Norwood's Foul on Williams - Why no Red Card?

[Midred]

43 minutes ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

Trouble is, every time our players get in the ref's ear they get booked for dissent.

[downendcity]

11 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

For me human error is part of football. Officials make mistakes yes, but the players make a whole lot more!.

I don’t want the ‘perfect’ game, I want football as it always has been, unpredictable. 
I hate the way the game is going,it’s not a tv programme, it’s a sport where anything can happen.

Plymouth v Exeter on Monday night was the sort of game I want to watch, none of this VAR rubbish. Just give me good honest football without the cheating and diving….. please. 

He stops his watch when he feels he has to, it’s really that simple Dave. Or one of his watches I should say.

Not sure his watch would let him.

[downendcity]

10 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

After a good nights sleep......

That foul by Norwood ranks up there with one of the worst fouls I have ever seen not given.

 

Potentially leg breaking, career ending with deliberate intent - disgraceful.

 

I'm not one for retrospective action from the FA normally (except to overturn incorrect Red Cards) - but my god, if Norwood doesn't get some form of sanction against him, then there is no justice left in football.

An apology to Williams would be a good start.

 

I have no idea what goes through a blokes mind to make them want to break an opponents leg in front of 17,000 people, live on TV.

 

At the very least City should be asking for a 'please explain' from the FA regarding the refereeing over that 'tackle'.

Reminded me of this one ( other than Keane's was borne out of revenge!)

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

I remember Lee Johnson once saying something about the Wolves bench I think it might have been. How each and every single person on that bench jumped up at every decision and he bemoaned that we don't do that. 

We are too nice, that's our culture. I think that probably comes from the fact SL is really nice and wants his clubs to win the right way, because his clubs are a reflection on him. I think the nice direction comes from SL. I think Nige may have to have a very difficult conversation with him that in order for us to succeed, we need to add these dark arts to our game. No one likes it, but if you don't do it, you lose. 

I've never really seen a season like this in the Championship, pretty much most games I've seen us play and other Championship games on TV, the shithousery is like I've never seen before. I don't know if that's because the league is so poor or what. Burnley aside, it seems the shithousery teams are doing pretty well. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I remember Lee Johnson once saying something about the Wolves bench I think it might have been. How each and every single person on that bench jumped up at every decision and he bemoaned that we don't do that. 

We are too nice, that's our culture. I think that probably comes from the fact SL is really nice and wants his clubs to win the right way, because his clubs are a reflection on him. I think the nice direction comes from SL. I think Nige may have to have a very difficult conversation with him that in order for us to succeed, we need to add these dark arts to our game. No one likes it, but if you don't do it, you lose. 

I've never really seen a season like this in the Championship, pretty much most games I've seen us play and other Championship games on TV, the shithousery is like I've never seen before. I don't know if that's because the league is so poor or what. Burnley aside, it seems the shithousery teams are doing pretty well. 

The problem is, how do we square the circle given that we seem to get penalised more often than many for similar offences.

How do we do this more smartly may be another way of looking at it? Did we not get 2-3 booked at Sheffield United last season for kicking the ball away? Yellow card can be fine but is a tight rope.

Causation isn't correlation but 17th for fouls committed vs 3rd for yellow cards received is a bit of a mismatch??

There are loads of similar stats if the figures are right and we delve into them correctly. Why for example have Luton only received 28 yellow cards despite being 2nd for fouls committed?

Why did us and Birmingham jointly each have 9 penalties awarded against despite them being 2nd and us being 19th in Fouls Committed? Last season I mean.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The problem is, how do we square the circle given that we seem to get penalised more often than many for similar offences.

How do we do this more smartly may be another way of looking at it? Did we not get 2-3 booked at Sheffield United last season for kicking the ball away? Yellow card can be fine but is a tight rope.

Causation isn't correlation but 17th for fouls committed vs 3rd for yellow cards received is a bit of a mismatch??

There are loads of similar stats if the figures are right and we delve into them correctly. Why for example have Luton only received 28 yellow cards despite being 2nd for fouls committed?

Why did us and Birmingham jointly each have 9 penalties awarded against despite them being 2nd and us being 19th in Fouls Committed? Last season I mean.

By changing perceptions? 

From the outside, we are considered a nice club. Where as Sheffield Utd have a bit of a reputation. When they do something a bit naughty it's "well its Sheffield Utd, that's what they do" where as when we do it it's "oh you're Bristol City, you're not supposed to do this" 

That's the only thing I can think of. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

By changing perceptions? 

From the outside, we are considered a nice club. Where as Sheffield Utd have a bit of a reputation. When they do something a bit naughty it's "well its Sheffield Utd, that's what they do" where as when we do it it's "oh you're Bristol City, you're not supposed to do this" 

That's the only thing I can think of. 

Matches should be judged individually and on merit. Although I understand how reputation can carry, e.g. if a player goes down easily.

Perhaps, and that's an interesting argument though it was Warnock and others, probably not so much under Wilder but he was quite a footballing manager. I digress.

The foul to yellow card ratio, while quite dry is also quite revealing. I don't have time now but might make a couple of graphs for that across this and last season, likewise my work on Shot/Penalty ratios which I might restart soon.

Yet the fact that we are 17th for fouls shows that we are far from a dirty side, and more sinned against than sinned by some way.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Picture speaks a thousand words as they say. @W-S-M Seagull

Decent spread of sides reputation wise etc in this snapshot.

As we can see, proportionately we surely can't be the only ones wirh a softer reputation, perhaps Swansea another? Reading are in a similar bracket.

Then again Reading when it comes to penalties are much better off.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[GrahamC]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

They’ll study the McBurnie tackle and then give Bailey Wright a three match ban.

On a more serious note (and I deliberately left it 24 hours to come on OTIB as I was fuming - instead I put my energy into getting hold of the Sky footage as @Curr Avon highlighted) - in the run up to the game Nigel Pearson spoke at length to Sky chapter and verse about this club being too nice and about making us more streetwise. It was a great interview.

But clearly he's so far failed because the only difference in severity between the Tanner and McBurnie tackle is their team reacted with apoplexy, and we didn't. They knew what they were doing, even if it was half as bad they'd have milked it to give the ref something else to distract him. But the point is once they scored it was dark arts from then on to the end.

They were either gaming the ref or in his ear. As @1960maaan points out they even made the feeble ref jog around after them just to give them their bookings. They completely owned the ref by the end. So who from our side was getting on at the ref to jolt some sense into him? Who from our side was reacting with fury in the same way at the McBurnie tackle?

No one.

I really like Nigel Pearson and I liked that interview but I'll take what he said with a pinch of salt until I see his side actually play with that collective siege mentality and demanding, single minded attitude to all around them including the ref.

Under Pearson I have seen far more evidence of us doing this, Weimann (when he was a target of the FBC podcast) was frequently being castigated on here too by one poster for repeatedly moaning at the ref. James also does this, so do Martin & King.

Interesting to me that these are all players he has signed or re-signed, I also noticed Max O’Leary was straight in there confronting George Baldock in the post foul brawl.

I don’t know how we square the circle over being a team that is given far too few penalties & disproportionately more bookings compared to fouls committed, but agree that we do need to continue to work at being less of a soft touch, not only physically but mentally.

Edited November 3, 2022 by GrahamC

[Alessandro]

13 hours ago, Lew-T said:

I think it’s a clumsy shove from their player on Wells, so I wouldn’t say it’s soft at all. The Sheff Utd lad runs right across Wells, shoves him away whilst unbalanced and falls over.

It was more than your average shoulder to shoulder IMO.

Fair enough, I’d like to see it again to be honest.

I think whenever I see a pen shout I try and think, “how would I feel if it was given against us?”

In this case, maybe a little hard done by - yeah there’s contact and it’s clumsy from the defender but first view thought it was 50/50 on pushing and shoving and then Wells looked for it a bit?

As I said though I’ve seen them given and we don’t seem to be getting rub of green on these types of decisions….

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Fair enough, I’d like to see it again to be honest.

I think whenever I see a pen shout I try and think, “how would I feel if it was given against us?”

In this case, maybe a little hard done by - yeah there’s contact and it’s clumsy from the defender but first view thought it was 50/50 on pushing and shoving and then Wells looked for it a bit?

As I said though I’ve seen them given and we don’t seem to be getting rub of green on these types of decisions….

I think travelling at speed, saw it online somewhere will share- travelling at speed as Wells was there is a reasonable case for the award IMO. Dunno if we're talking about the same one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Matches should be judged individually and on merit. Although I understand how reputation can carry, e.g. if a player goes down easily.

Perhaps, and that's an interesting argument though it was Warnock and others, probably not so much under Wilder but he was quite a footballing manager. I digress.

The foul to yellow card ratio, while quite dry is also quite revealing. I don't have time now but might make a couple of graphs for that across this and last season, likewise my work on Shot/Penalty ratios which I might restart soon.

Yet the fact that we are 17th for fouls shows that we are far from a dirty side, and more sinned against than sinned by some way.

This might be a bad example but I'll give it a go. 

Imagine at school there is a child that always misbehaves. They may get punished for some of the serious things but a lot of the time things go unpunished. 

You then have a child that always displays good behaviour. They are nice, kind and polite. But one day they do something that the misbehaving child gets away with, but they get punished for it. Despite it being the same rules for both. 

I think that's what we are, the nice well behaving child. So when we do step out of line, we therefore get punished more. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

@Mr Popodopolous When Norwood did that horror challenge on Williams, I don't think any of our players really reacted to it. 

However when Tanner did his challenge, look how all the Sheffield players acted? 

It's them things we need to start doing. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

I think it’s more a penalty than not a penalty, but it isn’t clear cut for me.

The acid test for me is, would you have given a free-kick for it on the halfway line?  If yes, it’s a penalty, if not, then fair enough.  Where it happens is irrelevant. Contact is allowed.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Davefevs

[Lew-T]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

It just looks a penalty to me. The lad isn’t in control of the situation when shielding/shouldering the ball. 
 

Clumsy enough for a pen IMO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think it’s more a penalty than not a penalty, but it isn’t clear cut for me.

The acid test for me is, would you have given a free-kick for it on the halfway line?  If yes, it’s a penalty, if not, then fair enough.  Where it happens is irrelevant. Contact is allowed.

Agreed.

18 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

It just looks a penalty to me. The lad isn’t in control of the situation when shielding/shouldering the ball. 
 

Clumsy enough for a pen IMO.

Inclined to agree but they are allowing for more physical contact this season seemingly and there seem to be less penalties awarded per game at Championship than in recent years which is irritating timing for us because we have improved our attacking intent and output in the last 12 months or so. Was Wells truly impeded or might he have gone down a little easily?

More penalty than non though I think.

Statistically though, there were less awarded as a ratio per game in 2021-22 than in 2020-21 and so far I think it maybe slightly down again.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fwiw I read some of the responses on Twitter. Two neutrals.

A Coventry fan said dive, Fulham fan reckoned soft as hell if given.

[old parkender]

VAR would 100% give that as a pen, he’s not only barrelled into wells nowhere near the ball but also clipped his leg for good measure, no way could wells stay on his feet under that challenge. 

[Super]

5 minutes ago, old parkender said:

VAR would 100% give that as a pen, he’s not only barrelled into wells nowhere near the ball but also clipped his leg for good measure, no way could wells stay on his feet under that challenge. 

I don't think it would. Did he even clip his leg? Hard to tell from that video

Edited November 3, 2022 by Super

[1960maaan]

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

[Super]

11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

I still think that's 50/50. I wouldn't be happy that given against us that's for sure. 

[Red-Robbo]

The contact looks like it's outside the box for one thing. 

[old parkender]

44 minutes ago, Super said:

I don't think it would. Did he even clip his leg? Hard to tell from that video

He’s come right across him with his leg, ball nowhere near, I’m baffled how that wasn’t deemed a foul

[Super]

10 minutes ago, old parkender said:

He’s come right across him with his leg, ball nowhere near, I’m baffled how that wasn’t deemed a foul

Like RR says it's outside the box

[Slacker]

Wonder what would have been given if the incident was the other way round?Who would bet against Sheff Utd being given the penalty?

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Super said:

I still think that's 50/50. I wouldn't be happy that given against us that's for sure. 

Yeah all about opinions, but I would expect that to be given every time, at least against us. I'm surprised I even shouted for this at the time, nearly at the stage where if one of ours was punched in the box, I'd shrug and say "we'll never get those"

[RedEd73]

On 02/11/2022 at 11:25, Davefevs said:

No, the offside comes first.

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread. 

I'm sure a couple of years ago home v Boro and Britt Assombalonga was about 5 yards offside when the ball was played forward, but the ref played on, he scored and the goal stood because Taylor Moore headed the ball back towards his own goal. I recall Sky saying that if TM hadn't played the ball it would have been offside, but his touch played BA onside (even though he was clearly off when the original ball was played forward).

What's the difference here? 

[old parkender]

1 hour ago, Super said:

Like RR says it's outside the box

Contentious whether in or out the box but the fact remains it was a foul and should have been at the least a free kick. To get absolutely nothing from that is scandalous 

[Curr Avon]

We've complained to the FA, but they're not taking it seriously.

[kit]

2 hours ago, RedEd73 said:

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread. 

I'm sure a couple of years ago home v Boro and Britt Assombalonga was about 5 yards offside when the ball was played forward, but the ref played on, he scored and the goal stood because Taylor Moore headed the ball back towards his own goal. I recall Sky saying that if TM hadn't played the ball it would have been offside, but his touch played BA onside (even though he was clearly off when the original ball was played forward).

What's the difference here? 

Assombalonga wasn't challenging for the ball or with taylor moore at the time, from memory he was at least 5 yards from him if not even further.

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, kit said:

Assombalonga wasn't challenging for the ball or with taylor moore at the time, from memory he was at least 5 yards from him if not even further.

Assombalonga might’ve actually been onside also….it was really tight….just looked bad because he’d timed his run well and was well beyond Moore when Moore glanced it into his path.

TV view doesn’t help, but remember seeing a different view at the time and I was amazed how tight it was.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Davefevs

[semblar]

16 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

No intention to play the ball, for me it's a Pen.

Trying to see why it wasn't given.
Pic 1;
I think this is where the Ref could see it as shoulder to shoulder, but as I say, he barges into the player while not trying to win the ball,

Pic 2;
Leg raised, arm raised and just wanted to stop Wells getting near the ball. The defending player is actually running away from the ball, it's one thing being stringer in the challenge, but your intent has to be to get the ball.
The more annoying thing for me is some of the ones you see given. We never seem to get those could/should/maybe ones.
Short of ABH I don't ever see us getting a Pen ever again.
 

The highlighted phrase is the key for me. On each individual occasion across the last couple of years the consensus seems to be "I've seen those given".... but they appear to never be given in our favour!

[Super]

1 hour ago, semblar said:

The highlighted phrase is the key for me. On each individual occasion across the last couple of years the consensus seems to be "I've seen those given".... but they appear to never be given in our favour!

It would have been a free kick not a pen.

[hinsleburg]

16 hours ago, Slacker said:

Wonder what would have been given if the incident was the other way round?Who would bet against Sheff Utd being given the penalty?

For what it's worth, my first thought was Free Kick as thought it was outside the box.

However, it does look very similar to the Swansea appeal on Saturday (not seen a replay) which also wasn't given so at least there's been an element of consistency across the 2 games.

[Midred]

21 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fwiw I read some of the responses on Twitter. Two neutrals.

A Coventry fan said dive, Fulham fan reckoned soft as hell if given.

Would the Fulham fan say that if it was Mitrovic?

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, Midred said:

Would the Fulham fan say that if it was Mitrovic?

Well quite. Although my point is that neutral views don't necessarily come down on the side of penalty.

I'm still leaning towards penalty fwiw.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

Strange with how many incidents within the penalty area when a defender falls over a free kick is awarded.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Dunno whether you're talking in general but.

Higher bar...you're merely unconvincing an attacking side, I say merely whereas a penalty is a good chance of an actual goal.

IMO anyway. Higher bar for a penalty...However our bar is somewhere up in the stratosphere!!

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wrong thread!!

Edited November 4, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Midred]

19 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno whether you're talking in general but.

Higher bar...you're merely unconvincing an attacking side, I say merely whereas a penalty is a good chance of an actual goal.

IMO anyway. Higher bar for a penalty...However our bar is somewhere up in the stratosphere!!

I was thinking of an incident towards the end of the match when we were attacking and one of their players went down because he felt contact  and the referee awarded a free kick straightaway. I think by then they knew whose side the ref was on!

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Midred said:

I was thinking of an incident towards the end of the match when we were attacking and one of their players went down because he felt contact  and the referee awarded a free kick straightaway. I think by then they knew whose side the ref was on!

There was 2/3 occasions early first half, Wells was pushed, tripped and eventually the guy went straight through the back of him. He never got one of those decisions . 
Obviously there is no agenda against us, but those occasions seem to rack up, and the Penalty stats are laughable.

[GlastonburyRed]

So, no-one had a retrospective look at this? Assuming it was an ok tackle then!

[cidercity1987]

Sky at it again defending shocking tackles from the Sheffield thugs. Nasty follow through on Benson there 'nothing wrong with that' says Hinchcliffe

[GlastonburyRed]

Oh dear, they're one-nil down.

[Packman]

Was just about to post the same, surely Norwood shouldn't be playing? Not that it really matters to us but I'm amazed they didn't ban him.

 

[Midred]

Sheffield equalise from a corner that should have been a goal kick!

[Sleepy1968]

7 minutes ago, Midred said:

Sheffield equalise from a corner that should have been a goal kick!

But have a shocker trying to bring the ball out of defence and order is restored (2-1 Burnley)

[Red Army 75]

2-2, Come on Burnley, really dislike this Sheffield United side

Edited November 5, 2022 by Red Army 75

[Midred]

Off topic, brilliant lobbed goal from half way gives FGR 2 - 0 win at South Shields.

[Midred]

15 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

2-2, Come on Burnley, really dislike this Sheffield United side

Jammy buggers make it 3 - 2!

[Red Army 75]

2 minutes ago, Midred said:

Jammy buggers make it 3 - 2!

4-2 now, expect the play acting to start next 

[Midred]

1 minute ago, Red Army 75 said:

4-2 now, expect the play acting to start next 

Only now? 

[Packman]

Another offside goal for Sheffield united, it evens itself out though.

[W-S-M Seagull]

At least two of their goals were not goals. The refs are shocking in this league. 

[OnCider]

On 02/11/2022 at 00:50, Davefevs said:

Two cars hitting each other at 30 mph each is 60mph impact and will look worse (and is worse) than if one car is stationary.

I mean, I know its irrelevant to the discussion and I'm late to the party but...

Two cars hitting each other head-on at 30mph is still only a 30mph impact as the force of both cars on each other are equally dissipated.  It has the same impact as a car hitting a immovable wall at 30mph.
 

 

[Davefevs]

Just now, OnCider said:

I mean, I know its irrelevant to the discussion and I'm late to the party but...

Two cars hitting each other head-on at 30mph is still only a 30mph impact as the force of both cars on each other are equally dissipated.  It has the same impact as a car hitting a immovable wall at 30mph.
 

 

I blame my Physics Teacher then!

[QuedgeRed]

Norwood is a ****!

[Midred]

3 minutes ago, QuedgeRed said:

Norwood is a ****!

What's he done now?

[maxjak]

On 03/11/2022 at 12:28, Mr Popodopolous said:

It may already have been shared on here, Idk but can make a case for a pen IMO. Not a stonewaller of course.

Could it be more blatant?............I'm having a sweepstake as to which year we get a Pen?........I've got 2026, so i am in with a good chance?

[maxjak]

10 minutes ago, Midred said:

What's he done now?

He is just Norwood?  What else do you need?

[Curr Avon]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

Could it be more blatant?............I'm having a sweepstake as to which year we get a Pen?........I've got 2026, so i am in with a good chance?

Its a penalty for 3 reasons:

1. It's a penalty;

2. It's a penalty;

3  It's a penalty.

Got that referees?

Whatdya mean, you couldn't give a ****!