FBC Podcast - Swansea [H] the verdict: unbeaten run extended to 3 games!

[Curr Avon]

https://foreverbristolcity.podbean.com/e/swansea-h-the-verdict-unbeaten-run-extended-to-3-games/

The title of this episode is a cup half full view. Quite honestly in the opening half City let the Swans pass around us like Barcelona with Allen their Messi but they never created much of a threat and only took the lead through Atkinson's howler.

City were much improved in the second period due to a change of shape and Semenyo's headed goal brought a deserved equaliser, indeed, City could well have won the game with Benda saving well from Wells.

Two more clear cut penalties weren't awarded by Clive Pawson and Weimann & Conway went off injured but attention now switches to next Saturday's game at home to Birmingham which is a must win.

Ian is host to Mark plus father & son combo Neil & Tom as they talk about the game & lots more

 

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Thought Ian was a decent host to be fair. 

[brady bunch]

another "good un" boys... Thought Neils lad spoke really well... and fair play to Ian having to gaffer it at short notice.

It was an absolute game of two halves, city showing us both side of their play, utter rubbish and then much, much better... I also feel Max has to take dome of the blame for the goal, he put Atkinson in a situation he did not have to and the pass was dodgy with a over hit bouncing ball.

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Thought Ian was a decent host to be fair. 

I wouldn’t know - I don’t listen when he’s on. His perpetual  pessimism wears me down. Best for me to avoid it.

[O'Garlandinho]

38 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I wouldn’t know - I don’t listen when he’s on. His perpetual  pessimism wears me down. Best for me to avoid it.

You need to listen to Ricky Gervais's 'guitar lessons' joke, this is a good example.

[FromeReds]

Thomas - The best January signing so far!!  Enjoyable listen as always

[Hazelboy]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

I wouldn’t know - I don’t listen when he’s on. His perpetual  pessimism wears me down. Best for me to avoid it.

I’m not really sure what you feel this adds to the topic? Why read, let alone comment on Something you don’t listen to?

Proper weird bloke you are.

[The Wild Bunch]

6 minutes ago, Hazelboy said:

I’m not really sure what you feel this adds to the topic? Why read, let alone comment on Something you don’t listen to?

Proper weird bloke you are.

Thought it was a good listen.  Lots of good debate this week.  Really appreciate the work that goes into producing the three City fan podcasts.

[CodeRed]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

I wouldn’t know - I don’t listen when he’s on. His perpetual  pessimism wears me down. Best for me to avoid it.

There's a film on Netflix that I have absolutely no intention of watching.

Just thought you'd all like to know! 

Edited January 9, 2023 by CodeRed

[Shuffle]

Good episode & well done Thomas as great input 

[GeoTheCiderHead]

7 hours ago, Robbored said:

I wouldn’t know - I don’t listen when he’s on. His perpetual  pessimism wears me down. Best for me to avoid it.

No-one needed to know this nor gives a shit. Bloody attention seeker. 
 

FWIW thought it was a cracking episode and Ian was a great stand-in host. Straight to the point with his questions. A cracking debut from Thomas also. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by GeoTheCiderHead

[W-S-M Seagull]

Thought the Coventry one was decent. 

Yet following a 1-1 draw with Swansea in the Fa Cup it seemed to be all doom and gloom and that we are going down without a doubt. 

Very little mention of the fact we are now 3 unbeaten and 3 decent performances to go along with it. 

[Shuffle]

11 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thought the Coventry one was decent. 

Yet following a 1-1 draw with Swansea in the Fa Cup it seemed to be all doom and gloom and that we are going down without a doubt. 

Very little mention of the fact we are now 3 unbeaten and 3 decent performances to go along with it. 

Not sure Swansea counts as a decent performance as only got going in the last 30 mins.  

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thought the Coventry one was decent. 

Yet following a 1-1 draw with Swansea in the Fa Cup it seemed to be all doom and gloom and that we are going down without a doubt. 

Very little mention of the fact we are now 3 unbeaten and 3 decent performances to go along with it. 

That’s what frustrates me.  I totally get why people are a) worried b) don’t think Nige is the right man, etc, etc, but when they present there arguments they don’t even mention the other side of the argument.

If someone said “I’m really worried, the longer term results trends is poor, I think Nige should go, but I do appreciate the last few results have been better, the team have showed a bit of fight”, I can get my head around that so much more.

On Sound of the City last night, there were a few things mentioned that two of the callers recognised as being reasons why we are struggling, but then completely ignored when giving their view.  Or saying they expected 0 points from Burnley / Norwich, but then selectively picking a run of games v points that included those two games.

Of course we need points.  No game is must-win, certainly not with 20 games to go.   Yes, I’d like to beat Birmingham on Saturday, but if we beat Blackburn instead (no guarantees we get anything at all mind you), does it matter that much?  We probably need 50 points to stay up, that’s 21 points from 20 games.  Yep, there are some opponents where it’s more advantageous to win than lose, to push them back, but it’s about accumulating those points however and whenever we can.

[NcnsBcfc]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s what frustrates me.  I totally get why people are a) worried b) don’t think Nige is the right man, etc, etc, but when they present there arguments they don’t even mention the other side of the argument.

If someone said “I’m really worried, the longer term results trends is poor, I think Nige should go, but I do appreciate the last few results have been better, the team have showed a bit of fight”, I can get my head around that so much more.

On Sound of the City last night, there were a few things mentioned that two of the callers recognised as being reasons why we are struggling, but then completely ignored when giving their view.  Or saying they expected 0 points from Burnley / Norwich, but then selectively picking a run of games v points that included those two games.

Of course we need points.  No game is must-win, certainly not with 20 games to go.   Yes, I’d like to beat Birmingham on Saturday, but if we beat Blackburn instead (no guarantees we get anything at all mind you), does it matter that much?  We probably need 50 points to stay up, that’s 21 points from 20 games.  Yep, there are some opponents where it’s more advantageous to win than lose, to push them back, but it’s about accumulating those points however and whenever we can.

@Davefevs I think the biggest problem at the club is the lack of leadership at the top at the moment.

I get that we are in a changeover from RG to PA in the CEO role, but really we should be hearing from the Chairman/Owner about their support for NP, the vision going forward, plans for the January Transfer market; and generally addressing a lot of the concerns that we are drifting as a club; we have absolute silence on all of these fronts.

As such it is left to NP to present to everyone sometimes 3/4 times a week the club as a whole. It's pathetic really, that the position of chairman is allowed to come across as a personal plaything of the Lansdown family. When I think of some of the great chairman of our past, and where we are now, it's not great.

Yes we've only won 7 league games this season, but I've actually enjoyed a number of our games when we haven't won, we've played well on those occasions. However, we are in a results based industry, and I actually swore on the podcast this week; that for us to spend £60m+ on facilities, followed by buying 70+ players in the last 6-7 years at a cost of approx £75m, only to be playing the likes of Rovers, Morecombe, Accrington, Cheltenham etc next season is a demonstration of the mismanagement of the last few years.

For me, the next 2 games are key. I get what you're saying about Birmingham, and 1 win is better than 2 draws of course. But we desperately need a win. No win at home since Oct, 1 win (Rotherham away) in the last 12/13. If we drop down into the relegation spots, we have a very young team full of academy players, and no one of our senior players who has experience of a relegation battle, i do fear the worst.

How much would relegation set us back? Both financially, and more importantly from a reputational of view; as a club who has a billionaire owner, earnt vast fees in selling players, spent masses on a new stadium and training facilities and then been relegated. NP wants his business down early, by we are now a third of the way through the month. A couple of key players are probably injured for a few weeks. Yes, we can fudge around players that are currently persona non grata, but is that going to help our situation? 

I sometimes feel at the moment that this inertia that the club is displaying, hoping that someone will buy one of our players soon is leading us down the road we found ourselves in 2012/13 season. We are starting to sleep walk into disaster.

I know I sound dramatic @Davefevs, and you know I'm normally level headed about these things. But at the moment, it's difficult to believe that things are going to change this month for the better.

Roll on Saturday, a 2-1 win; and hopefully news of the much needed new reinforcements.

[daored]

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Davefevs I think the biggest problem at the club is the lack of leadership at the top at the moment.

I get that we are in a changeover from RG to PA in the CEO role, but really we should be hearing from the Chairman/Owner about their support for NP, the vision going forward, plans for the January Transfer market; and generally addressing a lot of the concerns that we are drifting as a club; we have absolute silence on all of these fronts.

As such it is left to NP to present to everyone sometimes 3/4 times a week the club as a whole. It's pathetic really, that the position of chairman is allowed to come across as a personal plaything of the Lansdown family. When I think of some of the great chairman of our past, and where we are now, it's not great.

Yes we've only won 7 league games this season, but I've actually enjoyed a number of our games when we haven't won, we've played well on those occasions. However, we are in a results based industry, and I actually swore on the podcast this week; that for us to spend £60m+ on facilities, followed by buying 70+ players in the last 6-7 years at a cost of approx £75m, only to be playing the likes of Rovers, Morecombe, Accrington, Cheltenham etc next season is a demonstration of the mismanagement of the last few years.

For me, the next 2 games are key. I get what you're saying about Birmingham, and 1 win is better than 2 draws of course. But we desperately need a win. No win at home since Oct, 1 win (Rotherham away) in the last 12/13. If we drop down into the relegation spots, we have a very young team full of academy players, and no one of our senior players who has experience of a relegation battle, i do fear the worst.

How much would relegation set us back? Both financially, and more importantly from a reputational of view; as a club who has a billionaire owner, earnt vast fees in selling players, spent masses on a new stadium and training facilities and then been relegated. NP wants his business down early, by we are now a third of the way through the month. A couple of key players are probably injured for a few weeks. Yes, we can fudge around players that are currently persona non grata, but is that going to help our situation? 

I sometimes feel at the moment that this inertia that the club is displaying, hoping that someone will buy one of our players soon is leading us down the road we found ourselves in 2012/13 season. We are starting to sleep walk into disaster.

I know I sound dramatic @Davefevs, and you know I'm normally level headed about these things. But at the moment, it's difficult to believe that things are going to change this month for the better.

Roll on Saturday, a 2-1 win; and hopefully news of the much needed new reinforcements.

 

35 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s what frustrates me.  I totally get why people are a) worried b) don’t think Nige is the right man, etc, etc, but when they present there arguments they don’t even mention the other side of the argument.

If someone said “I’m really worried, the longer term results trends is poor, I think Nige should go, but I do appreciate the last few results have been better, the team have showed a bit of fight”, I can get my head around that so much more.

On Sound of the City last night, there were a few things mentioned that two of the callers recognised as being reasons why we are struggling, but then completely ignored when giving their view.  Or saying they expected 0 points from Burnley / Norwich, but then selectively picking a run of games v points that included those two games.

Of course we need points.  No game is must-win, certainly not with 20 games to go.   Yes, I’d like to beat Birmingham on Saturday, but if we beat Blackburn instead (no guarantees we get anything at all mind you), does it matter that much?  We probably need 50 points to stay up, that’s 21 points from 20 games.  Yep, there are some opponents where it’s more advantageous to win than lose, to push them back, but it’s about accumulating those points however and whenever we can.

Both make good points about the importance of the next two games. Although I agree @Davefevsthat still a little early fit ‘must win’ games we need to be looking at four points from the two home games. Looking at our fixtures coming up ; Huddersfield (a) 28 Jan, Wigan (h) 15 Feb ,  Hull (h) 25 Feb, Cardiff (a) 4 March and Blackpool (h) 11 March. Six massive games in the next nine weeks where we really want to be unbeaten against these teams as a minimum ideally win them but pick up points in the other games, that’s why two home games this week are vital to give us some confidence going into Huddersfield and hopefully at least keep the gap at three points

[Shuffle]

54 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Davefevs I think the biggest problem at the club is the lack of leadership at the top at the moment.

I get that we are in a changeover from RG to PA in the CEO role, but really we should be hearing from the Chairman/Owner about their support for NP, the vision going forward, plans for the January Transfer market; and generally addressing a lot of the concerns that we are drifting as a club; we have absolute silence on all of these fronts.

As such it is left to NP to present to everyone sometimes 3/4 times a week the club as a whole. It's pathetic really, that the position of chairman is allowed to come across as a personal plaything of the Lansdown family. When I think of some of the great chairman of our past, and where we are now, it's not great.

Yes we've only won 7 league games this season, but I've actually enjoyed a number of our games when we haven't won, we've played well on those occasions. However, we are in a results based industry, and I actually swore on the podcast this week; that for us to spend £60m+ on facilities, followed by buying 70+ players in the last 6-7 years at a cost of approx £75m, only to be playing the likes of Rovers, Morecombe, Accrington, Cheltenham etc next season is a demonstration of the mismanagement of the last few years.

For me, the next 2 games are key. I get what you're saying about Birmingham, and 1 win is better than 2 draws of course. But we desperately need a win. No win at home since Oct, 1 win (Rotherham away) in the last 12/13. If we drop down into the relegation spots, we have a very young team full of academy players, and no one of our senior players who has experience of a relegation battle, i do fear the worst.

How much would relegation set us back? Both financially, and more importantly from a reputational of view; as a club who has a billionaire owner, earnt vast fees in selling players, spent masses on a new stadium and training facilities and then been relegated. NP wants his business down early, by we are now a third of the way through the month. A couple of key players are probably injured for a few weeks. Yes, we can fudge around players that are currently persona non grata, but is that going to help our situation? 

I sometimes feel at the moment that this inertia that the club is displaying, hoping that someone will buy one of our players soon is leading us down the road we found ourselves in 2012/13 season. We are starting to sleep walk into disaster.

I know I sound dramatic @Davefevs, and you know I'm normally level headed about these things. But at the moment, it's difficult to believe that things are going to change this month for the better.

Roll on Saturday, a 2-1 win; and hopefully news of the much needed new reinforcements.

Good post.  The thing for me is that we have played well and not turned those performances into wins which is frustrating for everyone.   You are right in that at some stage we have to get to a point whereby promise and decent performance are outweighed by lack of points.  No other club would be any different.  

Would any other coach get better performances from these players is the million dollar question ?  I do have massive sympathy for NP in that the squad is threadbare and we are a couple of injuries/potential suspensions away from disaster & yet because of the mismanagement we cannot do much about it.

I partially agree with the void in communication from the top but even then what can they realistically say that we don’t already know. I thought NP had said we weren’t necessarily reliant on a sale and wanted to do business early but clearly that position has changed back to 1 in/ 1 out.  

I was really positive after Coventry where I thought we were really good & optimistic about the rest of the season but that positivity had evaporated by ht on Sunday.  I feel we are close to being a reasonable team and playing people in their correct positions is a start but like the club am undecided about whether to stick or twist.  

See you Saturday & as you say hopefully with reinforcements 
 

 

 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Davefevs I think the biggest problem at the club is the lack of leadership at the top at the moment.

I get that we are in a changeover from RG to PA in the CEO role, but really we should be hearing from the Chairman/Owner about their support for NP, the vision going forward, plans for the January Transfer market; and generally addressing a lot of the concerns that we are drifting as a club; we have absolute silence on all of these fronts.

As such it is left to NP to present to everyone sometimes 3/4 times a week the club as a whole. It's pathetic really, that the position of chairman is allowed to come across as a personal plaything of the Lansdown family. When I think of some of the great chairman of our past, and where we are now, it's not great.

Yes we've only won 7 league games this season, but I've actually enjoyed a number of our games when we haven't won, we've played well on those occasions. However, we are in a results based industry, and I actually swore on the podcast this week; that for us to spend £60m+ on facilities, followed by buying 70+ players in the last 6-7 years at a cost of approx £75m, only to be playing the likes of Rovers, Morecombe, Accrington, Cheltenham etc next season is a demonstration of the mismanagement of the last few years.

For me, the next 2 games are key. I get what you're saying about Birmingham, and 1 win is better than 2 draws of course. But we desperately need a win. No win at home since Oct, 1 win (Rotherham away) in the last 12/13. If we drop down into the relegation spots, we have a very young team full of academy players, and no one of our senior players who has experience of a relegation battle, i do fear the worst.

How much would relegation set us back? Both financially, and more importantly from a reputational of view; as a club who has a billionaire owner, earnt vast fees in selling players, spent masses on a new stadium and training facilities and then been relegated. NP wants his business down early, by we are now a third of the way through the month. A couple of key players are probably injured for a few weeks. Yes, we can fudge around players that are currently persona non grata, but is that going to help our situation? 

I sometimes feel at the moment that this inertia that the club is displaying, hoping that someone will buy one of our players soon is leading us down the road we found ourselves in 2012/13 season. We are starting to sleep walk into disaster.

I know I sound dramatic @Davefevs, and you know I'm normally level headed about these things. But at the moment, it's difficult to believe that things are going to change this month for the better.

Roll on Saturday, a 2-1 win; and hopefully news of the much needed new reinforcements.

Excellent post Neil comments below….agree with so much of it.

Firstly, just want to be clear, I’m very worried about our league position, and take nothing for granted re staying in this division.  But I do think we have (as it stands today) enough to stay up.  I’d be very disappointed if we went down against my view of the quality of teams around / below us.  As I said to @Marina's Rolls Roycein a post over Xmas, if all things being equal to today, Nige took us down, I’d see him as failing and that my belief in him misguided irrespective of what he may have “sorted” off the pitch.  My view is that although we are under considerable constraints, the squad (again, all things being equal) should be able to be managed by Nige to safety.

I hope that makes sense.

I could go on about various scenarios that could change my expectations, but that is futile at this stage.  As it stands, all things being equal (I keep saying that, apologies) we have a group of players, no FFP points deduction, no necessity to sell to avoid points deduction, etc.  Therefore sitting 19th at the mo on 29 points from 26 games, there is no reason for me to think that we should slip to a point where after 46 games we are in the bottom three and relegated

Ok, pre-amble over.

Leadership - yep, where is it?  The only people showing any at this point is Nige and Tins.  I don’t think a CEO changeover is any reason for neither RG or PA to be communicating with us.  This isn’t just about being in a transfer window where Tins (as TD) is forefront, and Nige being recipient / involved in the process…and both are communicating clearly on this aspect.  It’s about direction of the club, further communicating the transfer window objectives etc.  The Chairman continues to do eff-all that is visible to the fans.  So I couldn’t agree with you more.

Results Business - yes we are, or maybe we should call it a “points business”.  Wins are three times as useful as draws, and we do need some, but I’m also very much in the “every point is a good point earned” and two away draws are very important to keeping us ticking over, as is a new-found ability to concede first and get a “result”.  Until Coventry and Swansea, we’d only gained one point all season having gone behind.  I know a Swansea was cup, so no points, but I will be watching this going forward, as it does give some hope we are battling away…and in our position, battling rather than going under is very important.  I don’t worry about things like “our younger players haven’t been in a relegation scrap before”.  Let’s judge them on their performances, I trust that their ability will drive the outcomes.  The correlation to what we’ve spent does indeed show how badly mismanaged we’ve been, and to me explains why we are where we currently are.  Evidence perhaps of the psyche of the modern day professional footballer that when presented with a contract  nearing a decision point, that either requires being told they are no longer required or that a paycut is required, that getting optimal performance levels out of them (generalisation admittedly), it seems that we have to accept sub-optimal instead.  There will be those who strive to “play through it”, but going back to the ill-judged “we’ll get our value on the pitch” comment we saw not only Diedhiou (who was offered a deal) but all the others performance levels decline.  We don’t have a big enough squad / enough quality to overcome accommodating that…so that makes the task harder, when trying to compete.

Next couple of games - I’ll take each one in turn and reflect accordingly.  Sorry, that’s the boring answer, as is “no game is easy”.  To hear Nige Whittle saying he expects 4 specific wins out of next 8, and 4 specific losses, therefore we must get 12 points from those four specific games is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard in a while.  Might we not win all 4 but get points elsewhere?  The graphic below shows the Championship rarely works like that. You know I don’t like predicting points gained from next x games, because each game is individual, but that had me swearing WTAF at my phone last night.  Here what he was saying would / must happen.

Relegation - I think it would set us back massively.  Although how the new FFP rules get implemented might help us as we’d be one of the bigger clubs.  But Lg1 is a tough division.  I can’t say much more than that, apart from I’d rather the rebuild carried on in our current division.

Early business - Nige can want what he likes.  It’s said with complete clarity (and more in aspiration than anything) that we need to sell to recruit.  Getting someone out of the door is very hard.  There is a possibility that we might reverse that, get someone in and then accept more of a deal (e.g. pay a bit more of a wage contribution) later on to move someone on.  We will have to wait and see.

I honestly don’t think we are sleep walking, I don’t like the term per se, because I think everyone that matters on the football side is very aware of the situation, but…

…we can’t force players out, and we can’t bust FFP and get a points deduction.  There is a view that a change of manager resolves it all.  It may.  It may not.  My own view is that I think it’s a bigger risk than letting Nige carry on.  Happy for others to disagree.

Over-Dramatic - not at all, just expressing your worry, and articulating it well.  If I sat here unworried, I’d be wearing blinkers and a sheep-skin nose and too!  

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Shuffle said:

I was really positive after Coventry where I thought we were really good & optimistic about the rest of the season but that positivity had evaporated by ht on Sunday.  I feel we are close to being a reasonable team and playing people in their correct positions is a start but like the club am undecided about whether to stick or twist.  

See you Saturday & as you say hopefully with reinforcements 
 

Did any Hope re-appear in the second half though?

[Shuffle]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Did any Hope re-appear in the second half though?

For last quarter of the game it did but we are a tough watch at times

[NcnsBcfc]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Did any Hope re-appear in the second half though?

I enjoyed the way in which it appeared we went back to basics. Packed the midfield 451 without the ball, going to 433 on transition. In that way, we closed down the Swansea passing channels, forcing them to go backwards. Their defenders (Cabango going off for Darling made a huge difference) panicked massively when we were able to implement a more effective press. Hence the mis clearance for our equaliser, followed a minute or two later for the Wells chance that was saved well.

I have to say that both Zak, and Rob looked better in a 4, than a 3. Tanner also looked more comfortable at RB, rather than RWB. Sykes added a bit of drive when he came on there.

It was that sort of front foot energy that got us the run of home wins earlier on the season. We've gone away from that to the patient build up, hitting the channels with long passes nonsense that has seen us not win at home since Oct. 

My only issue is why, knowing the way that Swansea play through the midfield with high possession stats, it took until the second half to make the change.

The same applies to recent home games. We set up the same, playing in essence the same players (due to players unavailable for whatever reason), and expecting some sort of different result. You can tell confidence is low

We have to be courageous now at home, and look to get back to the type of football we played in August. I haven't seen a fired up team at home for months now, the way we were second half, and I'm sorry I do look to the coaching team to give the team that drive and motivation.

I've not given up on NP, I've seen football played by us this season that belies our current position. But results aren't coming in the way we need them. This team fundamentally should be doing better that what it is.

Fingers crossed for the weekend we see that second half team again, rather than the apathetic one of recent home games.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

My only issue is why, knowing the way that Swansea play through the midfield with high possession stats, it took until the second half to make the change.

Because the plan was to impose our game (which we are familiar with) on our opponent and make them change.  But we didn’t execute it, and felt the best way was to change.

[frenchred]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Because the plan was to impose our game (which we are familiar with) on our opponent and make them change.  But we didn’t execute it, and felt the best way was to change.

What exactly is "our game"?

[NcnsBcfc]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Because the plan was to impose our game (which we are familiar with) on our opponent and make them change.  But we didn’t execute it, and felt the best way was to change.

That's the key issue though in a way isn't it? We haven't been able to impose our game, and get a win at home since Oct. During that time, have we actually changed formations, tried new tactics (other than when forced to by injuries)?

I still have some belief in the coaching staff (not quite ready to give up just yet). But if the 352/3412 whatever isn't getting us the results; then we need to try to evolve somewhat, and do what we saw second half against Swansea. That was the first time since Aug/Sept in my mind that we saw a change in the way we are playing at home.

If we start Saturday with the same tired wing back formation, looking to "impose" our game on Birmingham; then it's going to be a long 90 mins again.

[frenchred]

7 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

That's the key issue though in a way isn't it? We haven't been able to impose our game, and get a win at home since Oct. During that time, have we actually changed formations, tried new tactics (other than when forced to by injuries)?

I still have some belief in the coaching staff (not quite ready to give up just yet). But if the 352/3412 whatever isn't getting us the results; then we need to try to evolve somewhat, and do what we saw second half against Swansea. That was the first time since Aug/Sept in my mind that we saw a change in the way we are playing at home.

If we start Saturday with the same tired wing back formation, looking to "impose" our game on Birmingham; then it's going to be a long 90 mins again.

Can I ask again please, what exactly is "our game"?

[NcnsBcfc]

6 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Can I ask again please, what exactly is "our game"?

Wingbacks, in a 352 or 3412 system.

We seem to have lost the link up between the forward line though. Rather choosing to hit the channels, rather than playing the ball through midfield to the wingbacks.

I've lost count of how many long balls are being hit to Pring wide on the left from the GK, or at free kicks. I have no idea what is supposed to happen after our 6ft 1 inch wing back wins the ball (sporadically). We used to attack with pace and link up play through the middle, before spreading it wide for Dasilva to overhit the cross.

Now I'm not so sure?

[frenchred]

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Wingbacks, in a 352 or 3412 system.

We seem to have lost the link up between the forward line though. Rather choosing to hit the channels, rather than playing the ball through midfield to the wingbacks.

I've lost count of how many long balls are being hit to Pring wide on the left from the GK, or at free kicks. I have no idea what is supposed to happen after our 6ft 1 inch wing back wins the ball (sporadically). We used to attack with pace and link up play through the middle, before spreading it wide for Dasilva to overhit the cross.

Now I'm not so sure?

:laugh:, and therein lies the problem!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

What exactly is "our game"?

Firstly it’s more than a formation, which is what some people like to think.

56 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

That's the key issue though in a way isn't it? We haven't been able to impose our game, and get a win at home since Oct. During that time, have we actually changed formations, tried new tactics (other than when forced to by injuries)?

I still have some belief in the coaching staff (not quite ready to give up just yet). But if the 352/3412 whatever isn't getting us the results; then we need to try to evolve somewhat, and do what we saw second half against Swansea. That was the first time since Aug/Sept in my mind that we saw a change in the way we are playing at home.

If we start Saturday with the same tired wing back formation, looking to "impose" our game on Birmingham; then it's going to be a long 90 mins again.

In fairness I think we have been able to play our game in lots of matches (impose not always, I accept, but that’s a strong word).  I’ve noticed us play lots of different ways this season, not just formation driving that.  I honestly don’t think you’re watching closely enough if you thought Sunday was the first time we’ve changed at home.  That’s not me trying to be rude Neil, just that I’ve seen evolution in the way we’ve played, some through personnel, some through system, some because of opponents, making us do different things, etc.. some of that evolution has been effective, some of it counter productive.

35 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Wingbacks, in a 352 or 3412 system.

We seem to have lost the link up between the forward line though. Rather choosing to hit the channels, rather than playing the ball through midfield to the wingbacks.

I've lost count of how many long balls are being hit to Pring wide on the left from the GK, or at free kicks. I have no idea what is supposed to happen after our 6ft 1 inch wing back wins the ball (sporadically). We used to attack with pace and link up play through the middle, before spreading it wide for Dasilva to overhit the cross.

Now I'm not so sure?

The example you give is a set play, that happens 6-12 times a game.  I don’t like it either, but that’s just a small part of the plan.

What do you think might be a reason why we are playing less through the midfield and then out to the WBs of late?  It’s an easy “criticism” to make, but why do you think that is?

For me, Initially the absence of Naismith, then the absence of James, meaning we then changed to a flatter three in midfield, meaning we missed that “break the lines” ability, firstly from Naismith as the passer, but also the likes of Weimann, as the receiver in the pockets (repositioning to either RWB or RCM), whilst James positioned himself to provide a bit of protection.  That’s an example about how we’ve tried to adapt, it’s not the only reason I dare say either.  Incidentally our goals conceded have gone down as a result, but we’ve lost a bit of that attacking threat as a result.  There is a lot of cause and effect out there.  Naismith is now LCB3, that’s a change, pros and cons to it too.

I’m just waiting for the change to a back four as the golden ticket and then the realisation from fans that players will still make individual mistakes regardless of formation, and that there will be games when we can’t get the ball up the pitch effectively.  We might create an element of surprise for a game or two, but teams will get wise to that too.

34 minutes ago, frenchred said:

:laugh:, and therein lies the problem!

Going back to your initial question. I think we have a mixed system, we try to pass through the thirds when we can, but we are also accepting that we can’t play like that all the times.  Sometimes we will play through central positions, sometimes we play through wide areas.  Much will depend on gone state, opponents, our own personnel.  We will also look to play fast in transition and attempt killer pass early in the phase.  We aren’t a team that passes for passing’s sake, nor are we a team that just want to camp behind the ball and play counter-attacking football only.

We don’t have enough quality or the right players to rigidly play like Swansea or Burnley, nor like Millwall either.  But we saw against both Swansea and Millwall how we can reduce their effectiveness whilst increasing ours.  Swansea got forced into pumping long balls second half, didn’t they?

What do you think it is out of interest?

[frenchred]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Firstly it’s more than a formation, which is what some people like to think.

In fairness I think we have been able to play our game in lots of matches (impose not always, I accept, but that’s a strong word).  I’ve noticed us play lots of different ways this season, not just formation driving that.  I honestly don’t think you’re watching closely enough if you thought Sunday was the first time we’ve changed at home.  That’s not me trying to be rude Neil, just that I’ve seen evolution in the way we’ve played, some through personnel, some through system, some because of opponents, making us do different things, etc.. some of that evolution has been effective, some of it counter productive.

The example you give is a set play, that happens 6-12 times a game.  I don’t like it either, but that’s just a small part of the plan.

What do you think might be a reason why we are playing less through the midfield and then out to the WBs of late?  It’s an easy “criticism” to make, but why do you think that is?

For me, Initially the absence of Naismith, then the absence of James, meaning we then changed to a flatter three in midfield, meaning we missed that “break the lines” ability, firstly from Naismith as the passer, but also the likes of Weimann, as the receiver in the pockets (repositioning to either RWB or RCM), whilst James positioned himself to provide a bit of protection.  That’s an example about how we’ve tried to adapt, it’s not the only reason I dare say either.  Incidentally our goals conceded have gone down as a result, but we’ve lost a bit of that attacking threat as a result.  There is a lot of cause and effect out there.  Naismith is now LCB3, that’s a change, pros and cons to it too.

I’m just waiting for the change to a back four as the golden ticket and then the realisation from fans that players will still make individual mistakes regardless of formation, and that there will be games when we can’t get the ball up the pitch effectively.  We might create an element of surprise for a game or two, but teams will get wise to that too.

Going back to your initial question. I think we have a mixed system, we try to pass through the thirds when we can, but we are also accepting that we can’t play like that all the times.  Sometimes we will play through central positions, sometimes we play through wide areas.  Much will depend on gone state, opponents, our own personnel.  We will also look to play fast in transition and attempt killer pass early in the phase.  We aren’t a team that passes for passing’s sake, nor are we a team that just want to camp behind the ball and play counter-attacking football only.

We don’t have enough quality or the right players to rigidly play like Swansea or Burnley, nor like Millwall either.  But we saw against both Swansea and Millwall how we can reduce their effectiveness whilst increasing ours.  Swansea got forced into pumping long balls second half, didn’t they?

What do you think it is out of interest?

I don't believe we have any "game" I cannot fathom what they do all week in training as it's not evident on a Saturday.

If you feel we have a "game" and/or identity then fair play to you, I see very little of either.

Play through the lines? I've seen more evidence of hoofball than that.

We have very little if any width so how you can say we play down the sides I don't know.

We don't press as a unit and the Def, mid and att are so detached from each other they would need mobiles to communicate!

I know I'm a miserable old bastard but am totally fed up watching the same piss poor performances every week and the same old excuses trotted out by the manager

[NcnsBcfc]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Firstly it’s more than a formation, which is what some people like to think.

In fairness I think we have been able to play our game in lots of matches (impose not always, I accept, but that’s a strong word).  I’ve noticed us play lots of different ways this season, not just formation driving that.  I honestly don’t think you’re watching closely enough if you thought Sunday was the first time we’ve changed at home.  That’s not me trying to be rude Neil, just that I’ve seen evolution in the way we’ve played, some through personnel, some through system, some because of opponents, making us do different things, etc.. some of that evolution has been effective, some of it counter productive.

The example you give is a set play, that happens 6-12 times a game.  I don’t like it either, but that’s just a small part of the plan.

What do you think might be a reason why we are playing less through the midfield and then out to the WBs of late?  It’s an easy “criticism” to make, but why do you think that is?

For me, Initially the absence of Naismith, then the absence of James, meaning we then changed to a flatter three in midfield, meaning we missed that “break the lines” ability, firstly from Naismith as the passer, but also the likes of Weimann, as the receiver in the pockets (repositioning to either RWB or RCM), whilst James positioned himself to provide a bit of protection.  That’s an example about how we’ve tried to adapt, it’s not the only reason I dare say either.  Incidentally our goals conceded have gone down as a result, but we’ve lost a bit of that attacking threat as a result.  There is a lot of cause and effect out there.  Naismith is now LCB3, that’s a change, pros and cons to it too.

I’m just waiting for the change to a back four as the golden ticket and then the realisation from fans that players will still make individual mistakes regardless of formation, and that there will be games when we can’t get the ball up the pitch effectively.  We might create an element of surprise for a game or two, but teams will get wise to that too.

Going back to your initial question. I think we have a mixed system, we try to pass through the thirds when we can, but we are also accepting that we can’t play like that all the times.  Sometimes we will play through central positions, sometimes we play through wide areas.  Much will depend on gone state, opponents, our own personnel.  We will also look to play fast in transition and attempt killer pass early in the phase.  We aren’t a team that passes for passing’s sake, nor are we a team that just want to camp behind the ball and play counter-attacking football only.

We don’t have enough quality or the right players to rigidly play like Swansea or Burnley, nor like Millwall either.  But we saw against both Swansea and Millwall how we can reduce their effectiveness whilst increasing ours.  Swansea got forced into pumping long balls second half, didn’t they?

What do you think it is out of interest?

Certainly, the tightening up at the back has been an improvement (now 6 teams have conceded more goals than us). But as you point out it's been at the expense of scoring goals. That has ultimately led to too many draws that could have been 1 or 2 more wins. Are we being too cautious at the moment?

When we break at the moment, we definitely don't break in the same numbers that we used to. Having no real pace at WB (although Pring has made a difference on the left for me) is also a concern (hopefully Wilson can add a differential here). Up front, neither Wells or Conway have real genuine pace or strength. I get that Wells is a box player (shown by the recent goals from Pring assists), and that Conway will further develop in time after his stunning start to the season. But with Semenyo for whatever reason not carrying the same physical presence, we are lacking physicality up front, and hitting long balls into the channels or expecting Wells/Conway to win those battles with 6ft+CBs behind them isn't really their game.

In some ways, if we are going to persist with WB's and Wilson is someway off, we have to consider whether we move Scott there again? It's not ideal moving him out of the centre of course, but his movement, pace and goals from that position last year gave us another option. He was certainly our most effective WB, but that of course is a measure of him as a player.

I think when we play 3 at the back, most away teams now seem to push 3 players up against the CBs. Stopping us bringing the ball out, in the way we looked to do with Naismith at the start of the season. They also know that whoever plays in the centre of the three has a mistake in them.  Only playing with 2 in midfield, is often causing us to be overloaded there, as teams look to break on us. I like James but his mobility is not the best. Often on Sunday he was 20 yards behind the play.

I think having Naismith in the centre nullified Allen, as he was put on him man for man. I'm not adverse to seeing some akin to the second half against Swansea. A 451 out of possession, breaking on 433. I'm assuming Weimann, and Conway are out, and Naismith's hobbling around doesn't lead to an absence. I would go:-

                      MOL

Tanner,   Vyner,    Atkinson,     Pring

Sykes, Scott, James, Naismith, Semenyo

                        Wells

I think Naismith played more on the right cm, with Scott on the Lm. But Naismith is predominately left footed, and I think that gives more balance. Given the way that Pring has improved, I'm not averse to pushing him more forward on the left as well, with Naismith filling in at left back.

We certainly need pace on either side, and I quite the feistiness of Sykes, and Semenyo to bring a mistake out of defenders on a press.

@Davefevs your views?