above to A+B block will go ahead if the club is reassured that mass violence won't erupt. 

And with pre-booked seats (ID confirmed) and POTD stopping 1hr pre-match + netting and Police should be more than enough to ensure it doesn't.

 

How people will convince the powers-that-be to make that change is another matter!

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by The Constant Rabbit

[mightyreds89]

No way you could have standing permitted in the Dolman especially upper as the angle for safe standing is over the allowed value apparently also, if you had A &B blocks standing then the rest of the dolman would have an obstructed view and have to stand. 
 

I really don’t understand why people think that the home fans need to be next to the away fans, other grounds that have this set up still produce poor atmospheres where side by side.
 

Good example of a good atmosphere is Newcastle where the fans defiantly aren’t side by side. 

extend s82 centrally behind the goal imo. Most fans who wanna sing sit behind the goal. 

[And Its Smith]

12 minutes ago, mightyreds89 said:

No way you could have standing permitted in the Dolman especially upper as the angle for safe standing is over the allowed value apparently also, if you had A &B blocks standing then the rest of the dolman would have an obstructed view and have to stand. 
 

I really don’t understand why people think that the home fans need to be next to the away fans, other grounds that have this set up still produce poor atmospheres where side by side.
 

Good example of a good atmosphere is Newcastle where the fans defiantly aren’t side by side. 

extend s82 centrally behind the goal imo. Most fans who wanna sing sit behind the goal. 

Absolutely. Moving the fans is pointless. I agree that no standing would be allowed in the Dolman. Plus, I’d imagine there are a lot of people in those blocks that have sat their for many years.  I gave a few examples of grounds with good atmospheres where the fans are a long way apart.  The two things they have in common are good songs and lots of fans who sing them! 

[Bristol Rob]

9 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

So much talk on the stadium, but fans   (and what they want from their matchday) are changing - while away fans still want to, or get swept up in, the chants - there are far more seniors, families and juniors now throughout the stadium.

If the people’s around me are any indication, so many people are watching their bets to cash out, or youngsters repeating the prem scores during the game. There never used to be this distraction - I think it’s because people are sitting so can focus on other things during dull moments !

I doubt we’ll ever get back to the old days - it’s interesting after our cup run I hoped fans would want to recreate the passion and noise in the league and yet, almost as if a switch was turned off, it went back to normal.

Does anyone still think a majority want to sing irrespective of where they sit? I don’t!

This.

Ban smart phones from the stadiums.

 

[Barrs Court Red]

11 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could you elaborate on this?

Lower Dolman- About half the stand, about 3k then?

Back of the South Stand, what % capacity.

I also query whether it would find favour with the SAG, police or Licensing Authorities.

Just look at the plans, or the promise made to Bristol Rugby fans before the move that there would be standing areas as described in my post. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Just look at the plans, or the promise made to Bristol Rugby fans before the move that there would be standing areas as described in my post. 

I think from memory there are capacity limits on safe standing etc, can't remember what they are but a lot of hurdles to jump over. Would it get sign off even if intent there ,etc?

Dunno how it crosses over to rugby, I know a lot of these grounds do have or had terracing.

Had a quick Google, it said that the Shed end plus Matrjrw Harding lower had safe standing for a trial v Liverpool in January . Plus it said that was 12,000...percentage of capacity about 28 percent give or take.

Think it needed splitting between home and away, ratios I dunno.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Winterstoke toad]

12 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

The answer is simple and has been touched upon by many.

 

Home fans need to be next to away fans in big numbers in an area where free-ish movement is allowed.

It sounds silly (and probably is) - but put home fans next to away fans and the rivalry becomes 'personal' for 90 minutes. When they sing, gesture and mock, we get annoyed, threatened, defensive of our 'home' and respond in the only may possible (legally!) by doing the same!

Fans feed off each other - always have, always will. 

 

If they score and our 'lads' are 100m away, then there isn't much verbal response (lads being a term for younger more boisterous fans) - but if they are 15m away they respond more 'ferociously' with singing /chanting etc - because they can see the 'enemy' and respond.

 

Again it sounds daft - but it is possible to hate the away fans for 90 minutes, and laugh about it later. 

 

I don't know if what I am trying to say makes sense - I suspect it will to older fans, maybe not newer ones.

 

The only answer is to make the old A + B blocks (from top to bottom) the place for the boisterous to congregate plus:

30 day advance option for season ticket holders who want to swap for a particular game - (ensures no away fans or previously banned)

POTD with 30 days advance sales to City fans (with proven history) only so the people who want to be next to away fans can do so for that game if not ST owners - (ensures no away fans or previously banned)

POTD up to 1hr before kick-off only (should prevent most away fans as to be quite blunt, they would be sussed easily by stewards if arriving 1hr before kick-off).

 

 

Professional segregation between A+B and Atyeo stand - and I mean by 'professional' that Police Officers enforce Away fans and Home fans entry to the area between the stands - not stewards. Stewards can certainly be used to be a visible deterrent, and for verbal direction, but Police will be needed to 'enforce' segregation, should the worst happen.

And put netting in these areas:

The netting and Police should stop 99% of trouble - only the very determined would 'get through' - and that doesn't happen very often in reality.

 

Ashton gate should be able to do this change - you don't need more Police, just better placed ones, plus a slight revamp of the IT system to book seat changes.

If it goes ok for a season - then look to introduce reserved seating at the front of A+B (so people can sit if they want and still see) and free movement at the back (ie standing is 'tolerated').

If that works - introduce rail seating in all of A+B.

 

Football crowds aren't the same as the 'bad old days' - yes you will get some abusive behaviour, some threatening gestures, and bad language - but this isn't the 80's.

People aren't bringing bricks, pool balls and darts to matches anymore. Stanley knives aren't being waved around, much less slashing people across the face.

 

Football is too sanitised now - so let the leash off a bit and see what happens.  People who don't want to sing and gesture can happily sit in the South Stand, 75m away from those who do. Win/Win.

 

The changes above to A+B block will go ahead if the club is reassured that mass violence won't erupt. 

And with pre-booked seats (ID confirmed) and POTD stopping 1hr pre-match + netting and Police should be more than enough to ensure it doesn't.

 

How people will convince the powers-that-be to make that change is another matter!

 

Amen to this

pretty much every other ground in England can manage home and away next to each other there’s no reason we can’t . People keep belting on about obstruction of view but many grounds such as elland road for example has the exact layout your proposing and have no issue at all and a great atmosphere.

[Supersonic Robin]

There's probably not a huge amount of difference in the noise made by various fanbases, they're generally just at different points in terms of positivity. Clubs doing well (or experiencing exciting periods) will be relatively noisy, clubs doing poorly (or experiencing boring periods) will be relatively quiet.

As a club who have had a pretty miserable few years, it's no surprise that the atmosphere isn't amazing at AG. Strangely, I think the atmosphere might even be better if we were in a relegation battle - at least that might rally the fans more (e.g. Derby last season). It's hard to get fans enthusiastic about the battle for 14th! (Disclaimer: I am NOT saying I'd prefer us to be in a relegation battle).

 

An assortment of other thoughts on this:

• Away fans will almost always be more vocal than home fans, per capita
   
• Acoustics might not be amazing in some parts of the ground, but the source noise being made by the crowd is a far more important factor (i.e the problem is probably the amount of noise we make, not how it's being dispersed). We've seen that a great atmosphere is possible at AG (e.g. vs Man U)
   
• I gather that singing/chanting decreases pretty rapidly as you move away from S82. I sit near the centre of the Dolman and try to join in with most of the chants, but I'm in a minority in my area of the ground.
   
• I don't think the club want an especially active, noisy, hostile atmosphere at the games. The Jon Lansdown vision for the matchday atmosphere seems to be aimed at a pleasant, positive, inclusive, family-fun style event. Regardless of whether this is a good or bad aim, it's probably an aim that will soften and dampen the atmosphere a fair bit.