Norwood's Foul on Williams - Why no Red Card?

[Cowshed]

10 hours ago, Fammyfan said:

No punishment at all, so presumably it was missed….like the offside….like the shirt pulling (by the offside Sharp)

Awful decisions yet again, I seriously hope the ref watches back on this game.

Baffling that there is still no VAR in the Championship. When it comes, we will likely be 10 points better off.

Its not baffling, it costs, and the industry in the championship doesn't cover it yet.

No team would be better off points wise beyond a very short term. Unless you believe there is a conspiracy v Bristol City refereeing error is chance (luck). Luck is a consistent across all teams, luck occurs in even measure where refereeing errors even out across teams over months and seasons.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Sky were lapping it up! They thought it was all too amusing…

Who was the summariser?

I remember when we won up there with a late Flint goal (Paterson scored a worldie first half), Michael Brown did that game, I thought he was going to start crying or phone The Samaritans at the final whistle, ridiculously biased.

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its not baffling, it costs, and the industry in the championship doesn't cover it yet.

No team would be better off points wise beyond a very short term. Unless you believe there is a conspiracy v Bristol City refereeing error is chance (luck). Luck is a consistent across all teams, luck occurs in even measure where refereeing errors even out across teams over months and seasons.

At this point I'm sure there is a conspiracy against us. 

Maybe it goes back to the LJ days when we kept getting letters of apology? Who knows. 

But look how long we've gone without a penalty. When do we ever score goals that shouldn't be goals? We are we always having to talk about having horrendous decisions go against us? 

This has been going on for years now. There is too much to it now to just say we've been unlucky. 

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

At this point I'm sure there is a conspiracy against us. 

 

Are you really really sure?

How would in this industry where detail down to minutiae is measured would this conspiracy versus one team be missed?

 

[Big C]

I think the refs have got a pool going and that the first one who gives us a penalty needs to get the drinks in 

[Curr Avon]

38 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Are you really really sure?

How would in this industry where detail down to minutiae is measured would this conspiracy versus one team be missed?

 

On the grassy Knowle. Or is that knoll?

[Clutton Caveman]

11 hours ago, Jacki said:

The ref lost control, like so many do in this league. Both challenges were reds bit of course we get the rough end of all the decisions yet again. The standard of officiating in this league is disgraceful. 

Why are we surprised by the standard of refereeing? Go to any junior game and the ref gets abuse from the parents all game. Move up to youth and players feel free to treat the referee in a way that if it occurred in the work place they would be fired on the spot. Move to adult football and the ref gets verbal abuse and often the threat of physical abuse. Why would anybody take up refereeing? Far less do nowadays and so we have a smaller pool. No surprise that the quality is low. I think we need a major change from the top to the bottom. Only captains can talk to the ref. Any abuse from players is not tolerated, any abuse from the parents of spectators at amateur level and the game is abandoned and if the abuse is repeated the club is suspended for a year. Nobody in any walk of life should have to put up with the treatment referees get. They are human. They turn out at the weekend to get some exercise and enjoy being part of the game they love and get paid almost nothing. If we want better referees we need more, to get more we have to treat them in a better way. End of rant.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look at Bristol City news.

It is the Daily Star for one but ott??

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/championship-bristol-city-sheffield-united-28386233

We all know what tabloids are like etc.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

You missed standing marginally in an offside position than discreetly shoving Vyner as he jumped .

 

and as you say the little nudge too.  Re the nudge, I think you get away with it, but VAR rules out for offside.  It makes no odds what Vyner does afterwards, the offside is first.

[maxjak]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

and as you say the little nudge too.  Re the nudge, I think you get away with it, but VAR rules out for offside.  It makes no odds what Vyner does afterwards, the offside is first.

And as can be seen from your still.......the assistant ref is directly in line.  Someone (Utd Fan) claimed that as it was a header by our defender towards his own goal, that then overruled the offside.  You are much more aware of the rules than I am Dave, is there a case for the defender playing the attacker onside for that reason?

[kit]

Sharpe is challenging and involved in the play so he is offside. 

If the other guy was offside when the ball was played and sharpe wasn't in the picture at all then Vyners header would have meant he was then onside if that makes sense.

[maxjak]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Had a quick look at Bristol City news.

It is the Daily Star for one but ott??

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/championship-bristol-city-sheffield-united-28386233

We all know what tabloids are like etc.

Toilet Paper.........anyone see Norwood apologise for his far worse tackle?, at least Tanner (Taylor? tried to play the ball.  Norwood just went straight for the man.  Journo''s who work for comics like the star, do their reports from the local pub, whether it's on TV or not?

4 minutes ago, kit said:

Sharpe is challenging and involved in the play so he is offside. 

If the other guy was offside when the ball was played and sharpe wasn't in the picture at all then Vyners header would have meant he was then onside if that makes sense.

I Geddit.......Thanks.

Edited November 2, 2022 by maxjak

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Toilet Paper.........anyone see Norwood apologise for his far worse tackle?, at least Tanner (Taylor? tried to play the ball.  Norwood just went straight for the man.  Journo''s who work for comics like the star, do their reports from the local pub, whether it's on TV or not?

Oh it's a nonsense but anything for those clicks I guess...

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, maxjak said:

And as can be seen from your still.......the assistant ref is directly in line.  Someone (Utd Fan) claimed that as it was a header by our defender towards his own goal, that then overruled the offside.  You are much more aware of the rules than I am Dave, is there a case for the defender playing the attacker onside for that reason?

No, the offside comes first.

[Dan Robin]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Any chance anyone who was watching on Sky, recorded it etc can post the penalty shout we has turned down?

Seems not to be on the highlights. Which is odd, approaching 10 mins those highlights..

Not the first time it happens: the club shoul pay more attention on the channel's work, because the numerous refs decisions that go against us could be used as a proof to be showed to EFL/Refs Associations.

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, maxjak said:

And as can be seen from your still.......the assistant ref is directly in line.  Someone (Utd Fan) claimed that as it was a header by our defender towards his own goal, that then overruled the offside.  You are much more aware of the rules than I am Dave, is there a case for the defender playing the attacker onside for that reason?

No, cos Sharp is directly involved in play, hence Vyner having to header it. 

It's just so basic. The ball is being played to him. As the ball is played, Sharp is clearly offside. There can be zero debate about that. It's the most obvious offside you'll ever see. Yet the lino missed it. The flag should have gone up immediately from when the ball was crossed. That's the rules. You don't have to touch the ball to be offside. 

There is absolutely zero excuse for the lino to miss that. 

That Utd fan would only have a point IF Sharp would have been onside. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

Not the first time it happens: the club shoul pay more attention on the channel's work, because the numerous refs decisions that go against us could be used as a proof to be showed to EFL/Refs Associations.

Yes good point. There was another big penalty shout that wasn't shown earlier in the season or was maybe last season, although it seemed to be Sky commentary so I dunno who did the final edit.

Sykes red card, well he was clearly obstructed, the Bennett yellow that should habe been red...

When did we last get a major call in our favour, 'Phew, we really got away with one there' kinda thing.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes good point. There was another big penalty shout that wasn't shown earlier in the season, although it seemed to be Sky commentary so I dunno who did the final edit.

Sykes red card, well he was clearly obstructed, the Bennett yellow that should habe been red...

When did we last get a major call in our favour, 'Phew, we really got away with one there' kinda thing.

We just simply don't. We are constantly on the end of bad decisions and we get no luck the other way. It's baffling. 

But we need to be better at controlling our own destiny and then the luck aspect is irrelevant. 

[Cowshed]

40 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

Why are we surprised by the standard of refereeing? Go to any junior game and the ref gets abuse from the parents all game. Move up to youth and players feel free to treat the referee in a way that if it occurred in the work place they would be fired on the spot. Move to adult football and the ref gets verbal abuse and often the threat of physical abuse. Why would anybody take up refereeing? Far less do nowadays and so we have a smaller pool. No surprise that the quality is low. I think we need a major change from the top to the bottom. Only captains can talk to the ref. Any abuse from players is not tolerated, any abuse from the parents of spectators at amateur level and the game is abandoned and if the abuse is repeated the club is suspended for a year. Nobody in any walk of life should have to put up with the treatment referees get. They are human. They turn out at the weekend to get some exercise and enjoy being part of the game they love and get paid almost nothing. If we want better referees we need more, to get more we have to treat them in a better way. End of rant.

The standard of refereeing is high. Refereiing standards in England of similar levels to those in comparatiive lewagues in Europe, Ref efficiency is measured, Refs have to go through a rigorous process of many years to reach championship level, a process that also seems them demoted if their marks and evaluations fall below standards.

Refs will make errors, as did the City player giving the ball away under little pressure with options available last night and Utd score from the possession City conceded. The reaction on here to a pass a youth player could have made? None. 

Double standards?

City failed because the team failed not because a ref made errors and errors above ARE part of football. 

 Projecting failure onto offiicials is a weak mindset. Excuses are not solutions. Excuses are a flight response not a fighters. A major change is needed in footall. Self reflection where people look at themselves rather than projecting blame elsewhere. This should start at the top with respecting the game. It is top to bottom. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

We just simply don't. We are constantly on the end of bad decisions and we get no luck the other way. It's baffling. 

But we need to be better at controlling our own destiny and then the luck aspect is irrelevant. 

Couple of examples of how it had affected us and yes we score our chances last night, we win. Last night aside...

Hull away- Depending on POV, between 1 and 3 points cost through the penalty. I'm leaning towards 1 as Hull were putting us under some pressure 2nd half, others may argue 3 due to momentum etc.

Wigan away- Bennett yellow, not red. We were winning at that point and it was baking heat, 10 v 11, a goal down 15-20 mins in I think Wigan would have had a problem! As it turned out they came back very strongly but I would argue that the Bennett decision cost us 2 points.

Luton home- Now this didn't cost us as such but again, Sykes straight red. We were cruising at 11 v 11, could have been added to our margin but while the penalty on Atkinson was debatable and the Sykes red just he was clearly sandwiched between 2 not long before. Foul? He doesn't make the challenge, we maybe add to the scoreline. Or Freeman off same time for the shove, again much more comfortable.

That isn't to detract from the fact that Sykes was correctly sent off but at the same time, it shouldn't have reached that point or Freeman should have gone with him.

Sure there are others!! I think a number of our penalty calls this season have been arguable personally, but these clear errors have cost us.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[AppyDAZE]

Retrospective action, or doesn't it matter much because it's not Premier League?

Tanner out for 3 games, Norwood, nothing.

No wonder people tear their hair out over modern football.

[maxjak]

36 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

Not the first time it happens: the club shoul pay more attention on the channel's work, because the numerous refs decisions that go against us could be used as a proof to be showed to EFL/Refs Associations.

If someone had the time and means, i could imagine 10-15 occasions could be easily found and presented......whether it would have any effect, other  than immense frustration, i couldn't say?

[maxjak]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes good point. There was another big penalty shout that wasn't shown earlier in the season or was maybe last season, although it seemed to be Sky commentary so I dunno who did the final edit.

Sykes red card, well he was clearly obstructed, the Bennett yellow that should habe been red...

When did we last get a major call in our favour, 'Phew, we really got away with one there' kinda thing.

You mean just like Sheff Utd did last night.........three times?  Ha!

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Retrospective action, or doesn't it matter much because it's not Premier League?

Tanner out for 3 games, Norwood, nothing.

No wonder people tear their hair out over modern football.

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

[maxjak]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Are you really really sure?

How would in this industry where detail down to minutiae is measured would this conspiracy versus one team be missed?

 

The Grassy Knoll?

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Sheff Utd very cynical

And very much in the mix for promotion to the Prem.

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Had a quick look at Bristol City news.

It is the Daily Star for one but ott??

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/championship-bristol-city-sheffield-united-28386233

We all know what tabloids are like etc.

My God ….

have you seen Goldie Hawn ? 
 

[maxjak]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The standard of refereeing is high. Refereiing standards in England of similar levels to those in comparatiive lewagues in Europe, Ref efficiency is measured, Refs have to go through a rigorous process of many years to reach championship level, a process that also seems them demoted if their marks and evaluations fall below standards.

Refs will make errors, as did the City player giving the ball away under little pressure with options available last night and Utd score from the possession City conceded. The reaction on here to a pass a youth player could have made? None. 

Double standards?

City failed because the team failed not because a ref made errors and errors above ARE part of football. 

 Projecting failure onto offiicials is a weak mindset. Excuses are not solutions. Excuses are a flight response not a fighters. A major change is needed in footall. Self reflection where people look at themselves rather than projecting blame elsewhere. This should start at the top with respecting the game. It is top to bottom. 

I was just pondering.........do you have any involvement in refereeing?  You make a very interesting philosophical point in reference to blame, human error and responsibility. Yet despite your intriguing treatise, I am still of the opinion, that just like footballers, referee's need to improve their poor standards.  There are good reasons that the referee's we get at Ashton Gate and elsewhere are not officiating in the Premier League, that is because in general, they are Second Rate?

[marcofisher]

Does Tanner get a three game ban or one?

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

Does Tanner get a three game ban or one?

3 unfortunately

I see real growth in him

[Alessandro]

41 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

And very much in the mix for promotion to the Prem.

 

One man's cynical is another's streetwise. 

All part of the game and they did it well last night, getting away with most of it.

[Cowshed]

36 minutes ago, maxjak said:

I was just pondering.........do you have any involvement in refereeing?  You make a very interesting philosophical point in reference to blame, human error and responsibility. Yet despite your intriguing treatise, I am still of the opinion, that just like footballers, referee's need to improve their poor standards.  

I have been at a level where I have been modestly paid to play, coach and manage. I still coach and one of the things the ongoing coaching education includes is self-reflection. As part of the coaching and my own improvement I go to FA ran events for refs, Managers and coaches where refereeing, and rule changes ae discussed. 

A fact. Refereeing efficiency has not decreased, it’s the other way around over decades. The FA, leagues and IFAB who are responsible for the rules and how they are applied monitor efficiency. Refereeing in England up the pyramid via the PGMOL is intensely monitored, the refs are professional and highly skilled, they have to be and if standards drop, they are demoted. The process and ref pyramid from level seven refs upwards improves standards at each level. It is incrediibly hard to progress to semi pro level as a ref, past that is elite levels.

England’s refs are not second rate. If the refs were the EPL/EFL (purchasing highly skilled ref services) and the PGMOL (a business selling top quality ref services) would bring in refs from abroad, the ones whose efficiency is measured in La Liga etc who are actually performing at the same monitored standards of the PGMOL refs.

36 minutes ago, maxjak said:

.  There are good reasons that the referee's we get at Ashton Gate and elsewhere are not officiating in the Premier League, that is because in general, they are Second Rate?

Select one refs do EPL, Championship, div one, div two .. And some select one dont  because they are at standard, where they are on the super ref standard of EPL, FIFA, Europa and Champions leagues ..

Edited November 2, 2022 by Cowshed

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

One man's cynical is another's streetwise. 

All part of the game and they did it well last night, getting away with most of it.

My question therefore is, would we get away with similar. Something tells me we would not!

[Robbored]

Just watched the game again and as I thought last night City were far the better the team but yet again conceded a sloppy goal and everyone, fans, players and Nige were hugely frustrated with way in which it keeps happening.

Our goals have dried up but nobody can say that City aren’t creating chances - it’s simply because Lady Luck has deserted our forwards - hitting the woodwork twice just highlights that. Let’s hope our forwards can find their mojo against Lincoln and be fired up for the visit of Watford next Saturday.

Norwood should have got a straight red for his OTT tackle on Williams who was fortunate not get seriously injured and Tanner’s straight red was the right decision.

The Blades time wasting tactics must be a legacy from when Neil Warnock was in charge - was so obvious and only 8 mins added time was about 3 mins light imo.

Nige was bitter sweet about it post match tho………….

[maxjak]

33 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have been at a level where I have been modestly paid to play, coach and manage. I still coach and one of the things the ongoing coaching education includes is self-reflection. As part of the coaching and my own improvement I go to FA ran events for refs, Managers and coaches where refereeing, and rule changes ae discussed. 

A fact. Refereeing efficiency has not decreased, it’s the other way around over decades. The FA, leagues and IFAB who are responsible for the rules and how they are applied monitor efficiency. Refereeing in England up the pyramid via the PGMOL is intensely monitored, the refs are professional and highly skilled, they have to be and if standards drop, they are demoted. The process and ref pyramid from level seven refs upwards improves standards at each level. It is incrediibly hard to progress to semi pro level as a ref, past that is elite levels.

England’s refs are not second rate. If the refs were the EPL/EFL (purchasing highly skilled ref services) and the PGMOL (a business selling top quality ref services) would bring in refs from abroad, the ones whose efficiency is measured in La Liga etc who are actually performing at the same monitored standards of the PGMOL refs.

Select one refs do EPL, Championship, div one, div two .. And some select one dont  because they are at standard, where they are on the super ref standard of EPL, FIFA, Europa and Champions leagues ..

So I can be assured that Steve Martin will now be demoted, as he failed to do his job properly last night, he made 2, and possibly 3 major errors IMHO., and i should add not just mine.  If there was an assessor there yesterday, surely he would be aware that the referee and assistant referee made blatant enough mistakes to have affected the ultimate outcome of the game?  The object of the exercise is to referee the match, and not make make markedly incorrect  significant decisions that decide the fate of the result?  

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, maxjak said:

So I can be assured that Steve Martin will now be demoted, as he failed to do his job properly last night, he made 2, and possibly 3 major errors IMHO., and i should add not just mine.  If there was an assessor there yesterday, surely he would be aware that the referee and assistant referee made blatant enough mistakes to have affected the ultimate outcome of the game?  The object of the exercise is to referee the match, and not make make markedly incorrect  significant decisions that decide the fate of the result?  

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

The more I watch the close up of it, the more it makes my skin crawl. That was a potentially career ending challenge. 

You can actually see Williams leg bend backwards. He is extremely lucky to have not broken something. 

[Peter1450]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

Are refs made/ expected to watch a game back and learn from said perceived errors or do they just crack on to the next poor buggers?

[maxjak]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The possible offside v  Sharp isnt blatant. It is subjective x a degree of physical where a linseman would have to use primary focus, peripheral focus and subjective judgement at speed. Error there has to occur occassionally as humans are human. 

If the referee falls under a consistent standard yes they would be demoted. If your perceived standard of this refere is a consistent reality the referee will be demoted. Demotion will mean they will lose their job. Some refs are demoted from the PGMOL and at later date promoted again after improvement in consistency. 

Would you sack a player after two or possibly three errors?  

No i would not sack a player after 2 or 3 errors........and your comparison is absurd IMHO.  To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision.  By making that statement your initial credibility has just ceased to exist.  Good Luck with your campaign to highlight the wonderful standard of Referee's...........i can imagine you were also a supporter  of Liz Truss  ?

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Who was the summariser?

I remember when we won up there with a late Flint goal (Paterson scored a worldie first half), Michael Brown did that game, I thought he was going to start crying or phone The Samaritans at the final whistle, ridiculously biased.

I don’t know but they were really annoying 

[Cowshed]

Just now, maxjak said:

No i would not sack a player after 2 or 3 errors........and your comparison is absurd IMHO.  To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision.  By making that statement your initial credibility has just ceased to exist. 

The comparison is not absurd.

Bristol City players make errors leading to?

Refs and linesmen make occassional errors that may lead to? 

You were apparantly thinking refs should be sacked after one bad game, Sacked from employment. If refs are to be sacked after errors on that scalethe EPL/EFL/PGMOL are going to have to bring in a huge number of refs from abroad to hire and sack, refs who are of the same measured standrads, and who will also make errors.

Now that is an absurdity.

7 minutes ago, maxjak said:

 To say that the offside was subjective is an observation worthy of derision. 

Part of law 11 is subjectiive isn't it? 

The linesman has to make a call that involves variables of line, proximity, prescience, movement and on. Its not black and white.

16 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Good Luck with your campaign to highlight the wonderful standard of Referee's.

 I am answering your questions. 

17 minutes ago, maxjak said:

.i can imagine you were also a supporter  of 

Don't imagine. Labour not that is a measure of trust, Blairs WMD's that could be launched in 45 secs have not been found yet.

[Fammyfan]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Its not baffling, it costs, and the industry in the championship doesn't cover it yet.

No team would be better off points wise beyond a very short term. Unless you believe there is a conspiracy v Bristol City refereeing error is chance (luck). Luck is a consistent across all teams, luck occurs in even measure where refereeing errors even out across teams over months and seasons.

So the cost of it being implemented in Scotland has ranged from £67k to £195k per club per season, whilst this isn’t necessarily low cost, it’s small in the grand scheme of the millions at stake in the Championship.

We have had numerous costly decisions wrongly go against us and seemingly no big decisions wrongly in our favour in order to balance out. In the last 3 seasons we’ve been awarded 3 penalties (last one being 6 November 2021) and had 17 awarded against us.

With this considered, whilst there will still be errors, these will be reduced. If errors are due to a reduced standard of refereeing, VAR will provide a much needed aid. If errors are due to an issue against Bristol City, VAR will expose the inappropriate decisions.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Fammyfan

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Fammyfan said:

So the cost of it being implemented in Scotland has ranged from £67k to £195k per club per season, whilst this isn’t necessarily low cost, it’s small in the grand scheme of the millions at stake in the Championship.

We have had numerous costly decisions wrongly go against us and seemingly no big decisions wrongly in our favour in order to balance out. In the last 3 seasons we’ve been awarded 3 penalties (last one being 6 November 2021) and had 17 awarded against us.

With this considered, whilst there will still be errors, these will be reduced. If errors are due to a reduced standard of refereeing, VAR will provide a much needed aid. If errors are due to an issue against Bristol City, VAR will expose the inappropriate decisions.

 

I have not stated that VAR doesnt reduce errors, I have stated in another thread that VAR improves efficiency, That efficiency is quantified by IFAB the FA etc.

Yes VAR will expose. It exposes refs. Refs that are under pressure, and ridiculed, and disrepected. These are good people, decent people who are not cheats, are not incompetant etc. These refs are highly hiighly skiilled, that is how they get through a process.

VAR does not breed respect for officialdom. Respect is much needed in football where we are seeing at grass roots level child refs being abuse, Bristol leagues being postponed due4 to the levels of abuse, Bristol refs having to call the police to get out of car parks safely at kids game .. That abuse, a crisis is a national picture and is being fed from the top down.

Thousads of refs are giving the game up. More than are being recruited. These are good people, decent people. 

Yes there will still be errors. Yes there is still the cycle of disrepects aimed at refs in the EPL and that cycle will be iin the EFL.

 Priorities? Respect? The well being of the game? 

[maxjak]

35 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The comparison is not absurd.

Bristol City players make errors leading to?

Refs and linesmen make occassional errors that may lead to? 

You were apparantly thinking refs should be sacked after one bad game, Sacked from employment. If refs are to be sacked after errors on that scalethe EPL/EFL/PGMOL are going to have to bring in a huge number of refs from abroad to hire and sack, refs who are of the same measured standrads, and who will also make errors.

Now that is an absurdity.

Part of law 11 is subjectiive isn't it? 

The linesman has to make a call that involves variables of line, proximity, prescience, movement and on. Its not black and white.

 I am answering your questions. 

Don't imagine. Labour not that is a measure of trust, Blairs WMD's that could be launched in 45 secs have not been found yet.

I suggested Referee's should be demoted, and possibly suspended, while re trained.......not sacked...........As to your other replies?.  How can something which is either On or Off be subjective?  Look up Subjective in a Dictionary?  I appreciate that you obviously see yourself as some kind of wordsmith...... but Tautology is also in the Dictionary, between Supercilious and Unctuous.........and how ever many ways you wish to express it, I suggest we     leave it there, as it is apparent that we will never agree.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I have not stated that VAR doesnt reduce errors, I have stated in another thread that VAR improves efficiency, That efficiency is quantified by IFAB the FA etc.

Yes VAR will expose. It exposes refs. Refs that are under pressure, and ridiculed, and disrepected. These are good people, decent people who are not cheats, are not incompetant etc. These refs are highly hiighly skiilled, that is how they get through a process.

VAR does not breed respect for officialdom. Respect is much needed in football where we are seeing at grass roots level child refs being abuse, Bristol leagues being postponed due4 to the levels of abuse, Bristol refs having to call the police to get out of car parks safely at kids game .. That abuse, a crisis is a national picture and is being fed from the top down.

Thousads of refs are giving the game up. More than are being recruited. These are good people, decent people. 

Yes there will still be errors. Yes there is still the cycle of disrepects aimed at refs in the EPL and that cycle will be iin the EFL.

 Priorities? Respect? The well being of the game? 

I believe you are well informed about referees and how they are selected, trained and observed for future involvement at the appropriate level, I have two questions that you may be able to throw light upon.

Why do some referees when they are dishing out cards take what seems an enormity of time to also speak/lecture the player, thereby using up valuable time which is never in my opinion recovered as additional time? I can see no benefit to the wronged team in this happening, it merely serves to benefit the wrongdoing by stopping play for longer than is necessary.

Secondly why do some referees also have a lengthy conversation with a player without brandishing a card? In this age of so called professionalism do they seriously think the players take any notice of them at all.

I would be interested to know the ratio between players being given one yellow compared to two yellows, and how many fouls players given one yellow go on to make, I appreciate  that not all fouls warrant a yellow card, but is it proven that the first yellow acts as both a punishment and a deterrent to further fouls, or do referees display more leniency toward players who have already received a yellow.

[Cowshed]

Just now, maxjak said:

  How can something which is either On or Off be subjective?  Look up Subjective in a Dictionary? 

Because a player can be in an offside position but will not be penalised as they are not involved in active play. The whys of are open to the refs interpretation of the rules. The offsiide rule is open to discretion. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Cowshed said:

Because a player can be in an offside position but will not be penalised as they are not involved in active play. The whys of are open to the refs interpretation of the rules. The offsiide rule is open to discretion. 

But Sharp was involved in play.

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

I believe you are well informed about referees and how they are selected, trained and observed for future involvement at the appropriate level, I have two questions that you may be able to throw light upon.

Why do some referees when they are dishing out cards take what seems an enormity of time to also speak/lecture the player, thereby using up valuable time which is never in my opinion recovered as additional time? I can see no benefit to the wronged team in this happening, it merely serves to benefit the wrongdoing by stopping play for longer than is necessary.

 

If you add all stoppages onto a game it becomes two and half hours long. Stoppages are demed what are normal and appropriate. Norms across leagues and Countries reflect its all very standard.

26 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

 

Secondly why do some referees also have a lengthy conversation with a player without brandishing a card? In this age of so called professionalism do they seriously think the players take any notice of them at all.

.

Refs should speak to players. Players do need information of why, what for, the consequences of what is next and some yes will not give a toss.  

28 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

I would be interested to know the ratio between players being given one yellow compared to two yellows, and how many fouls players given one yellow go on to make, I appreciate  that not all fouls warrant a yellow card, but is it proven that the first yellow acts as both a punishment and a deterrent to further fouls, 

Don't know Opinion here bookings moderate persistent infringements because its the last resort. As a player will I foul again when I know the next sanction is I am off? No I wont. 

 

[johnheadbcfc]

7 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

I don't think anyone has said it wasn't a deserved red?

See first page

[MarcusX]

8 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I personally believe that Norwood was a deliberate stamp over the ball. This bad tackle was early in the game before that downpour in the second half and should have got a red card!

Tanner's legs went from under him on the saturated pitch and he was unable to control where he ended up. I therefore consider that while it wasn't deliberate, it still deserved a red because the outcome was dangerous.

Totally inconsistent refereeing again. He missed the second half body block in the second half which I believe was a definite penalty for City.

Overall, City are still looking like a team of gentlemen against a side with every trick in the book. We really do need to toughen up to stay up!

 

 

No it wasn’t, Williams only came on in the 80th minute. Egans yellow was 81 so that’s when it happened

[Portland Bill]

Sharpe was offside no doubt, the Lino should have seen that.

The tackle/foul on Williams should have been a red, no doubt about it, if the referee had seen it ( which he clearly couldn’t of, because every referee would have given a red card in that instance). 
 

Tanner’s was 100% a red, no argument there, his opponent has quick feet and was just too quick for Tanner this time.

The other one bought up is Wells and a penalty, absolutely no chance. Just good defending, Wells let himself get bullied by a stronger player.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Portland Bill said:

Sharpe was offside no doubt, the Lino should have seen that.

The tackle/foul on Williams should have been a red, no doubt about it, if the referee had seen it ( which he clearly couldn’t of, because every referee would have given a red card in that instance). 
 

Tanner’s was 100% a red, no argument there, his opponent has quick feet and was just too quick for Tanner this time.

The other one bought up is Wells and a penalty, absolutely no chance. Just good defending, Wells let himself get bullied by a stronger player.

 

Agreed with your post for the most part, last bit? Dunno travelling at speed as Wells was, even a slight nudge can send you flying then again it is a contact sport. I'm leaning towards penalty but certainly not nailed on.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

But Sharp was involved in play.

I agree, but the experts with a whistle and flag did not. Even experts and that is what they are will make errors, or see the game differently in a fleeting moment. 

 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I agree, but the experts with a whistle and flag did not. Even experts and that is what they are will make errors, or see the game differently in a fleeting moment. 

 

 

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

[W-S-M Seagull]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

The problem isn't VAR. The problem is with how it's used and so far in the PL I think it's been used incorrectly and not efficiently. 

Do you think TMO impacts upon the refs in rugby? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

One more observation. Posted it elsewhere, proviso I assume the stats are accurate.

We are 17th for fouls committed this season but...

*Have two entries who are joint top for individual yellow cards (4 players have 7, of these Scott and Williams make an appearance).

*2nd for yellow cards as a team (top 4 each have 44 apiece, we have 40).

*3rd for red cards. (We have 2, Blackpool have 4, and Cardiff 3).

*Joint 3rd for penalties against (Hull have 4, Cardiff, Birmingham and Huddersfield 3 apiece).

Clearly we need to be smarter too.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Timekeeping isnt the responsibilty of the ref in pro football, fourth official there

The game exists without VAR. We dont need it. VAR does not improve the experience for everbody.

VAR undermines refs because instead of focussing on the ref being the official in charge, and that role being respected focus is on error. Refs still get criticised and abused and so does VAR .. A prediction I made becaause that a is a nature of humans.

VAR does not break the cancerous cycle of abuse of refs in the game. VAR wont recruit or improve the crisis in ref recruitment at grass roots level feeding into the games pyramid . Linesman are being reduced to individuals carrying a flag. The refs role gets dumbed down. 

Development? Progression? Impact on game? Respect? 

The game is being damaged. Each seaason football loses thousands more refs than it recruits. VAR could be adding to the haemorrhage.

Out of interest, how does the 4th official “tot-up” the time to be added.  I’m led to believe it’s 30s for each goal and each batch of subs, e.g. 2 goals and 6 batches of subs equals +4m.  But what about injuries, time wasting (even if by crowd not throwing ball back), etc?  Does he keep a tally?

I appreciate normal ball going out of play and retrieved isn’t added.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Davefevs

[Hamdon Mart]

I've not seen it mentioned anywhere in the aftermath of the game but I'm fairly sure Alex Scott was caught by a stray arm from McBurnie last night. I only saw the last bit before Scott went down but I'm almost certain that McBurnie was sent on with instructions to clobber Scott as he was playing so well.

And to answer someone's question further up the thread. I sat next to a former league ref at the last Rovers game and the assessors have special software that they use during the match to record KMI's (I think they're called, Key Major Incidents?). Assessor makes notes, he then gets sent footage of the game post match and they have a debrief with the referee the day after. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Hamdon Mart

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Hamdon Mart said:

I've not seen it mentioned anywhere in the aftermath of the game but I'm fairly sure Alex Scott was caught by a stray arm from McBurnie last night. I only saw the last bit before Scott went down but I'm almost certain that McBurnie was sent off with instructions to clobber Scott as he was playing so well.

And to answer someone's question further up the thread. I sat next to a former league ref at the last Rovers game and the assessors have special software that they use during the match to record KMI's (I think they're called, Key Major Incidents?). Assessor makes notes, he then gets sent footage of the game post match and they have a debrief with the referee the day after. 

Was that when Scott ran into the back of him?

[Hamdon Mart]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Was that when Scott ran into the back of him?

Ah, is that what happened? I only saw the last bit where he went down. Was just by the away dugout? 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Hamdon Mart said:

Ah, is that what happened? I only saw the last bit where he went down. Was just by the away dugout? 

Yes, he stood his ground and Scott ran into the back of him.

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed with your post for the most part, last bit? Dunno travelling at speed as Wells was, even a slight nudge can send you flying then again it is a contact sport. I'm leaning towards penalty but certainly not nailed on.

The thing is, this was a common coming together, it happens all over the pitch at different stages in every game. These are accepted as ‘part of the game’ nowadays. 

[Portland Bill]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, how does the 4th official “tot-up” the time to be added.  I’m led to believe it’s 30s for each goal and each batch of subs, e.g. 2 goals and 6 batches of subs equals +4m.  But what about injuries, time wasting (even if by crowd not throwing ball back), etc?  Does he keep a tally?

I appreciate normal ball going out of play and retrieved isn’t added.

The fourth official doesn’t tally it up, the referee tells him what it is.

 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The fourth official doesn’t tally it up, the referee tells him what it is.

 

How does he do it then!

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Countryfile said:

Which is why we need VAR as intended, to correct human error.

Expecting the officials to get every decision right is asking the impossible,  expecting clear errors to be corrected by referral when peoples livelihood’s are at stake is blindingly obvious.

Two things would improve the football experience for everyone immediately, VAR and taking the timekeeping away from the referee.

Thats not say that VAR is perfect, yes it will need refinement, but it’s got to be better than clear injustices benefiting those who have broken the rules.

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

How does he do it then!

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Portland Bill

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Ta, he didn’t stop it for long enough then

[Lew-T]

13 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I was watching on sky last night - are you talking about the Nahki pen shout?

IMO - it would have been a soft one. Nahki gets slightly ahead of the defender, both players had arms on each other IIRC, ball not really under control and it looked like Wells 'left' his legs trailing looking for contact then went down, quite softly. Think the commentators said, not a penalty. Certainly wasn't stonewall - but you've seen them given!

R.E other key flash points, it's a poor night for the officials - 1) offside goal 2) Norwood red. Generally ref lost control and you could see it coming - Sheff Utd very cynical. 

I think it’s a clumsy shove from their player on Wells, so I wouldn’t say it’s soft at all. The Sheff Utd lad runs right across Wells, shoves him away whilst unbalanced and falls over.

It was more than your average shoulder to shoulder IMO.

[The Constant Rabbit]

After a good nights sleep......

That foul by Norwood ranks up there with one of the worst fouls I have ever seen not given.

 

Potentially leg breaking, career ending with deliberate intent - disgraceful.

 

I'm not one for retrospective action from the FA normally (except to overturn incorrect Red Cards) - but my god, if Norwood doesn't get some form of sanction against him, then there is no justice left in football.

An apology to Williams would be a good start.

 

I have no idea what goes through a blokes mind to make them want to break an opponents leg in front of 17,000 people, live on TV.

 

At the very least City should be asking for a 'please explain' from the FA regarding the refereeing over that 'tackle'.

[Olé]

18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It is possible retrospective action could be taken…but I wouldn’t hold your breath!

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.