The Changing Of The Front Three…

[Silvio Dante]

I said in the match day thread, when the suggestion was Mehmeti/Cornick/Weimann for Bell/Wells/Scott that it wouldn’t happen and would be a bit disrespectful to Wigan. Didn’t see it coming, and was very surprised when it did.

And to me, it was probably why we didn’t win tonight.

The biggest miss was Wells - although Cornick ran hard, the holding and the out ball Nakhi gives us wasn’t there. That meant, even in the first half, we were pretty deep. However playing Cornick in isolation would be fine. The issue for me was more a cohesion one. We had three players up top, two of whom have barely played with the rest of the team (and HC hasn’t had much football fullstop), and one of whom was coming back from injury. If it looked disjointed, it’s because it was.

No doubt Wigan played well. But we didn’t really get in a flow, and the level of change made - all in one area - was a big contributor.

Plus side - Mehmeti looks a player. My one initial small reservation is that he tended to run into traffic a lot - part of that would be cohesion again, part Wigan starting to double up, but definitely deserves to start Saturday - with Wells and Sykes.

[Dredd]

Nige seemed to indicate in the post match that it was more to do with given players (NW named checked) a rest so they are fresh for Sunderland. I do get that but at the same time you'd think the easier 3 points was available last night at home, let's make sure we get them. At half time we were 5 points outside the playoffs and 11th. 
I think Cornick looks off the pace and Mehmeti needs time and is closer but it's a catch 22 as the only way they get up to speed is with game time. Unfortunately Weimann also had a shocker in the second half, wasting 4 crosses in great positions. I think at Sunderland it'll be MS NW AM

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Games have been thick and fast. Made sense to me. 

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Games have been thick and fast. Made sense to me. 

Me to. Plus…..why sign two players, both very keen to play and not use them? Mehmeti has quick feet and looked a threat at times. 

[mozo]

27 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I said in the match day thread, when the suggestion was Mehmeti/Cornick/Weimann for Bell/Wells/Scott that it wouldn’t happen and would be a bit disrespectful to Wigan. Didn’t see it coming, and was very surprised when it did.

And to me, it was probably why we didn’t win tonight.

The biggest miss was Wells - although Cornick ran hard, the holding and the out ball Nakhi gives us wasn’t there. That meant, even in the first half, we were pretty deep. However playing Cornick in isolation would be fine. The issue for me was more a cohesion one. We had three players up top, two of whom have barely played with the rest of the team (and HC hasn’t had much football fullstop), and one of whom was coming back from injury. If it looked disjointed, it’s because it was.

No doubt Wigan played well. But we didn’t really get in a flow, and the level of change made - all in one area - was a big contributor.

Plus side - Mehmeti looks a player. My one initial small reservation is that he tended to run into traffic a lot - part of that would be cohesion again, part Wigan starting to double up, but definitely deserves to start Saturday - with Wells and Sykes.

I'd go Mehmeti, Wells and Sykes too. 

We still don't appear to have a forward that can lead the line with physical presence, and as much as Wells is doing the link up play very well atm he's not going to challenge the centre backs physically. Cornick probably needs to do some squats and deadlifts before he'll be able to do that and may need to learn the artwork of being the middle of a three. 

I'm not critical of the line up yesterday though. I just think Wigan suffocated us on all areas of the pitch and we didn't have the ingenuity to cope with it. The only overloads we managed were for the Weimann moments.

Mehmeti didn't have much chance to shine but his work rate was excellent. Cornick did a lot of running too but didn't look so comfortable. 

[RobArnold10]

Was the front free a downgrade on the starters vs Norwich? Yeah absolutely however it wasn’t like we were punchless up top. We still scored and first few minutes of the second half looked like getting a second…The front three weren’t to blame for a poorer midfield display and completely going to sleep for the goal. Bear in mind that the remainder of the team was the same team that held Norwich to no goals. The only thing I would say is Mehmeti still needs time to understand his defensive duties, couple of times he hung Pring out to dry with poor tracking or positioning (but going forward he was fantastic).

[1960maaan]

I was surprised, but sort of understood getting fresh legs in. Hindsight is easy, but it would have mad sense to just change 1 or 2, let them get used to how we play. But with the tougher game (. in theory at least ) Saturday, I get resting Wells & Sykes, Maybe I would have mixed it over the two games more. TBF I wasn't upset when I saw the team, Wigan were decent, that cost us points more than the new front 3. 
I think it will be a mix on Saturday. Possibly Mehmetti/Wells/Sykes , at least that would be my chooice.

[Gimme Shelton]

I just had a feeling that Nige hasn't exactly given up on the playoffs,more it would be nice if it happens and it's more important to give new players bedding-in opportunities?

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I said in the match day thread, when the suggestion was Mehmeti/Cornick/Weimann for Bell/Wells/Scott that it wouldn’t happen and would be a bit disrespectful to Wigan. Didn’t see it coming, and was very surprised when it did.

And to me, it was probably why we didn’t win tonight.

The biggest miss was Wells - although Cornick ran hard, the holding and the out ball Nakhi gives us wasn’t there. That meant, even in the first half, we were pretty deep. However playing Cornick in isolation would be fine. The issue for me was more a cohesion one. We had three players up top, two of whom have barely played with the rest of the team (and HC hasn’t had much football fullstop), and one of whom was coming back from injury. If it looked disjointed, it’s because it was.

No doubt Wigan played well. But we didn’t really get in a flow, and the level of change made - all in one area - was a big contributor.

Plus side - Mehmeti looks a player. My one initial small reservation is that he tended to run into traffic a lot - part of that would be cohesion again, part Wigan starting to double up, but definitely deserves to start Saturday - with Wells and Sykes.

When Wells came off on the hour on Saturday, after another game where his work ethic was outstanding, I said to the guy next to me that I reckoned it was to save him for last night.  However Nige’s press conferences this week kinda alluded to the fact that he might need a rest.

I thought Cornick did fine, he’s not hugely dissimilar to Wells in that he’s a willing runner (both when city are in / out of possession), tries to get in between ball and Centre-Back and puts defenders under pressure on the high ball, sometimes winning flicks.  There was some very good movement between him and Weimann in the first half (one short, one long and vice-versa), just that sometimes the ball didn’t come.

If Weimann’s final ball was on-point, we probably create 3 or 4 good chances.  In fairness, his delivery reminded me of Sykes pre-purple patch!

I don’t think it was in anyway disrespectful to Wigan.  On paper and a month ago, easy to argue Weimann / Cornick / Mehmeti is stronger than Sykes / Wells / Bell.  Plus we don’t know the sports science view on Wells for example.

I’m sure there is an element of the changes disrupting us, but I think Wigan should get credit for the way they played.  Felt a bit like Millwall (h) where everytime you foul, you end up with a set-piece entering your box and creating pressure.  We dealt with it well, but that pressure lead to several corners, and more pressure.  It gave teams like Wigan hope.  It also stops any flow to our game.

So I see last night a bit more to do with the opposition “types than us per se.  In our unbeaten run, you could argue it’s been more difficult to overcome the more direct teams, PNE, despite winning was a real slog second half.  Things to overcome, but why Nige said pre-game we are miles from where he wants us to be.

I also think a lot of fans see a win over Norwich or West Brom as becoming the new norm, and get disappointed when we don’t repeat.  Generally the levels are going up, but there will be peaks and troughs.  In a way it is good that as fans we are disappointed.

 

[And Its Smith]

If you take Weimann out of the team last night and play either Sykes or Bell instead we probably win the match. Three changes was just one too many and wasn’t necessary.  Still, we didn’t lose and no reason we can’t keep the unbeaten run going on Saturday.  Play offs is a bit of a dream so just need to keep building for next season. 

[spudski]

Its a catch 22. We needed greater depth with new signings...but like every new signing, it takes time for them to adapt to their new surroundings and get accustomed to our way of playing. For it to be ingrained and become second nature. Understanding your team mates, and knowing what they are going to do. 

I thought when I saw Weimann coming back from injury, and the two new signings starting, that it could be a problem...and it turned out that way. They looked rushed, disjointed and lacked composure in certain areas.

Our upturn in recent weeks, imo, has been down to a settled side that have trained, played and ingrained our way of playing over a whole season. It's why the likes of Sykes, Conway and Bell fitted in seamlessly. 

Whilst we may now have depth...imo, it could turn out to be a problem.

The GK, back four, DMF 2, James, Kal or Williams, and CM Scott pretty much guaranteed most games, they pick themselves. So 8 positions taken.

That leads to the 3 attacking positions left.

We have Wells, Sykes, Conway soon, Bell, Weimann, Cornick, Memetti. 

7 players to choose from, to fit 3 positions. 

I can see this being a problem. Some may call it a good problem. However the understanding Conway, Wells, Sykes and Bell have, has been there for all to see. 

When blooding new players or those straight back from injury together, then imo, it's a step too far. 

Whilst Wigan had a well executed plan, imo, it was an opportunity lost to win that game, if we'd had more continuity up front. 

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I would have preferred to start with Sykes, Wells and Bell, and subbed on Weimann, Memetti and Cornick and break them in slowly. 

 

 

[OldlandReddies]

Sykes or Wells instead of Weimann last night and we win the game imo. Andi failed to complete an easy ball across the box on at least 3 occasions last night. Probably just down to match practice but Sykes or Wells would have played the right ball. All lovely hindsight though. 10 unbeaten is fantastic. Win at the weekend then it'll all be forgotten. I've moved on already. 

[Cityboy1954]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I said in the match day thread, when the suggestion was Mehmeti/Cornick/Weimann for Bell/Wells/Scott that it wouldn’t happen and would be a bit disrespectful to Wigan. Didn’t see it coming, and was very surprised when it did.

And to me, it was probably why we didn’t win tonight.

The biggest miss was Wells - although Cornick ran hard, the holding and the out ball Nakhi gives us wasn’t there. That meant, even in the first half, we were pretty deep. However playing Cornick in isolation would be fine. The issue for me was more a cohesion one. We had three players up top, two of whom have barely played with the rest of the team (and HC hasn’t had much football fullstop), and one of whom was coming back from injury. If it looked disjointed, it’s because it was.

No doubt Wigan played well. But we didn’t really get in a flow, and the level of change made - all in one area - was a big contributor.

Plus side - Mehmeti looks a player. My one initial small reservation is that he tended to run into traffic a lot - part of that would be cohesion again, part Wigan starting to double up, but definitely deserves to start Saturday - with Wells and Sykes.

Agree find a place for him hes gonna be scotts replacement.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

When Wells came off on the hour on Saturday, after another game where his work ethic was outstanding, I said to the guy next to me that I reckoned it was to save him for last night.  However Nige’s press conferences this week kinda alluded to the fact that he might need a rest.

I thought Cornick did fine, he’s not hugely dissimilar to Wells in that he’s a willing runner (both when city are in / out of possession), tries to get in between ball and Centre-Back and puts defenders under pressure on the high ball, sometimes winning flicks.  There was some very good movement between him and Weimann in the first half (one short, one long and vice-versa), just that sometimes the ball didn’t come.

If Weimann’s final ball was on-point, we probably create 3 or 4 good chances.  In fairness, his delivery reminded me of Sykes pre-purple patch!

I don’t think it was in anyway disrespectful to Wigan.  On paper and a month ago, easy to argue Weimann / Cornick / Mehmeti is stronger than Sykes / Wells / Bell.  Plus we don’t know the sports science view on Wells for example.

I’m sure there is an element of the changes disrupting us, but I think Wigan should get credit for the way they played.  Felt a bit like Millwall (h) where everytime you foul, you end up with a set-piece entering your box and creating pressure.  We dealt with it well, but that pressure lead to several corners, and more pressure.  It gave teams like Wigan hope.  It also stops any flow to our game.

So I see last night a bit more to do with the opposition “types than us per se.  In our unbeaten run, you could argue it’s been more difficult to overcome the more direct teams, PNE, despite winning was a real slog second half.  Things to overcome, but why Nige said pre-game we are miles from where he wants us to be.

I also think a lot of fans see a win over Norwich or West Brom as becoming the new norm, and get disappointed when we don’t repeat.  Generally the levels are going up, but there will be peaks and troughs.  In a way it is good that as fans we are disappointed.

 

Morning @Davefevs

I thought generally as a team we looked a bit lethargic last night. A supreme effort against Norwich on Sat seemed to have drained us both physically and mentally. It would be interesting to see how the collective stats dropped off across the board.

The effort a number of players (the fullbacks in particular) have put in during this 10 match unbeaten run is impressive, but we weren't able to match those levels of intensity last night. We tried in the first 10 mins, but weren't able to carry on over a longer sustained period. Tanner and Pring were both guilty at times of being more passive than they have been recently, they both look tired for me.

Fair play to Wigan, they changed it at HT, and i thought Nyambe at RWB (rather than LB in the first half) was particualry impressive. So was Max Power, and Callum Lang(when he came on). I think Power is OOC in the summer (one to keep an eye on). They are well drilled now, and stayed focused, and didn't get too ambitious,  knowing that we are a team that likes to hit on the break.

Of all the teams in the bottom 6, they look the best bet to get themselves out of trouble for me.

It's a measure of how far we've come as a squad that people are disappointed with a point against a team on the up.

Tough game on sat (I will be there on CATS at 6.30). Will be difficult for a number of the squad to recover effectively with one day less rest. Sunderland will be less direct, with a highly mobile Front 3.

Game on

Edited February 16, 2023 by NcnsBcfc

[Silvio Dante]

2 hours ago, RobArnold10 said:

Was the front free a downgrade on the starters vs Norwich? Yeah absolutely however it wasn’t like we were punchless up top. We still scored and first few minutes of the second half looked like getting a second…The front three weren’t to blame for a poorer midfield display and completely going to sleep for the goal. Bear in mind that the remainder of the team was the same team that held Norwich to no goals. The only thing I would say is Mehmeti still needs time to understand his defensive duties, couple of times he hung Pring out to dry with poor tracking or positioning (but going forward he was fantastic).

Agree about going to sleep on the goal - that was poor.

Also agree about Mehmeti/Pring (and I don’t want to slate Anis because I think he did well overall) and I think it plays to my point over cohesion. I think the midfield were poorer precisely because there was less familiarity/cohesion with the front three - analogy here is that when I run I sometimes get a pain in my lower leg but it’s my top half and an adjusted gait that causes it. The same thing here - because the front three weren’t really on the same page it makes the midfield worse but the midfield weren’t bad per se.

To be clear, it’ll get better the more Cornick and Mehmeti play and I’m happy that you have to rest players. It just seemed a couple of changes too many for me and mass change as opposed to gradual integration 

[RedM]

To save quoting all your post @spudskiI agree with what you are saying.

We need Wells to be playing to get the best out of a  combination of Conway/Bell/Sykes. He seems to be the player that makes it happen at the moment. 

Agree with Pearson's logic of resting him but he was the first player he turned to when it wasn't going all our way. He has also looked sharper and sharper the more he has played in recent weeks too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, RedM said:

To save quoting all your post @spudskiI agree with what you are saying.

We need Wells to be playing to get the best out of a  combination of Conway/Bell/Sykes. He seems to be the player that makes it happen at the moment. 

Agree with Pearson's logic of resting him but he was the first player he turned to when it wasn't going all our way. He has also looked sharper and sharper the more he has played in recent weeks too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks RedM. It's definitely a conundrum that may or may not work.

I just hope it doesn't have a negative affect on our recent progress. 

 

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Dredd said:

Nige seemed to indicate in the post match that it was more to do with given players (NW named checked) a rest so they are fresh for Sunderland. I do get that but at the same time you'd think the easier 3 points was available last night at home, let's make sure we get them. At half time we were 5 points outside the playoffs and 11th. 
I think Cornick looks off the pace and Mehmeti needs time and is closer but it's a catch 22 as the only way they get up to speed is with game time. Unfortunately Weimann also had a shocker in the second half, wasting 4 crosses in great positions. I think at Sunderland it'll be MS NW AM

Who'd be a manager eh?

A win last night, with new players getting a decent run out and then get something at Sunderland with the likes of Bell and Wells rested, and it looks like an excellent decision.

As it is, if we lose on Saturday it then looks like a bad judgement call that could cost any chance of challenging for a play off place.

Didn't see the game last night, but it does sound like 3 changes was too many and upset the balance that has been working so well recently. That's no slight on Cornick and Mehmeti, but coming into a team that's on a good run can be a bit of a  poisoned chalice at the best of times.

 

[RedLionLad]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Me to. Plus…..why sign two players, both very keen to play and not use them? Mehmeti has quick feet and looked a threat at times. 

No need to highlight in bold every word

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Morning @Davefevs

I thought generally as a team we looked a bit lethargic last night. A supreme effort against Norwich on Sat seemed to have drained us both physically and mentally. It would be interesting to see how the collective stats dropped off across the board.

The effort a number of players (the fullbacks in particular) have put in during this 10 match unbeaten run is impressive, but we weren't able to match those levels of intensity last night. We tried in the first 10 mins, but weren't able to carry on over a longer sustained period. Tanner and Pring were both guilty at times of being more passive than they have been recently, they both look tired for me.

Fair play to Wigan, they changed it at HT, and i thought Nyambe at RWB (rather than LB in the first half) was particualry impressive. So was Max Power, and Callum Lang(when he came on). I think Power is OOC in the summer (one to keep an eye on). They are well drilled now, and stayed focused, and didn't get too ambitious,  knowing that we are a team that likes to hit on the break.

Of all the teams in the bottom 6, they look the best bet to get themselves out of trouble for me.

It's a measure of how far we've come as a squad that people are disappointed with a point against a team on the up.

Tough game on sat (I will be there on CATS at 6.30). Will be difficult for a number of the squad to recover effectively with one day less rest. Sunderland will be less direct, with a highly mobile back 3.

Game on

Definitely a valid point…lots of games, small squad, it takes its toll.  I remember LJ winning a couple, unchanged team, then we had Millwall at home on the Tuesday night (might’ve been the game after the excellent 2-1 win at Fulham).  He was damned if he did, damned if he didn’t make changes.  He went unchanged and we looked devoid of energy against a Millwall team who who pressed and pounced onto every pass made into midfield.

Wigan we’re very effective in a 442 (4411 second half), Power and Tiehi held firm the middle of the pitch.  Joe Williams pass map below.  Matty James’s is similar, but he only got on the ball 28 times (22 success passes).

Alex Scott had to do a lot of work by drifting into wide areas.

We had to go around them…and that sometimes leads to a feeling of “we aren’t moving it around quickly enough”.  At times that was true.

I think normally you’d expect Wigan - a goal behind, to become more expansive, take risks…and that would open it up for us.  But they didn’t, they stayed in shape, relied on creating pressure through set-plays in the hope they’d sneak one - bastards!!! The disappointment was the way they scored their equaliser.

For me, I’m quite happy that we’ve become a bit more gritty, harder to score against, but we will see games like last night.

We aren’t gonna go down, but I still think of last night as a point gained towards the objective.  If we win a couple and push ourselves up the table again, then great, but I’m pretty happy at the mo’…we’ll have performances that range from “just a smidge below par” (last night) to “great” (West Brom).

I don’t think there was an awful lot wrong last night.  I don’t think I’d sit here this morning and be able to say “had we picked x, y and z last night we’d have definitely won”.  We were two frames of the word work from being able to say that with the way we played it out.

 

[iamalagerdrinker]

I'd like to see a front three of Wells, Mehmeti & Sykes on Saturday 

[Davefevs]

Just now, iamalagerdrinker said:

I'd like to see a front three of Wells, Mehmeti & Sykes on Saturday 

That is quite likely I reckon.

[Bris Red]

Still early days for me on Cornick but I’ll be honest I haven’t been overly impressed with what I’ve seen from him so far.

[BCFCGav]

My first thought seeing the line-up yesterday was it was brave to change a team that won so well on Saturday, although I was excited to see more of the new two forwards. Like many - last nights draw isn't sitting great with me today in that it feels like a missed opportunity just as we were all starting to cautiously wonder about the play-offs.

Saying all that, Nige summed it up very well in his post-match. We're leaving a game where we've gone 10 unbeaten (anyone know when that last happened? Not recently) feeling disappointed - that shows how quickly we've upped our levels since December. We're on a fantastic run and long may it continue. 

[Super]

10 minutes ago, iamalagerdrinker said:

I'd like to see a front three of Wells, Mehmeti & Sykes on Saturday 

I think it will be the 3 that started against Norwich.

[WarksRobin]

Gambled and didn’t pay off with the selection. Let’s face it though, we would have won if not for a loss of concentration across the whole team for a period of the match. The equaliser was not down to the front three. 

[redkev]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree about going to sleep on the goal - that was poor.

Also agree about Mehmeti/Pring (and I don’t want to slate Anis because I think he did well overall) and I think it plays to my point over cohesion. I think the midfield were poorer precisely because there was less familiarity/cohesion with the front three - analogy here is that when I run I sometimes get a pain in my lower leg but it’s my top half and an adjusted gait that causes it. The same thing here - because the front three weren’t really on the same page it makes the midfield worse but the midfield weren’t bad per se.

To be clear, it’ll get better the more Cornick and Mehmeti play and I’m happy that you have to rest players. It just seemed a couple of changes too many for me and mass change as opposed to gradual integration 

I personally thought how ever good Anis is going forward and some great wing play he takes up space that pring goes charging into . Something for the coaches to look at I say .

[redkev]

32 minutes ago, BCFCGav said:

My first thought seeing the line-up yesterday was it was brave to change a team that won so well on Saturday, although I was excited to see more of the new two forwards. Like many - last nights draw isn't sitting great with me today in that it feels like a missed opportunity just as we were all starting to cautiously wonder about the play-offs.

Saying all that, Nige summed it up very well in his post-match. We're leaving a game where we've gone 10 unbeaten (anyone know when that last happened? Not recently) feeling disappointed - that shows how quickly we've upped our levels since December. We're on a fantastic run and long may it continue. 

Thought after the initial opening minutes the whole team was rather lethargic, not moaning too much we have come on leaps & bounds during the season we didn’t really play that Badly, hats off to Wigan though looked half decent .

true what someone else said funny how these poor teams come down to the gate suddenly don’t look that poor . Seen far worse than Wigan this year

[Dredd]

6 minutes ago, redkev said:

I personally thought how ever good Anis is going forward and some great wing play he takes up space that pring goes charging into . Something for the coaches to look at I say .

I think this is a really good point. When Bell and Semenyo played that position I think naturally they ended up pulling into the middle a lot more whereas Mehmeti was very disciplined in holding that wide forward position, much as Sykes does on the right. It's gives us genuine width but we do lose something in the middle. 

[Numero Uno]

If Sykes gets into the positions Weimann did we win the game. Where we missed a trick is we needed to get Mehmeti 1 v 1 with the full back. First time we did it we scored but we didn’t manage thereafter. Our movement was a bit basic and didn’t create those situations. Had we done that we would have created far more.