Finances 21/22

[1960maaan]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surprisingly and happily the accounts state it is not far off at all for 2021-22 when set against 2018-19! A little remarkable actually.

2019 and 2022

 

That's a surprise, and good news. Hopefully build on that now, few extra Gigs etc would be great, but that steady all year round income is vital.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

That's a surprise, and good news. Hopefully build on that now, few extra Gigs etc would be great, but that steady all year round income is vital.

Keep in view….Just because we’ve reached previous years income levels doesn’t mean we have recovered, e.g. inflation, more gigs planned etc.

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Keep in view….Just because we’ve reached previous years income levels doesn’t mean we have recovered, e.g. inflation, more gigs planned etc.

No, totally get that. But TBH I didn't think we would have managed to get a lot of the business back yet. Plus the "landscape' seems to have changed a bit . Just getting close to previous business seems good so far.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Keep in view….Just because we’ve reached previous years income levels doesn’t mean we have recovered, e.g. inflation, more gigs planned etc.

 

Just now, 1960maaan said:

No, totally get that. But TBH I didn't think we would have managed to get a lot of the business back yet. Plus the "landscape' seems to have changed a bit . Just getting close to previous business seems good so far.

Agreed.

I wonder if something else that maybe an add-back is growth of Commercial revenue. We've basically returned to 2019 levels and we grew that year £4m in Commercial Revenue terms from 2017-18 which in turn was £2m higher than 2016-17.

I'm rounding for speed and simplicity.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

No, totally get that. But TBH I didn't think we would have managed to get a lot of the business back yet. Plus the "landscape' seems to have changed a bit . Just getting close to previous business seems good so far.

You’re the music man, how many big gigs did we have summer 19, versus planned post-Covid?  Expected income levels might not be based on 18/19.

[1960maaan]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You’re the music man, how many big gigs did we have summer 19, versus planned post-Covid?  Expected income levels might not be based on 18/19.

Not got or had my finger on the pulse with the music at the Gate. Elton, Spice Girls etc not my bag , the only one I would have liked to go to was the Artic Monkeys ( plus the Manics) and I missed tickets by some way. 

If the page I found is right, there were 3 in 2019. Only the AM announced so far I believe, but I think they were looking to announce another.
No reason why they shouldn't have at least 3 next year, I hope they do , even if I can't get tickets 

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Not got or had my finger on the pulse with the music at the Gate. Elton, Spice Girls etc not my bag , the only one I would have liked to go to was the Artic Monkeys ( plus the Manics) and I missed tickets by some way. 

If the page I found is right, there were 3 in 2019. Only the AM announced so far I believe, but I think they were looking to announce another.
No reason why they shouldn't have at least 3 next year, I hope they do , even if I can't get tickets 

There was Muse as well in 2019.

They're fantastic live- I think so anyway. Music is good but the set, live display top notch- was there for it in summer 2019, very much enjoyed it.

[1960maaan]

17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There was Muse as well in 2019.

They're fantastic live- I think so anyway. Music is good but the set, live display top notch- was there for it in summer 2019, very much enjoyed it.

The Artic's are the first that has appealed to me, not least for the Hives & Mysterines. We were away when tickets went on sale and missed them & I'm not paying £200 for VIP or whatever.  
Trouble is if they get a good band I like, I'll struggle to get tickets.
First World problems 

[Davefevs]

On 17/11/2022 at 22:34, Davefevs said:

The £2.261m is transfer fees / signing on fees, so £1.6m and £0.3m transfer fees for Atkinson and Tanner respectively plus signing on fees for them and anyone else.  So yes could be any or all of Weimann, Baker, Klose, King and James as well as Tanner and Atkinson too.

Here are the notes from last year’s BCFC accounts:

So just shy of £300k might be attributed to signing on fees.

I will we can challenge the myth / view of the type of OOC players we are signing getting huge signing on fees like during boom time!  And might be in lieu of wages to keep within structure?

I need to correct this….I forgot that signing on fees aren’t included in acquisitions but are part of the wages cost in the accounts.  So you can ignore my myth busting! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ashton Gate Limited accounts are out..

Wage bill seems to be about £6.6m- but as a ratio it'll take a bit of piecing together. Revenue bounced back seems to be about £17.45m for last season.

When the club accounts are out that'll help piece together the jigsaw.

I believe that the gap as has been seen consistently is £5-6m between club and Holdings. The latter takes precedence for FFP in its current form- and so it should because the approaching £30m in revenue comes from the consolidator not the club in isolation.

The wage bill down by a third rumour can be partially explained by this therefore.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05450440/filing-history

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ashton Gate Limited accounts are out..

Wage bill seems to be about £6.6m- but as a ratio it'll take a bit of piecing together. Revenue seems to be about £17m.

When the club accounts are out that'll help piece together the jigsaw.

I’ve plugged these and BCFC Womens into my spreadsheet, wait to see City’s when they go on.  I’m sure they won’t all add up because of the way inter company charges are done, but hey-ho.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I’ve plugged these and BCFC Womens into my spreadsheet, wait to see City’s when they go on.  I’m sure they won’t all add up because of the way inter company charges are done, but hey-ho.

I reckon our wage bill club wise- that includes I assume the Women's team and Community Trust will be £24-25m.

As you say it won't add up exactly.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I see we appear on the POF (Price of Football) Podcast today.

Not listened to it yet, probably will do so later or tomorrow.

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I see we appear on the POF (Price of Football) Podcast today.

Not listened to it yet, probably will do so later or tomorrow.

No spoilers but mentioned very briefly at around 29 minutes.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

No spoilers but mentioned very briefly at around 29 minutes.

…and we aren’t on for long!

[22A]

Dundee United have made a profit of £300,000. Not much but better than a loss.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/dundee-united/3917128/dundee-united-accounts-six-figure-profit-mark-ogren/

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bristol City accounts submitted to CH. ie the Club specific ones.

Should be available in the next couple of days.

(Bristol City Football Club Limited).

Same with Bristol City Holdings though we already know the answer with this so it'll just be the same as on the website probably.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look at the club accounts. Possibly a little more detail in some of the notes about FFP and add-backs.

Total remuneration was £23.9m or thereabouts.

Club or Holdings? Two probably compute out in respect of the overall FFP position as while the former has lower revenue, it also has lower costs just about- but also lower depreciation which is an allowable cost which means our FFP allowances would be lower.

The Covid FFP stuff.

Sadly it doesn't specify the add-backs either by category or number..but then I suppose commercial confidentiality.

I believe the EFL for all clubs will be duty-bound to look into things further, in the fullness of time otherwise what kind of governance is that?

FFP aside, 14,011 season ticket holders last season.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I believe the EFL for all clubs will be duty-bound to look into things further, in the fullness of time otherwise what kind of governance is that?

Surely they will receive:

- a copy of the club accounts 

- the P&S template filled in

- accompanying notes to both, with a section related to Covid lost income / exceptional costs

and analyse them and make judgement.  There is nothing to suggest the EFL will just accept the submission, in fact the Rules say…

Why would they need to be “duty bound to look into things further…in the fullness of time?  That suggests their processes are flawed and a prediction of the future.  I don’t get your constant need to predict “foul play” on the part of club (not just City) and / or EFL that will require retrospective action or an enquiry by an Independent.

Why such mistrust?

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Surely they will receive:

- a copy of the club accounts 

- the P&S template filled in

- accompanying notes to both, with a section related to Covid lost income / exceptional costs

and analyse them and make judgement.  There is nothing to suggest the EFL will just accept the submission, in fact the Rules say…

Why would they need to be “duty bound to look into things further…in the fullness of time?  That suggests their processes are flawed and a prediction of the future.  I don’t get your constant need to predict “foul play” on the part of club (not just City) and / or EFL that will require retrospective action or an enquiry by an Independent.

Why such mistrust?

I just see it as good Governance personally.

Maybe not an enquiry but by way of example, some sort of analysis as to how the transfer market has fallen or recovered and that can only be judged over a period of time. Analysis perhaps?

I'd take the losses in Matchday, Commercial etc as red. That's easily quantifiable, more or less.

Everton £170-220m over 2 years...do we really see that as remotely in line? PL yes but if that isn't worthy of an Independent inquiry then what is. Their actual revenue falls were £82m in 2 seasons but then they are arguing that they lost out massively transfer market wise.

That is so far out of kilter to comparable clubs.

Our numbers and categories we can only speculate on.

I think the alternative to the analysis is to give clubs carte blanche to make up their Covid numbers...where do we draw the line?

To me, only verifiable and quantifiable losses and add-backs should fall under covid FFP allowances. Any luck on your email to the EFL btw? I'm guessing they haven't displayed the requisite transparency.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Wider financials, good news is that the wage bill of club down to £23.8m I think it was.

Revenue about £12-13m lower than the Holdings, losses about £1.5-2m lower but Depreciation e.g. a bit lower so it possibly all computes out from an FFP angle.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

In terms of a quick review of the Football Club accounts, as opposed to the Holdings aggregation:

- we got a bit of money for players appearing at the Euros (like we will do for Semenyo in the WC).  Assume this was Kalas and possibly Morrell based on qualification period.

- transfer profit (£1.26m) wasn’t from player sales but conditions from previous sales (e.g. from Brownhill, Webster, Kelly add-ons…likely appearance related, or maybe non-relegation Brighton)

- Wages total down £6.4m

- Depreciation and Amortisation down £3.4m

There’s the high level £10m (£9.8m) saving on the costs Nige has borne that I’ve consistently banged on about.  No mean feat whikst keeping us away from a relegation battle last season.

- Revenue up £4.7m because of fans back in the ground

some break down of the £16.6m revenue:

- match day revenue £1.99m (not back to peak of £2.35m in 18/19)

- Season tickets 14k holders £3.17m (not back to peak £3.62m in 18/19) suggests that akthough numbers of season tickets is up, some have moved to cheaper parts of the ground and more discounted (e.g. junior age group) sold

- other football and commercial / retail income £3.02m (not back to peak of £3.72m in 18/19)

Some breakdown of costs:

- Impairment £1.00m (All or mostly attributed to Palmer being offloaded to Coventry to save his wages, might possibly include Danny Simpson mutual termination

- Wages minus social security and pension costs (£2.89m) £20.81m - so RG / SL not being totally inaccurate with their wage budget of £20m!!!  Let’s not forget that this covers 201 employees, so players will be costing us less than £20m, maybe £16-17m?

- RG earned £304k.  I remember @headhuntersuggesting a salary of £250-300k, so sounds right.  Compare that to Mark Ashton who earned £540k in 19/20!!!

- the £17m loan from SL costs us £401k in interest

Contract Stuff:

- £2.26m incoming made up predominately of Atkinson (£1.6m) and Tanner (£1.3m) plus some incidentals for Weimann, Baker, James, King and Klose deals

- £3.53m outgoing (not fees received, but the value of the player at signing now off the books) relates to O’Dowda (£1.2m) and Nagy (£2.25m) plus nominal for Cundy.  Bakinson and Palmer will be in next years numbers

- the remaining amortisation of £7.9m is made up of the current values of Kalas, Dasilva, Bentley, Williams, Moore, Massengo, plus Atkinson and Tanner

Future Stuff (stuff that happened after 31st May)

- Looks like it could be £180k in compo for Wilson, assumes Bajic was free

- Looks like we made £472k on McAllister (£250k) and Szmodics (assume £222k) in transfers and sell-on percentage

Other Stuff:

if you add the numbers from City, Womens and Ashton Gate accounts together, they don’t add up to Holdings! Why not?  Because they cross-charge each other as part of inter-group transactions.  There is £6.2m of costs incurred by City that they cross-charge to AG Ltd, and £1.4m of revenue they receive that is taken, making up a difference of circa £4.8m…and that ties in nicely with things like turnover differences for example.

So, there you have it.  Any Qs, corrections, thoughts are welcome.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Any luck on your email to the EFL btw? I'm guessing they haven't displayed the requisite transparency.

No, although SLA is 7 working days!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Thanks @Davefevs

Are we including the Pension and NI etc in the wage figure? My method is to do so  to take it all and then work backwards.

Yeah what Gould said was both accurate and a little misleading IMO. Club specifically taking the best reading yes, but overall not so much. Gap between Holdings and Club about £6-6.5m?

Useful for regs moving forward but revenue to football costs...For me with regs now and maybe moving forward, take wages as starting point then work backwards.

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, although SLA is 7 working days!

SLA?

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks @Davefevs

Are we including the Pension and NI etc in the wage figure? My method is to do so  to take it all and then work backwards.

Yeah what Gould said was both accurate and a little misleading IMO. Club specifically taking the best reading yes, but overall not so much. Gap between Holdings and Club about £6-6.5m?

Useful for regs moving forward but revenue to football costs...For me with regs now and maybe moving forward, take wages as starting point then work backwards.

If you read what I put, I broke that down from total and component parts of the total.  The reason they talked of £20m wages was because of potential Salary cap, and even if you include Social Security and Pension for players that would be included in the salary cap it would be less than £20m…so no disingenuousness in their comments imho.

I reckon playing budget for salary cap inclusion is about £18m which would be inside the 70% of turnover of proposed UEFA scheme.

Football:

Holdings:

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

SLA?

Service Level Agreement (sorry three letter acronyms!)

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you read what I put, I broke that down from total and component parts of the total.  The reason they talked of £20m wages was because of potential Salary cap, and even if you include Social Security and Pension for players that would be included in the salary cap it would be less than £20m…so no disingenuousness in their comments imho.

I reckon playing budget for salary cap inclusion is about £18m which would be inside the 70% of turnover of proposed UEFA scheme.

Football:

Holdings:

 

For future looking FFP yes, agreed it is more in line and more transparent than many. For the present there is no change to the system set in stone yet, so the starting point of £30m I'm comfortable with it. £20m a fair guess for football side in isolation, think that amortisation and other aspects were also included in the future looking one- but player transfer profits were also mentioned as a positive.

Question is, what would be constituted as revenue for a football club? Or is it a case of Holdings revenue then football costs...were we to take the club football costs and revenue in isolation we are well outside.

If the rules allow for it all good but it feels a bit like the rules allow for a cake and eat it scenario. Yet I see the merits of it on another level.

Wasn't aware of the SLA thing, that sounds positive.

Re-reading your other post I wouldn't say I am forecasting foul play as such, I am arguing that the fullness of time may lead to differences of opinion or interpretation between a club and the League about how the Covid add-backs fed into FFP.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Question is, what would be constituted as revenue for a football club? Or is it a case of Holdings revenue then football costs...were we to take the club football costs and revenue in isolation we are well outside.

For the UEFA scheme (CLFSR) it’s worth googling as the items for inclusion on the income and cost is not straightforward.  Income can include transfer profit type stuff, whilst costs include amortisation too.

[Davefevs]

Make sure you get the 2022 version not the 2019 version.