O'Neills - New Kit Supplier (Confirmed)

[Hartleysbeard]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yes these are a reference to the FAs new rules on heritage protection. These were brought in earlier this season. The White Paper suggests that the Government thinks this is sufficient protection. I cannot find the full new rules published anywhere though, so have no idea what they actually say beyond the press releases.

Have you got a copy?

I can’t find anything more than this. 

[ChippenhamRed]

3 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

It’s not a key component though is it. I have zero opinion on any other teams kit. We play in red. Job done. 

You think a kit isn’t a key component of a team’s identity?!

Football kits have long been a part of fan culture. Just because you don’t have any opinions at all doesn’t make it “baffling” that others do…quite the opposite.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Hartleysbeard said:

I can’t find anything more than this. 

Neither can I. It's weird, everything I read talks as though these rules are in place...and then I look in the FA handbook and can't see them. If they are meant to protect heritage assets that fans have an interest in then they should be publicly available. I'll keep looking and asking.

[Slacker]

I can't even comment on the rest of the shirt.That badge on anything would make it absolutely hideous!

[View from the Dolman]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yes these are a reference to the FAs new rules on heritage protection. These were brought in earlier this season. The White Paper suggests that the Government thinks this is sufficient protection. I cannot find the full new rules published anywhere though, so have no idea what they actually say beyond the press releases.

Have you got a copy?

Per the FA Handbook (https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/fa-handbook)...

REGISTRATION AND CHANGE OF CLUB CREST

M4 Each Club shall register its Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.
Guidance: This will ensure The Association can maintain an accurate record of Club Crests as a reference point to operate these Rules. Clubs should register any new Club Crest (including where there are minor changes which do not engage these Rules) to ensure The Association has an accurate record at all times.

M5 A Club Crest shall not be distasteful, threatening, abusive, indecent, insulting, discriminatory, ethically or morally offensive, or include any political or religious message, or include any form of advertising.

M6 A Club seeking to change its Club Crest shall not choose a design which would cause confusion with the existing Club Crest of another Club.

M7 The Club Crest shall comply with the Kit and Advertising Regulations.

M8 No Club shall make any material changes to its Club Crest without first undertaking a thorough and extensive consultation with its supporters.
Guidance: Clubs seeking to ensure they have undertaken a thorough and extensive consultation with supporters should undertake an independently run supporter poll to give weight to its proposal. The nature of such a poll will depend upon the circumstances of the Club in question but should include taking a poll of (where applicable); members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with
the FCA (in many cases, a group of club supporters more commonly referred to as a supporters’ trust will be registered as a Community Benefit Society), season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. Club Crests form an important part of the identity of a Club and changes can be an emotive issue for some supporters and lead to legitimate concerns being raised. 

These Rules apply to any material changes to any aspect of a Club Crest (e.g. changing a colour from blue to red, adding or deleting text, or adding new design features and/or deleting established design features). These Rules are not intended to apply to the types of small changes to a Club Crest which occur more regularly, such as making a colour slightly lighter or darker, or slightly increasing or decreasing the size of a font. Whilst there may often be a strong case for the modernisation of a Club Crest, given the prominence of a Club’s Crest on kits, promotional material, broadcast and other visual media, it is of vital importance that the views of supporters are given significant weight when deciding to make material changes.

It is noted that some Clubs mark anniversaries by introducing a club crest which draws on previous heritage but differs from that in current use by the Club. Whilst these Rules will still apply in such circumstances, Clubs will be given a greater margin of discretion with regard to a temporary change to a club crest of this nature provided that the change is for a maximum of one playing season.

M9 A Club must be in a position to evidence that the majority of its supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest prior to making any such change.
Guidance: In assessing whether or not the majority of a Club’s supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest, The Association will give significant weight to the views of members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with the FCA, season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. For the avoidance of doubt, the views of a Club’s wider supporter base and/or membership shall not be disregarded for the purposes of any assessment by The Association.

M10 If a Club makes any material changes to its Club Crest then it shall register the new Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.

M11 The Association shall have the power to instruct a Club to use a previous version of the Club Crest where in the reasonable opinion of The Association a Club has breached any of Rules M4 to M10.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Dreadful kit.

But more annoying is the fact the club have decided to change the front of shirt club badge with zero fan consultation. Thought we'd got past the club taking the piss like this. I can't imagine this would have happened under Richard Gould.

Ironically, the new football governance bill would likely prevent the club doing something like this, unless it had carried out a proper consultation with fans. 

The flying Robin image, or whatever it is officially called, has been in use for a while in t-shirt sales in the club shop and on the kits sported by the coaching staff. Such a kit was visibly worn by Curtis Fleming at the weekend. 

As for the quality of the kits I will hold judgement until I've seen and handled them up close. 

[Hartleysbeard]

2 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Per the FA Handbook (https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/fa-handbook)...

REGISTRATION AND CHANGE OF CLUB CREST

M4 Each Club shall register its Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.
Guidance: This will ensure The Association can maintain an accurate record of Club Crests as a reference point to operate these Rules. Clubs should register any new Club Crest (including where there are minor changes which do not engage these Rules) to ensure The Association has an accurate record at all times.

M5 A Club Crest shall not be distasteful, threatening, abusive, indecent, insulting, discriminatory, ethically or morally offensive, or include any political or religious message, or include any form of advertising.

M6 A Club seeking to change its Club Crest shall not choose a design which would cause confusion with the existing Club Crest of another Club.

M7 The Club Crest shall comply with the Kit and Advertising Regulations.

M8 No Club shall make any material changes to its Club Crest without first undertaking a thorough and extensive consultation with its supporters.
Guidance: Clubs seeking to ensure they have undertaken a thorough and extensive consultation with supporters should undertake an independently run supporter poll to give weight to its proposal. The nature of such a poll will depend upon the circumstances of the Club in question but should include taking a poll of (where applicable); members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with
the FCA (in many cases, a group of club supporters more commonly referred to as a supporters’ trust will be registered as a Community Benefit Society), season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. Club Crests form an important part of the identity of a Club and changes can be an emotive issue for some supporters and lead to legitimate concerns being raised. 

These Rules apply to any material changes to any aspect of a Club Crest (e.g. changing a colour from blue to red, adding or deleting text, or adding new design features and/or deleting established design features). These Rules are not intended to apply to the types of small changes to a Club Crest which occur more regularly, such as making a colour slightly lighter or darker, or slightly increasing or decreasing the size of a font. Whilst there may often be a strong case for the modernisation of a Club Crest, given the prominence of a Club’s Crest on kits, promotional material, broadcast and other visual media, it is of vital importance that the views of supporters are given significant weight when deciding to make material changes.

It is noted that some Clubs mark anniversaries by introducing a club crest which draws on previous heritage but differs from that in current use by the Club. Whilst these Rules will still apply in such circumstances, Clubs will be given a greater margin of discretion with regard to a temporary change to a club crest of this nature provided that the change is for a maximum of one playing season.

M9 A Club must be in a position to evidence that the majority of its supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest prior to making any such change.
Guidance: In assessing whether or not the majority of a Club’s supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest, The Association will give significant weight to the views of members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with the FCA, season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. For the avoidance of doubt, the views of a Club’s wider supporter base and/or membership shall not be disregarded for the purposes of any assessment by The Association.

M10 If a Club makes any material changes to its Club Crest then it shall register the new Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.

M11 The Association shall have the power to instruct a Club to use a previous version of the Club Crest where in the reasonable opinion of The Association a Club has breached any of Rules M4 to M10.

Great stuff. 

[Hartleysbeard]

A quick scan of the rules also states the official club emblem must appear only once on the front of the shirt. Have they massively ballsed up here? Or am I misunderstanding the rules?

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Per the FA Handbook (https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/fa-handbook)...

REGISTRATION AND CHANGE OF CLUB CREST

M4 Each Club shall register its Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.
Guidance: This will ensure The Association can maintain an accurate record of Club Crests as a reference point to operate these Rules. Clubs should register any new Club Crest (including where there are minor changes which do not engage these Rules) to ensure The Association has an accurate record at all times.

M5 A Club Crest shall not be distasteful, threatening, abusive, indecent, insulting, discriminatory, ethically or morally offensive, or include any political or religious message, or include any form of advertising.

M6 A Club seeking to change its Club Crest shall not choose a design which would cause confusion with the existing Club Crest of another Club.

M7 The Club Crest shall comply with the Kit and Advertising Regulations.

M8 No Club shall make any material changes to its Club Crest without first undertaking a thorough and extensive consultation with its supporters.
Guidance: Clubs seeking to ensure they have undertaken a thorough and extensive consultation with supporters should undertake an independently run supporter poll to give weight to its proposal. The nature of such a poll will depend upon the circumstances of the Club in question but should include taking a poll of (where applicable); members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with
the FCA (in many cases, a group of club supporters more commonly referred to as a supporters’ trust will be registered as a Community Benefit Society), season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. Club Crests form an important part of the identity of a Club and changes can be an emotive issue for some supporters and lead to legitimate concerns being raised. 

These Rules apply to any material changes to any aspect of a Club Crest (e.g. changing a colour from blue to red, adding or deleting text, or adding new design features and/or deleting established design features). These Rules are not intended to apply to the types of small changes to a Club Crest which occur more regularly, such as making a colour slightly lighter or darker, or slightly increasing or decreasing the size of a font. Whilst there may often be a strong case for the modernisation of a Club Crest, given the prominence of a Club’s Crest on kits, promotional material, broadcast and other visual media, it is of vital importance that the views of supporters are given significant weight when deciding to make material changes.

It is noted that some Clubs mark anniversaries by introducing a club crest which draws on previous heritage but differs from that in current use by the Club. Whilst these Rules will still apply in such circumstances, Clubs will be given a greater margin of discretion with regard to a temporary change to a club crest of this nature provided that the change is for a maximum of one playing season.

M9 A Club must be in a position to evidence that the majority of its supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest prior to making any such change.
Guidance: In assessing whether or not the majority of a Club’s supporters are in favour of a material change to its Club Crest, The Association will give significant weight to the views of members of any Community Benefit Society formed for the benefit of the club’s supporters and registered with the FCA, season ticket holders, and any supporters who have attended a specific number of home matches in the previous season. For the avoidance of doubt, the views of a Club’s wider supporter base and/or membership shall not be disregarded for the purposes of any assessment by The Association.

M10 If a Club makes any material changes to its Club Crest then it shall register the new Club Crest with The Association in the form prescribed by The Association.

M11 The Association shall have the power to instruct a Club to use a previous version of the Club Crest where in the reasonable opinion of The Association a Club has breached any of Rules M4 to M10.

Thanks so much. I feel pretty stupid. I thought I'd combed through the FA Rules but must have missed this.

So I suspect that the Club don't think this comes under these rules as a) they'd argue they've just moved the Crest to the back of the neck, and b) it's possible it's just for one season and just on the third kit, so it's a "temporary" change, c) I assume they've not actually changed the Crest that is registered with the FA, and so they would argue that actually there is no change. "Club Crest" is defined as "the official club emblem used on the playing strip which is the recognised symbol of the club". Nothing about location there, and the Club Crest is on the nape of the neck.

As I said to @Kid in the Riot all rules I've seen - including these - clearly have an implied assumption that Clubs will use the same Crest on the "traditional" front of shirt position, and that Crest will be the registered one (bar small colour changes). Most rules account for one off changes for anniversaries or other celebrations, but there's never really a mention of a switch on a whole kit.

Seems the Club may have found a minor loophole. However, if Jon Lansdown is already bored of the Crest he redesigned 5 minutes ago and wants to replace it again, then he will need to have a consultation with fans.

Edited March 13, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[BasSavage88]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thanks so much. I feel pretty stupid. I thought I'd combed through the FA Rules but must have missed this.

So I suspect that the Club don't think this comes under these rules as a) they'd argue they've just moved the Crest to the back of the neck, and b) it's possible it's just for one season and just on the third kit, so it's a "temporary" change, c) I assume they've not actually changed the Crest that is registered with the FA, and so they would argue that actually there is no change.

As I said to @Kid in the Riot all rules I've seen - including these - clearly have an implied assumption that Clubs will use the same Crest on the "traditional" front of shirt position, and that Crest will be the registered one (bar small colour changes). Most rules account for one off changes for anniversaries or other celebrations, but there's never really a mention of a switch on a whole kit.

Seems the Club may have found a minor loophole. However, if Jon Lansdown is already bored of the Crest he redesigned 5 minutes ago and wants to replace it again, then he will need to have a consultation with fans.

He also needs to use one he can copyright and isn't the first image of a robin on Google the lazy ***** 

[Agard Days Night]

Class. Well done all. 

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, Hartleysbeard said:

A quick scan of the rules also states the official club emblem must appear only once on the front of the shirt. Have they massively ballsed up here? Or am I misunderstanding the rules?

That's in the Kit and Advertising bit. I think you could read it as saying that the club emblem may appear only once on the front. Ie. Not twice. I don't think I can see anything that actually says it has to appear on the front.

But those same regs don't seem to allow for an alternative logo, they talk about sponsors and competition logos - but that's not what this is. It's getting late tbh and I'm reading on a phone, but it might be that there's a bit of a muck up here.

[The Fat Controller]

The club have gone out of their way to solve a problem that many fans have mentioned. 

Not enough shirt stock in the shop at Christmas? Problem solved!

[Offside]

I’ve never been keen on yellow as our away kit, but we’ve had it before so fair enough.

What’s really weird is the decision to use that new badge when the existing one is still in its infancy. And it looks awful. 

[Kid in the Riot]

It's completely unidentifiable as a Bristol City shirt. If you walked down the street wearing it nobody would have a ******* clue who you supported. 

[Street red]

1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

It will always baffle me why any adult would care about how a football kit looks. 

It's not the kit it's the badge.

[Tomo]

Reverse the badges and the shirt is passable albeit uninspiring. What a school boy error putting a 'flying pigeon' on the front

[David Brent]

1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

It will always baffle me why any adult would care about how a football kit looks. 

That’s your problem

[RedLionLad]

1 hour ago, Bobbie said:

It will always baffle me why any adult would care about how a football kit looks. 

Because…

[cidercity1987]

18 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It's completely unidentifiable as a Bristol City shirt. If you walked down the street wearing it nobody would have a ******* clue who you supported. 

Pretty par for the course for a club who play in the most popular colour, have the same nonsense nickname as 2 of their local rivals and aren't even the first BCFC on Google 

[stephenkibby.]

Don't normally comment on the kit as i'm old and old school.

But that shirt looks like it's been worn by a amature club that's skink and it's coming out for a third season.

Has to be brighter Yellow. As for the badge, WTF.

[The Journalist]

27 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It's completely unidentifiable as a Bristol City shirt. If you walked down the street wearing it nobody would have a ******* clue who you supported. 

This has genuinely irked me more than it should’ve - I just don’t get the thinking. How has nobody stepped in and stopped it happening? It’s so stupid on a commercial level, SO stupid. Second-rate kit supplier, second-rate branding.

Find me another top-level football club who have had four completely different badges on their shirts in four years!

Edited March 13, 2023 by The Journalist

[Magic Man]

Here is a good example of how a club can properly engage with its fans when it comes to branding and heritage… (the vid at the end of the article is worth a watch)

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/16-20-january-2023/typographic-arsenal-stadium-artworks/?cmpid=dwnews_30307355&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=dw_daily&adg=8264804

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

57 minutes ago, Hartleysbeard said:

A quick scan of the rules also states the official club emblem must appear only once on the front of the shirt. Have they massively ballsed up here? Or am I misunderstanding the rules?

Doubt it. Everton have had a tower on their third shirt all season so it must be fine.

[ChippenhamRed]

7 minutes ago, Magic Man said:

Here is a good example of how a club can properly engage with its fans when it comes to branding and heritage… (the vid at the end of the article is worth a watch)

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/16-20-january-2023/typographic-arsenal-stadium-artworks/?cmpid=dwnews_30307355&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=dw_daily&adg=8264804

 

I know I’ve said it already but I really don’t understand why the club doesn’t engage with fans on kit design. Especially when they’re making a completely unnecessary change to the badge that they must know will be controversial.

Who wins from NOT doing it? Nobody. The fans end up with a crap kit no one wants and the club makes less money.

I also find it odd that they’re using a different icon on one shirt, without any market research, having fairly recently introduced the new club badge. From a marketing perspective, all they’re doing is diluting the brand.

[W-S-M Seagull]

14 minutes ago, Magic Man said:

Here is a good example of how a club can properly engage with its fans when it comes to branding and heritage… (the vid at the end of the article is worth a watch)

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/16-20-january-2023/typographic-arsenal-stadium-artworks/?cmpid=dwnews_30307355&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=dw_daily&adg=8264804

 

Yet from next season Arsenal have decreased the amount of home games that a season ticket covers. 

[alexukhc]

I reckon it’s really smart tbh

[LondonBristolian]

Personally I can’t see why everyone is getting so worked up about the new Norwich City kit. 

[Aipearcey]

Find it odd how O’neills seem to have distanced themselves from the release too. Can’t see anything about it on their social media, maybe they’re as embarrassed about it as the fans are but don’t want to upset or not do as they’re told by a big new client?

[Supersonic Robin]

Can't believe I'm having to write this sentence, but here we go......the issue with the kit is that it doesn't have the badge of the football club on the front.

Such a ridiculous and frustrating thing to get wrong. What on earth is the logic behind it? It's such an unnecessary error to make. Seems like a classic case of Jon Lansdown wanting to overdo it with the kit designs.

I'm actually fairly open minded about being creative with the kits, but can we just get a few of the basics right and then get creative with the 'other stuff'?
- Put the badge of the football club on the chest of the kit
- Make the home kit 'plain' red and white (no need for white sleeves, hooped socks, etc)

It's ironic that the club claims to want kit suppliers who allow us to "be unique and show our identity", and then use this to produce a kit that doesn't even have the badge on it - one of the most fundamental elements of our identity.