Eliasson next season

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

I’m not sure either post here is correct. If NE was an excellent footballer poorly utilised, then other clubs would have seen that, taken him on, and made him a success at a decent level of football. The Greek league, as noted, is 15th in UEFA standings - it’s below the Championship in relative strength and also below Ligue 1. He’s gone down the ladder to a level where he appears to be doing well and fair play to him (although he’s not guaranteed to be playing champions league any more than Celtic are - Scotland being a higher coefficient incidentally). So I don’t agree he’s a million miles from us in a good way - he’s got a title at a lower level and a chance of playing Champ League, but so do Czech Republic and Norwegian champions who are next to Greece on the UEFA list!

However, if he was a championship footballer (or even a footballer at a level or two below championship), he’d be at a higher level at 27, or around the national team. It can’t be everyone in football not seeing it or using him badly.

Great crosser. Signed via stats IIRC (I believe he was LJs “Knockaert”). But one we were right to sell and who didn’t show a sign of improvement - or most key football intelligence - in his time here and the move down the levels bears that out.

effing  

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Got to agree, DB. 

We didn't really improve his game other than making him a bit more physically robust, and age probably took care of most of that, but I always thought he might've done better elsewhere. 

Those Judo lessons!

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

He's played one game all season where he lasted 90 mins. Either subbed every game or came on as a sub. 

No where good enough for the Championship. 

I have to agree with you.

I always remember when we were chasing a game and LJ would bring him on, and my falsely placed optimism that he would do something to create a golden chance for a striker to equalize or get us the winner.

As I said my naive optimism was ill placed.

I think that those of my generation tend to get excited when a wide player is introduced in the hope that something could be created against a tiring defense - it was the same scenario with Wes Burns for example.

It rarely worked out that way for us.

 

[Nugget]

Did that lovely step over and cross - every single time… but it was a good cross at least 

[Searles]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

 

I’m not sure either post here is correct. If NE was an excellent footballer poorly utilised, then other clubs would have seen that, taken him on, and made him a success at a decent level of football. The Greek league, as noted, is 15th in UEFA standings - it’s below the Championship in relative strength and also below Ligue 1. He’s gone down the ladder to a level where he appears to be doing well and fair play to him (although he’s not guaranteed to be playing champions league any more than Celtic are - Scotland being a higher coefficient incidentally). So I don’t agree he’s a million miles from us in a good way - he’s got a title at a lower level and a chance of playing Champ League, but so do Czech Republic and Norwegian champions who are next to Greece on the UEFA list!

However, if he was a championship footballer (or even a footballer at a level or two below championship), he’d be at a higher level at 27, or around the national team. It can’t be everyone in football not seeing it or using him badly.

Great crosser. Signed via stats IIRC (I believe he was LJs “Knockaert”). But one we were right to sell and who didn’t show a sign of improvement - or most key football intelligence - in his time here and the move down the levels bears that out.

I mean there are so many flaws here but let’s just focus on one area of complete nonsense. “Didn’t show a sign of improvement”.

17/18 - 13 games 0 goals 0 assists

18/19 - 33 games 2 goals 6 assists

19/20 - 37 games 3 goals 12 assists 

I mean it’s just rubbish and factually incorrect, if you’re going to try and go to so much effort to slate an ex player at least focus on someone who was useless. 

[Jimbo123]

The thought that Eliasson wasn't good enough in the Championship despite his final full season for us having the best assist to minutes ratio in the league by an absolute distance is hilarious.

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, Searles said:

I mean there are so many flaws here but let’s just focus on one area of complete nonsense. “Didn’t show a sign of improvement”.

17/18 - 13 games 0 goals 0 assists

18/19 - 33 games 2 goals 6 assists

19/20 - 37 games 3 goals 12 assists 

I mean it’s just rubbish and factually incorrect, if you’re going to try and go to so much effort to slate an ex player at least focus on someone who was useless. 

So, which parts are flawed and factually incorrect?

- Greeces coefficient?

- The fact he’s gone down the levels?

- The fact he’s not guaranteed champions league?

- The proximity of Czech Republic and Norway?

Nope. All factually correct. All you have is an opinion. And anyone who knows football will tell you that goals/assists aren’t the full story. Hell, there has been a lot of debate on here (and wider) over Scott’s lack of goals/assists but that doesn’t reflect what he brings to the team.

I watched Eliasson for three years. He left as positionally naive as the day he arrived (which in turn impacted the team negatively). And whether you think he was a good player or not at this level, it’s totally factually correct to say he’s now playing - and not even starting every week  at a level ranked below where we are now, so I’d suggest more established football judges than you or me share my opinion.

But, y’know. Facts. Innit.
 

 

 

[Searles]

21 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So, which parts are flawed and factually incorrect?

- Greeces coefficient?

- The fact he’s gone down the levels?

- The fact he’s not guaranteed champions league?

- The proximity of Czech Republic and Norway?

Nope. All factually correct. All you have is an opinion. And anyone who knows football will tell you that goals/assists aren’t the full story. Hell, there has been a lot of debate on here (and wider) over Scott’s lack of goals/assists but that doesn’t reflect what he brings to the team.

I watched Eliasson for three years. He left as positionally naive as the day he arrived (which in turn impacted the team negatively). And whether you think he was a good player or not at this level, it’s totally factually correct to say he’s now playing - and not even starting every week  at a level ranked below where we are now, so I’d suggest more established football judges than you or me share my opinion.

But, y’know. Facts. Innit.
 

 

 

I respect that you are trying here but just re-read my last post. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Searles said:

I mean there are so many flaws here but let’s just focus on one area of complete nonsense. “Didn’t show a sign of improvement”.

17/18 - 13 games 0 goals 0 assists

18/19 - 33 games 2 goals 6 assists

19/20 - 37 games 3 goals 12 assists 

I mean it’s just rubbish and factually incorrect, if you’re going to try and go to so much effort to slate an ex player at least focus on someone who was useless. 

I don’t think he was as good as those numbers actually play out in terms of team impact.  He was tactically naive, left his full-back exposed, and when you hear players like Jack Hunt say he’d rather have Marley Watkins in front of him, because at least he put effort in and tried to help out, then you get an appreciation of the rounded (or not so rounded) player in front of him.

Eliasson was a lot of oohs and aahs, the player a crowd likes, but who’s teammates are hugely frustrated by.

How many times did he assist Diedhiou in his time here?  Partly Fam’s fault too admittedly.

He wasn’t crap, he wasn’t great either.  He’s potentially gonna play in the Champions League because he’s at a club in an inferior league.  Ben Wright anyone?

[Searles]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he was as good as those numbers actually play out in terms of team impact.  He was tactically naive, left his full-back exposed, and when you hear players like Jack Hunt say he’d rather have Marley Watkins in front of him, because at least he put effort in and tried to help out, then you get an appreciation of the rounded (or not so rounded) player in front of him.

Eliasson was a lot of oohs and aahs, the player a crowd likes, but who’s teammates are hugely frustrated by.

How many times did he assist Diedhiou in his time here?  Partly Fam’s fault too admittedly.

He wasn’t crap, he wasn’t great either.  He’s potentially gonna play in the Champions League because he’s at a club in an inferior league.  Ben Wright anyone?

Oh I completely agree, but this idea that he didn’t show any signs of improvement or that he is a “level or 2” below the championship is just nonsense and a bit embarrassing to read.

[Offside]

I liked watching him play, especially the way he was so quick with his feet to give himself space to put crosses in. But I agree he wasn’t good defensively. 

[maxjak]

6 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

Lee johnson is such an idiot!

A 4 year contract at 10 k a week.................  i wish  to be such an idiot?

[Simon bristol]

14 minutes ago, maxjak said:

A 4 year contract at 10 k a week.................  i wish  to be such an idiot?

True enough!!! Hes been found out though, hes on the downward slope now.

[maxjak]

33 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

True enough!!! Hes been found out though, hes on the downward slope now.

OK..............Fair enough.............but he is still earning 10K a week on a 4 year contract..Ha!!

[Red Skin]

A lot of blame being put of LJ for signing Eliasson as a vanity project without knowing where to play him.   I'm not convinced it was LJ that instigated a lot of this. 

My reckoning is that it was MA treating the club and a hothouse for turning promising young players into expensive sales a few years down the line without any DoF or philosophy of the type of football or system we wanted to play.  (MA's contract maybe incentivised this or it was pure vanity, I'm not sure which).  The irony being that without such a system players aren't able to develop and realise their potential to achieve those sales. 

I'd have loved to see CO'D and Eliasson in a front three with someone like Conway through the middle.  Both players I feel had all the freedom of playing expansive attacking football coached out of them at a critical stage in their development.  

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Red Skin

[PHILINFRANCE]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think he was as good as those numbers actually play out in terms of team impact.  He was tactically naive, left his full-back exposed, and when you hear players like Jack Hunt say he’d rather have Marley Watkins in front of him, because at least he put effort in and tried to help out, then you get an appreciation of the rounded (or not so rounded) player in front of him.

Eliasson was a lot of oohs and aahs, the player a crowd likes, but who’s teammates are hugely frustrated by.

How many times did he assist Diedhiou in his time here?  Partly Fam’s fault too admittedly.

He wasn’t crap, he wasn’t great either.  He’s potentially gonna play in the Champions League because he’s at a club in an inferior league.  Ben Wright anyone?

I had to look it up, but I see that ex-City player Ben Wright (I am pretty sure I have no recollection whatsoever of him being at the club) joined his former manager, Benny L, to play for Viking, and scored against Chelsea in the UEFA Cup.

Google is amazing, isn’t it?

[SouthStandSteve]

Our version of Robben  did the same thing every time but worked a fair few times!

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

A lot of blame being put of LJ for signing Eliasson as a vanity project without knowing where to play him.   I'm not convinced it was LJ that instigated a lot of this. 

My reckoning is that it was MA treating the club and a hothouse for turning promising young players into expensive sales a few years down the line without any DoF or philosophy of the type of football or system we wanted to play.  (MA's contract maybe incentivised this or it was pure vanity, I'm not sure which).  The irony being that without such a system players aren't able to develop and realise their potential to achieve those sales. 

I'd have loved to see CO'D and Eliasson in a front three with someone like Conway through the middle.  Both players I feel had all the freedom of playing expansive attacking football coached out of them at a critical stage in their development.  

 

I’m sure his bonus was linked to financial performance, which isn’t unsurprising really for a CEO, but can of course be a conflict of interests too, ie in his vested interest to sell players to keep losses lower than for the benefit of squad development.

It just so happens that I have a spreadsheet of his Director Salary vs Player Trading / Transfer Profit.

You can make of it what you will!

[NcnsBcfc]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m sure his bonus was linked to financial performance, which isn’t unsurprising really for a CEO, but can of course be a conflict of interests too, ie in his vested interest to sell players to keep losses lower than for the benefit of squad development.

It just so happens that I have a spreadsheet of his Director Salary vs Player Trading / Transfer Profit.

You can make of it what you will!

Blimey those figures for 2018/19 & 2019/20 are stark aren't they @Davefevs?

Somewhat potential conflict of interest in driving transfers isn't there?

Edited May 16, 2023 by NcnsBcfc

[Red-Robbo]

58 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

A lot of blame being put of LJ for signing Eliasson as a vanity project without knowing where to play him.   

 

 

While I agree with your post, I'm not sure I'd call the signing a "vanity project" - Eliasson was unknown in England - more of a symptom of the Mark Ashton initiated scattergun "trawl everything up" approach to recruitment.

Someone who is a natural winger brought in to a team that mainly did not play wingers. 

And as has been pointed on, we didn't coach to improve this young player. It was just accepted that 100% of his game was crosses from near the touch-line. If he was limited, we certainly didn't do much to improve his skill-set. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Exception or rule but Eliasson assist to Weimann opening day v Leeds 2019 was definitely not a cross from out wide. He drifted in a bit there. Little bit  before had a more conventional cutting inside and cross. He also won a free kick in a dangerous position , again centrally in these highlights.

We could probably have developed and utilised him better.

08:56-09:33

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[petehinton]

1 hour ago, Red Skin said:

A lot of blame being put of LJ for signing Eliasson as a vanity project without knowing where to play him.   I'm not convinced it was LJ that instigated a lot of this. 

My reckoning is that it was MA treating the club and a hothouse for turning promising young players into expensive sales a few years down the line without any DoF or philosophy of the type of football or system we wanted to play.  (MA's contract maybe incentivised this or it was pure vanity, I'm not sure which).  The irony being that without such a system players aren't able to develop and realise their potential to achieve those sales. 

I'd have loved to see CO'D and Eliasson in a front three with someone like Conway through the middle.  Both players I feel had all the freedom of playing expansive attacking football coached out of them at a critical stage in their development.  

 

LJ said at a fans forum at AG he found eliasson by wyscout (or something similar) whilst on his laptop lying on the sofa!! and think he was signed without anyone watching him live as well

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, petehinton said:

LJ said at a fans forum at AG he found eliasson by wyscout (or something similar) whilst on his laptop lying on the sofa!! and think he was signed without anyone watching him live as well

Was definitely found from a “data brief”…find me a player with similar stats to Knockaert.  I doubt LJ crunched the numbers himself though.

I’m not sure whether he was never watched live or not…there was definitely a tweet from Tins at a stadium in Sweden, a bit before he signed.  I think it was assumed he was watching Engvall on loan at Djurgarden, but Engvall didn’t play and there was a wink emoji added to “wasted trip”, which think alluded to him being out there to watch Eliasson.

Nagy was the one who wasn’t watched I think.

[Searles]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Was definitely found from a “data brief”…find me a player with similar stats to Knockaert.  I doubt LJ crunched the numbers himself though.

I’m not sure whether he was never watched live or not…there was definitely a tweet from Tins at a stadium in Sweden, a bit before he signed.  I think it was assumed he was watching Engvall on loan at Djurgarden, but Engvall didn’t play and there was a wink emoji added to “wasted trip”, which think alluded to him being out there to watch Eliasson.

Nagy was the one who wasn’t watched I think.

Shame we never saw the best of Nagy.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 minute ago, Searles said:

Shame we never saw the best of Nagy.

I thought perhaps we did, against QPR.

Just a shame it didn’t happen more often.

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I thought perhaps we did, against QPR.

Just a shame it didn’t happen more often.

We did in his first couple of games.

He then got injured literally 1.5 games into his time here. Well maybe nor literally 1.5 but around that.

You couldn't make it up. Building a new team including some existing loanees made percent and then some new players.

Within a month to 6 weeks:

Kalas, DaSilva, Nagy, Afobe especially all out medium to long term.

DaSilva injured between game 1 and game 2, missed half a season. Kalas injured in August out got a while, Nagy 1.5 games in.

Afobe, poor Afobe injured in training after a few weeks. The partnership with Weimann with Palmer behind was giving us an interesting dimension or two.

Knock on effects were that Rowe was less of a threat from LWB than DaSilva, Kalas possibly enabled us to play a slightly higher line, Nagy was just getting settled and Afobe injury reduced our overall threat as Palmer was only really useful behind that strike pair.

Also meant what with the ongoing injuries to Korey that Massengo had to be used more often than planned at that point.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

26 minutes ago, Searles said:

Shame we never saw the best of Nagy.

Agreed. Don't believe too that we set up in a way that would habe enabled many players we had in that era to flourish, ironically the current version of 4-3-3 would have suited many I'm sure of it.

[Fammyfan]

He was a great signing but at the wrong time and that’s the frustrating thing as we would have got a lot more out of him in our current set up.

That being said, he was a decent signing, brought him in for £2m and sold him for £4m with plenty of assists from the bench.

[Red-Robbo]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We did in his first couple of games.

He then got injured literally 1.5 games into his time here. Well maybe nor literally 1.5 but around that.

You couldn't make it up. Building a new team including some existing loanees made percent and then some new players.

Within a month to 6 weeks:

Kalas, DaSilva, Nagy, Afobe especially all out medium to long term.

DaSilva injured between game 1 and game 2, missed half a season. Kalas injured in August out got a while, Nagy 1.5 games in.

Afobe, poor Afobe injured in training after a few weeks. The partnership with Weimann with Palmer behind was giving us an interesting dimension or two.

Knock on effects were that Rowe was less of a threat from LWB than DaSilva, Kalas possibly enabled us to play a slightly higher line, Nagy was just getting settled and Afobe injury reduced our overall threat as Palmer was only really useful behind that strike pair.

Also meant what with the ongoing injuries to Korey that Massengo had to be used more often than planned at that point.

 

And we had "Dr Feelbad" leading the medical team that tried to get that lot fit.

Afobe was the real loss. His loss made a massive difference to where the team was going, it was too little, too late by the time he returned. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Searles said:

Shame we never saw the best of Nagy.

He seemed made to play in a system that Hungary play, a team that concede possession, set a deep block, and rely on counter-attacking play.  Was that was LJ was trying to evolve us into?  If so, I would never have guessed from recruitment and tactics.

I do think there was more to his game than that in fairness, but his lack of heart was so obvious, any opposing CM would be physical with him in the first challenges and that would be that 1:1 battle won.  Whether that was always there or came following his injury I don’t know.  There was no way he was dying for the City cause over Hungary caps.

He was also a master of getting rid of the ball to a teammate under pressure, rather than take responsibility himself.  A nice little 1 pass / 1 successful pass in the stats, but the receiver often had little chance to do anything with the pass.

[Searles]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He seemed made to play in a system that Hungary play, a team that concede possession, set a deep block, and rely on counter-attacking play.  Was that was LJ was trying to evolve us into?  If so, I would never have guessed from recruitment and tactics.

I do think there was more to his game than that in fairness, but his lack of heart was so obvious, any opposing CM would be physical with him in the first challenges and that would be that 1:1 battle won.  Whether that was always there or came following his injury I don’t know.  There was no way he was dying for the City cause over Hungary caps.

He was also a master of getting rid of the ball to a teammate under pressure, rather than take responsibility himself.  A nice little 1 pass / 1 successful pass in the stats, but the receiver often had little chance to do anything with the pass.

At the time I thought we had a real player on our hands, but in hindsight I think he was very limited. Very good at mopping up play and passing it on but other than that I think he offered very little. Probably why he is in Serie B. I think he had decent physical attributes in that he had energy and good fitness. Other than that not sure what he has about his game tbh.