Ivan Toney

[The Humble Realist]

2 hours ago, Leveller said:

Eight months is most of a season. Why does it matter which season? It could put them in danger next season for all we know.

Because he pleaded guilty in February is my point. I.e. everyone agreed he was guilty then.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, The Humble Realist said:

Its ridiculous result, he pleaded guilty in feb but has still been playing.

Imagine if brentford were down  the bottom and his goals in that time had kept them up.

When I think about this then it makes me think has the integrity of the league been compromised by the FAs handling of this? 

Since pleading guilty he's continued to play and has potentially impacted relegation and European places etc. Spurs now have an easier game against Brentford because Toney is banned.

Man City have won the league but let's imagine it went down to the last game, Tony scored in the game against Arsenal which ended 1-1. City have Brentford last game of season and now have an easier game against them without Toney.

Also 2 months of the ban is in the off season when really it should have been from start of the season. So any team he plays against in his 1st 2 months back can feel hard done by.

[Kodjias Wrist]

One things for sure. Fantasy football teams ****** for the last games of the season.

[phantom]

22 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

One things for sure. Fantasy football teams ****** for the last games of the season.

Good point lol

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

That's not that bad a punishment 8 months, some injuries last longer, he's a lucky boy.

[downendcity]

Toney got odds of 9-1 from Ladbrokes that he'd get an 8 month ban.

[soultrader]

14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

1 day ban for every bet!!

How do they calculate accumulators?

[Sturny]

9 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

That's not that bad a punishment 8 months, some injuries last longer, he's a lucky boy.

I wonder if it's 8 months paid as well.

I imagine he'll still be training. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Sturny

[marcofisher]

I understand there are rightful concerns about sporting integrity. But surely we should be supporting players with gambling addictions rather than throwing the book at them?

 

The guy does not need the money; players who are gambling will be looking for a high, no different from drugs or alcohol.

Edited May 18, 2023 by marcofisher

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

I wonder if it's 8 months paid as well.

I imagine he'll still be training. 

That’s up to Brentford to decide.  He cannot join Brentford’s training until Sept tho’.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

I wonder if it's 8 months paid as well.

I imagine he'll still be training. 

He may train alone but he is not allowed to return to training with his club until 17 September.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65626690

[chinapig]

15 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

I understand there are rightful concerns about sporting integrity. But surely we should be supporting players with gambling addictions rather than throwing the book at them?

 

The guy does not need the money; players who are gambling will be looking for a high, no different from drugs or alcohol.

You can do both. I would hope his club and the PFA will help him if he has an addiction.

[Baba Yaga]

Just now, marcofisher said:

I understand there are rightful concerns about sporting integrity. But surely we should be supporting players with gambling addictions rather than throwing the book at them?

 

The guy does not need the money; players who are gambling will be looking for a high, no different from drugs or alcohol.

Is this confirmed that he is a gambling addict? The info I read was 232 bets over a 4 year period and without knowing the amounts/things he bet on I would say it's hard to judge if the 8 months is a harsh or lenient punishment, or if he really has a addiction (if he does then I guess he would have had help already and will get continuing support through the ban when he can't train).

Shame for Toney because I think a queue of big clubs could have offered him a much bigger contract/chance to play at a higher level this summer. I remember Suarez getting banned for biting and then tearing up the league the following season so if Toney comes back firing then this won't hold him back for too long.

[Red-Robbo]

36 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Is this confirmed that he is a gambling addict? The info I read was 232 bets over a 4 year period and without knowing the amounts/things he bet on I would say it's hard to judge if the 8 months is a harsh or lenient punishment, or if he really has a addiction (if he does then I guess he would have had help already and will get continuing support through the ban when he can't train).

Shame for Toney because I think a queue of big clubs could have offered him a much bigger contract/chance to play at a higher level this summer. I remember Suarez getting banned for biting and then tearing up the league the following season so if Toney comes back firing then this won't hold him back for too long.

 

I guess every footballer knows the rules; placing just one bet is illegal. Whether he's strictly an addict or not, being unable (or unwilling) to control the need to bet on such matches suggests a lack of impulse-control.  It isn't hard to be found out.

Bet on the nags instead!  People in racing I know bet on anything other than horses. Their bans are even more severe than football's, because of the history of the sport. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Red-Robbo

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

I understand there are rightful concerns about sporting integrity. But surely we should be supporting players with gambling addictions rather than throwing the book at them?

 

The guy does not need the money; players who are gambling will be looking for a high, no different from drugs or alcohol.

 

52 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s up to Brentford to decide.  He cannot join Brentford’s training until Sept tho’.

 

2 hours ago, Sturny said:

I wonder if it's 8 months paid as well.

I imagine he'll still be training. 

If I were Brentford I'd pay him as long as for 4 months he was in gambling rehabilitation.  He's got talent it would be a shame if he were broke come the end of his playing days.

[ExiledAjax]

19 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I guess every footballer knows the rules; placing just one bet is illegal if it is on a competition in which his club participates.

That's a category 2 offence. It's a Cat 1 offence for any player to place a bet on any football match anywhere in the world. That's the fundamental prohibition.

As I said earlier in the thread, there are six categories and they increase in severity from the two mentioned above to the most serious - a bet placed on a particular occurrence involving the player who placed the bet.

The vast majority of betting cases investigated by the FA involve category 2, 3, and 4 offences. Cat 3 is a bet placed on your own team to win, Cat 4 is betting that your own team will lose.

Cat 4 is subdivided into 4(a) bet to lose and you play (or are an unused sub) in the match, and 4(b) bet to lose but you don't take part. Obviously 4(a) is very serious and tends to attract a ban of over a year, 4(b) is less serious.

Looking at historical sanctions and Toney's 8 month ban, I suspect that his case involved a few Cat 4(b) offences, the average sanction for which is between 20-40 weeks (5-9 months(ish)). The record sanction for a Cat 4(b) offence is 57 weeks and that record is held by the honourable Mr. J. Barton who bet on his own team to lose no less than 15 times.

A number of aggravating and mitigating factors will also have been considered in arriving at the 8 month ban. They include the obvious such as size and number of bets (of each category), did Toney win or lose his bets, his previous record in this regard, his personal circumstances, etc. The number and size of the bets tends to be the most influential of these. His admission of guilt will have been considered as a mitigating factor.

It will be interesting to read the regulatory commission's reasoning when published.

Edited May 18, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

That's a category 2 offence. It's a Cat 1 offence for any player to place a bet on any football match anywhere in the world. That's the fundamental prohibition.

As I said earlier in the thread, there are six categories and they increase in severity from the two mentioned above to the most serious - a bet placed on a particular occurrence involving the player who placed the bet.

The vast majority of betting cases investigated by the FA involve category 2, 3, and 4 offences. Cat 3 is a bet placed on your own team to win, Cat 4 is betting that your own team will lose.

Cat 4 is subdivided into 4(a) bet to lose and you play (or are an unused sub) in the match, and 4(b) bet to lose but you don't take part. Obviously 4(a) is very serious and tends to attract a ban of over a year, 4(b) is less serious.

Looking at historical sanctions and Toney's 8 month ban, I suspect that his case involved a few Cat 4(b) offences, the average sanction for which is between 20-40 weeks (5-9 months(ish)). The record sanction for a Cat 4(b) offence is 57 weeks and that record is held by the honourable Mr. J. Barton who bet on his own team to lose no less than 15 times.

A number of aggravating and mitigating factors will also have been considered in arriving at the 8 month ban. They include the obvious such as size and number of bets (of each category), did Toney win or lose his bets, his previous record in this regard, his personal circumstances, etc. The number and size of the bets tends to be the most influential of these. His admission of guilt will have been considered as a mitigating factor.

It will be interesting to read the regulatory commission's reasoning when published.

 

Thanks for the clarifying. 

[marcofisher]

54 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Is this confirmed that he is a gambling addict? The info I read was 232 bets over a 4 year period and without knowing the amounts/things he bet on I would say it's hard to judge if the 8 months is a harsh or lenient punishment, or if he really has a addiction (if he does then I guess he would have had help already and will get continuing support through the ban when he can't train).

Shame for Toney because I think a queue of big clubs could have offered him a much bigger contract/chance to play at a higher level this summer. I remember Suarez getting banned for biting and then tearing up the league the following season so if Toney comes back firing then this won't hold him back for too long.

There hasn’t been any admission or anything from what I have seen. But he wouldn’t have been naive to the risks, he will now lose his livelihood for 8 months. So much to lose and so little to gain would raise concerns that there is a larger underlying issue.

Knowing the category of the offences as highlighted above would refine the conversation somewhat.

[Ian M]

4 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

There hasn’t been any admission or anything from what I have seen. But he wouldn’t have been naive to the risks, he will now lose his livelihood for 8 months. So much to lose and so little to gain would raise concerns that there is a larger underlying issue.

Knowing the category of the offences as highlighted above would refine the conversation somewhat.

Also, I’ve read above the bets were over a 4 year period, do we know when that 4 year period was? It could well be historical, before he was on the PL wage that has people saying he didn’t need the money.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, Ian M said:

Also, I’ve read above the bets were over a 4 year period, do we know when that 4 year period was? It could well be historical, before he was on the PL wage that has people saying he didn’t need the money.

February 2017 - January 2021.

Brentford were promoted in May 2021.

So he wasn't on Prem wages, but was still offending whilst on Championship money (admittedly not top end Championship money).

Regardless, even the very wealthiest can become desperate for money if they live beyond their means.

Edited May 18, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[The Humble Realist]

Will be interesting to see the full report once published. 

What did he bet on etc

Did he bet on things he had information on potentially etc

 

[Slippin cider]

Not very bright some people….

[RedM]

4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I guess every footballer knows the rules; placing just one bet is illegal. Whether he's strictly an addict or not, being unable (or unwilling) to control the need to bet on such matches suggests a lack of impulse-control.  It isn't hard to be found out.

Bet on the nags instead!  People in racing I know bet on anything other than horses. Their bans are even more severe than football's, because of the history of the sport. 

Indeed. Actually even most club employees, I'm talking about everyone else other than the playing staff, are not allowed to bet on football.

As for Toney, I guess Brentford will pay him as they will want to keep their prize asset happy?However I think they also will be fully within their rights to withhold wages due to the fact that it isn't their fault he is unavailable to them. they will have to pay out additional money to secure a replacement perhaps.

[marcofisher]

1 hour ago, RedM said:

Indeed. Actually even most club employees, I'm talking about everyone else other than the playing staff, are not allowed to bet on football.

As for Toney, I guess Brentford will pay him as they will want to keep their prize asset happy?However I think they also will be fully within their rights to withhold wages due to the fact that it isn't their fault he is unavailable to them. they will have to pay out additional money to secure a replacement perhaps.

If reports are to be believed, they are leveraging it to get him on a longer contract. 

[Gert Mare]

On 17/03/2023 at 07:56, Robbored said:

Toney is in good form and Southgate selects strikers who are scoring goals the same names, regardless of current form - whatever is going on outside of football in his life should not get in the way.

Fixed that for you  

[Oh Louie louie]

He's got better every year out the last four, the fa as normal cutting off their nose to spite their face, if rashford or kane get injured, this could come back on them, don't know the ins and outs but everytime I've watched him he gives his all

[Red_Alligator]

So, "He's not the messiah..........."

More senior Reds will know. 

[Oh Louie louie]

If I was a Brentford fan, I'd think his twenty goal contribution says hes not betting close to home, hes no Lou macari, 

[1team]

20 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

When I think about this then it makes me think has the integrity of the league been compromised by the FAs handling of this? 

Since pleading guilty he's continued to play and has potentially impacted relegation and European places etc. Spurs now have an easier game against Brentford because Toney is banned.

Man City have won the league but let's imagine it went down to the last game, Tony scored in the game against Arsenal which ended 1-1. City ( how very dare you) have Brentford last game of season and now have an easier game against them without Toney.

Also 2 months of the ban is in the off season when really it should have been from start of the season. So any team he plays against in his 1st 2 months back can feel hard done by.

 

[Midred]

Is the Brentford manager being disingenuous when he says that the club will support Toney in every way they can? He's known about this since February and almost certainly gained a few wins from the goals scored. Or has this scuppered their summer trading plans?