Brighton

[Fred89]

16 hours ago, Super said:

There can't be many better run clubs than them. They paid 4.5M for Moises Caicedo and sold him for 115M. Along with big profits made on Cucurella, Macallister, Ben White etc. Probably all paid for the new Stadium.

Southampton were similar but fact is if you continue to sell your best players you will lose momentum eventually and create no memories and eventually be relegated anyway 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Fred89

[BritAbroad]

2 hours ago, downendcity said:

 

We've not done too bad turning Webster from a £2-m player into a £20m one, and our academy lads that cost nothing into £13m ( Kelly) £10m ( Semenyo) and £25m (Scott).

The difference with Brighton is that they are selling players who've had premier league experience. What would we have got for Scott had he played the last 2 seasons for us in the prem - £40/50m?

I'm in no way saying we've done badly, more that it's a market we never seem to explore too much. Other clubs in the past have utilized it well - currently Brighton seem to be utilizing it very well (Brentford have had success recently too, before their promotion). Our usage of the foreign market hasn't been too great. I dunno if it's our scouting network.... just think we are missing out.

[Fred89]

21 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

You can't just have an over entitled whinge about clubs overtaking us & not balance it with looking at clubs that we have over taken.

We have no more devine right to success than any other club. 

Of course it can be frustrating - but how do you think the likes of Derby, Wigan, Ipswich, Portsmouth etc feel..?.

Wigan Portsmouth are a similar size club to us, those 2 teams have bypassed us and won FA Cups and also been in the Premier League for over 6 seasons each while we have been floating around in League 1.

The fact our club has had one play off chance of Premier League football in 20 years while teams like Luton can got to the conference and back qualify for 2 consecutive playoffs and win them

The fact Blackpool can win a playoffs come down and make another playoff final straight away having signed no one

The fact Brentford can Languish in League 1 to 2 for years and suddenly come up qualify for 3 playoffs and 2 finals win one and now be on the way to being a sustainable premier league club

The fact Bournemouth can win consecutive promotions from League 2 all the way to the Premiership and stay there for 5 years All on similar if not worse budgets to ours!

At least Derby have had promotions and looked likely to go up again 

Dont butter it up with not having a divine right, we haven’t even been in the competition for it!!!! something has been very wrong at our club on the pitch for a long time ! We are seeing promising signs now but if we aren’t up there this year then we need to ask why!

Even national media were questioning it at the end of last season “biggest club to never see premiership football “ articles I seen! 
It is ridiculous 

 

The above is also without mentioning teams like Cardiff, Swansea , Burnley, QPR and many more all who have had time at the top table some more than once!

Im convinced selling our best players at vital moments has been our biggest sticking point. Everyone has their price but why! Where’s the ambition let them go on a free gamble you might win as the above clubs won

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Fred89

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, Fred89 said:

Wigan Portsmouth are a similar size club to us, those 2 teams have bypassed us and won FA Cups and also been in the Premier League for over 6 seasons each while we have been floating around in League 1.

The fact our club has had one play off chance of Premier League football in 20 years while teams like Luton can got to the conference and back qualify for 2 consecutive playoffs and win them

The fact Blackpool can win a playoffs come down and make another playoff final straight away having signed no one

The fact Brentford can Languish in League 1 to 2 for years and suddenly come up qualify for 3 playoffs and 2 finals win one and now be on the way to being a sustainable premier league club

The fact Bournemouth can win consecutive promotions from League 2 all the way to the Premiership and stay there for 5 years All on similar if not worse budgets to ours!

At least Derby have had promotions and looked likely to go up again 

Dont butter it up with not having a divine right, we haven’t even been in the competition for it!!!! something has been very wrong at our club on the pitch for a long time ! We are seeing promising signs now but if we aren’t up there this year then we need to ask why!

Even national media were questioning it at the end of last season “biggest club to never see premiership football “ articles I seen! 
It is ridiculous 

I get the frustration, of course!

Many clubs seem to find that magic formula, which we seem to never quite nail at this level.

Having said that - we are in the right position to be 1 excellent season away from getting to the top flight - after a ridiculous length of period away from it.

Every year we fail to achieve it, the harder it gets as other go up & come back with added financial clout to compete with.

23 other teams probably have similar aspirations at the start of each season - so it's not easy!

Plenty of other clubs would swap with our position in a heartbeat- but yes, we absolutely need to have that golden period ourselves, soon.

[cidered abroad]

8 hours ago, BritAbroad said:

I'm in no way saying we've done badly, more that it's a market we never seem to explore too much. Other clubs in the past have utilized it well - currently Brighton seem to be utilizing it very well (Brentford have had success recently too, before their promotion). Our usage of the foreign market hasn't been too great. I dunno if it's our scouting network.... just think we are missing out.

I understand your thinking that it would be good if we as a Championship club should copy a mid table Prem.

There is one big problem, IMO, if we did that.

Most foreign countries play "Walking Football". Pass pass and pass again. The opposition sit back, don't harry them until very close to the box. Now what happens in the Championship? IMO again it is the toughest league in the world. So would we be better if we brought in players from abroad or those like the one's we've recruited in the last two years?

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Fred89 said:

Im convinced selling our best players at vital moments has been our biggest sticking point. Everyone has their price but why! Where’s the ambition let them go on a free gamble you might win as the above clubs won

It’s fine to sell your best players for good money, the skill is having a combo of top Recruitment, Academy players pushing for the first team, and succession planning in place either from Academy or previous recruitment….so that the loss of a player is mitigated.

[Redland]

I remember that when our planning application for the new stadium at Ashton Vale planning went before Bristol City Council the chairman of Brighton kindly came up to the meeting in Bristol and spoke in favour of the application. He explained how the development of the AMEX had benefited both football club and Brighton as a whole

Although planning permission was granted the development was subsequently prevented by the Village Green farce. I believe the law has now been changed to prevent this situation happening again in that an application for a Village Green cannot be made after a planning application has been submitted. 

[BritAbroad]

4 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I understand your thinking that it would be good if we as a Championship club should copy a mid table Prem.

There is one big problem, IMO, if we did that.

Most foreign countries play "Walking Football". Pass pass and pass again. The opposition sit back, don't harry them until very close to the box. Now what happens in the Championship? IMO again it is the toughest league in the world. So would we be better if we brought in players from abroad or those like the one's we've recruited in the last two years?

 

That is a fair and valid point.

[Touch_my_butter]

On 14/08/2023 at 08:21, GrahamC said:

Maybe, but my point was the words are just meaningless, aren’t they?

We don’t replicate these clubs in most ways & so they just reveal a fundamental misunderstanding by SL of how football works. 

Tony Bloom is a professional gambler – he takes strategic risks, some that win and some that lose, with a strategy of yielding a net-positive return in the long run.

Steve Lansdown is an accountant – he manages the flow of capital, which ebbs and flows based on market conditions, to create a stable and financially robust business. 

Different backgrounds; different approaches.

Tony Bloom is uniquely suited to Brighton's moneyball approach. Steve Lansdown is not, however we have zero chance of going bankrupt under Lansdown. 

[tin]

On 14/08/2023 at 09:09, Bristol Oil Services said:

Tony Bloom's a gambler, a chancer, bit of a Brighton geezer, I think? He gambled a bit with Brighton and took a few chances, spent a few bob, sailed a bit close to the ffp "wind" and they got to the Prem. Steve's an accountant, he gambled a bit in the first Championship stint, took a bit of a chance, gambled a bit, spent a few bob, got in a pickle, and we found ourselves back in L1.

I think.

Tony Bloom is also good mates with Matt Benham, the Brentford owner, who I think learnt his trade at Bloom’s professional betting company, StarLizard. Both are incredibly smart individuals and can spot opportunities in the market before most algorithms do. In fact, I think they were even involved with creating the gambling algorithms. Unlike SL, their risks are never hopeful punts and in a nutshell that’s why it’s paid off for them and not us IMO. 

[Grey Fox]

On 14/08/2023 at 10:23, downendcity said:

Had SL said " thanks to Semenyo's sale earlier this year the club's finances are very sound. As a result, we are free to spend Scott's transfer proceeds on reinforcing our squad", it would have immediately put up the price for any players we are looking to buy.

Even with the inroads made into pulling the finances back since Ashton left I suspect we will still be trading at a loss. As long as ffp limits how much SL is allowed to put into the club then if we want to maintain a competitive squad, there will be a need to sell players to balance the ffp books. Whether that is £25m a year I'm not sure, but perhaps it's a coincidence that it happens to be the amount of Scott's transfer fee, in which case my first paragraph might be relevant! 

 

The “ coincidence “ is that £25M is the figure SL is widely reported as having to bail the club out with each year. Therefore taking SL at his word isn’t it more likely his statement is indicating that he is not looking to continue to do this. As to new signings, our owner stating there will not be any major purchases is as good a source as we can get.

[NickJ]

On 14/08/2023 at 08:58, Bar BS3 said:

Plenty have over taken us.... we have over taken plenty of others...

That's football..!

Who have we overtaken?

[downendcity]

37 minutes ago, Grey Fox said:

The “ coincidence “ is that £25M is the figure SL is widely reported as having to bail the club out with each year. Therefore taking SL at his word isn’t it more likely his statement is indicating that he is not looking to continue to do this. As to new signings, our owner stating there will not be any major purchases is as good a source as we can get.

You could be right and time will tell. 

 

 

 

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Who have we overtaken?

Seriously..?!

Look at the league 1 table for a start...

 

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, Bar BS3 said:

Seriously..?!

Look at the league 1 table for a start...

 

So we’ve overtaken Carlisle?

[marcofisher]

4 minutes ago, NickJ said:

So we’ve overtaken Carlisle?

Portsmouth, Bolton, Derby etc etc…

[Bristol Oil Services]

9 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Portsmouth, Bolton, Derby etc etc…

And of Portsmouth, Bolton, Derby and Bristol City, which one of these is going to return to the top division next/first? And which one is best placed to do so at this moment? 

[marcofisher]

2 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

And of Portsmouth, Bolton, Derby and Bristol City, which one of these is going to return to the top division next/first? And which one is best placed to do so at this moment? 

Bristol City

Edited August 16, 2023 by marcofisher

[Merrick's Marvels]

15 hours ago, tin said:

Tony Bloom is also good mates with Matt Benham, the Brentford owner, who I think learnt his trade at Bloom’s professional betting company, StarLizard. Both are incredibly smart individuals and can spot opportunities in the market before most algorithms do. In fact, I think they were even involved with creating the gambling algorithms. Unlike SL, their risks are never hopeful punts and in a nutshell that’s why it’s paid off for them and not us IMO. 

Bloom is the opposite of good mates with Benham!!!!! You're right to say Benham used to work for Bloom but they're mortal enemies now. Bloom refuses to be in the same room as him and when Brighton play at Brentford, he stands in the away end.

[tin]

2 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Bloom is the opposite of good mates with Benham!!!!! You're right to say Benham used to work for Bloom but they're mortal enemies now. Bloom refuses to be in the same room as him and when Brighton play at Brentford, he stands in the away end.

Thanks, MM. I didn’t know that, but they certainly were good mates not so long ago. Regardless of that, my point was more that nothing is down to luck with those two individuals. Unlike SL who’s gripped by inertia, they’re go-getters. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, tin said:

Thanks, MM. I didn’t know that, but they certainly were good mates not so long ago. Regardless of that, my point was more that nothing is down to luck with those two individuals. Unlike SL who’s gripped by inertia, they’re go-getters. 

Seems a bit reductive I think, go-getter v inertia.

Yes and no IMO..There was clear evidence of a strategy with both as well.

In Brentford's it was the trading model, scrap the academy, lots of data based but not solely data based scouting etc. Moving to a new ground will have been part of it, getting promoted to coincide was also a happy coincidence.

Brighton did put significant infrastructure in place too, Amex alone wouldn't have been cheap..they also accelerated expenditure on players but not in a scattergun or reckless way as they built up in the Championship.

They actually had gained Category One status as far back as summer 2014, going into 2014-15. Some 3 years before their first PL season.

Their infrastructure and club growth was rapid. Underpinned by strong foundations though.

A fanbase that grew rapidly also helped.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Example of what I'm on about, huge surge in fanbase very much would have helped.

Last year at Withdean League One vs Championship at the Amex.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

We have not in my time seen a growth surge like that, both in percentage or in absolute terms..13k in Year 1, a further 6k in Year 2.

When did we last average 25k? I'm guessing the top flight days.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Merrick's Marvels]

45 minutes ago, tin said:

Thanks, MM. I didn’t know that, but they certainly were good mates not so long ago. Regardless of that, my point was more that nothing is down to luck with those two individuals. Unlike SL who’s gripped by inertia, they’re go-getters. 

Agreed  He's substantially more "risk averse" than they are. Cautious, conservative, call it what you will. 

[sglosbcfc]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We have not in my time seen a growth surge like that, both in percentage or in absolute terms..13k in Year 1, a further 6k in Year 2.

When did we last average 25k? I'm guessing the top flight days.

When we were last in the top flight, attendances were very low nationally when compared with today. I wouldn't mind guessing that 80%+ of clubs get higher average attendances now than they did in 76-80., Despite the fact that many of the clubs would have had higher capacities back in the standing days. I am convinced that IF City were to be promoted this season (allow me to dream a second), we would sell the 23,000 home tickets for every Premier League game next season without any problem.

[tin]

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems a bit reductive I think, go-getter v inertia.

Yes and no IMO..There was clear evidence of a strategy with both as well.

In Brentford's it was the trading model, scrap the academy, lots of data based but not solely data based scouting etc. Moving to a new ground will have been part of it, getting promoted to coincide was also a happy coincidence.

Brighton did put significant infrastructure in place too, Amex alone wouldn't have been cheap..they also accelerated expenditure on players but not in a scattergun or reckless way as they built up in the Championship.

They actually had gained Category One status as far back as summer 2014, going into 2014-15. Some 3 years before their first PL season.

Their infrastructure and club growth was rapid. Underpinned by strong foundations though.

A fanbase that grew rapidly also helped.

There’s nothing crude or reductive about that IMO. Take the examples you gave: 1) Brentford stuck a trading model and abandoned the academy - that shows clear and consistent direction; 2) Brighton spent £93m on the Amex, Cat.1 academy, and player trading - they too have had a sustained, clear vision and stuck to it. Success in both cases is down to their visionary owners. 

Tell me, what happened to our five pillars? SL’s prudent, reactive, and risk-averse IMO and that’s the main reason why we lag behind the Brentfords and Brightons of this era. 

[Port Said Red]

On 14/08/2023 at 10:07, Grey Fox said:

Succession planning ??? Uncle Steve has already stated we are not going to spend the money, instead we are planning to sell off £25M worth of players every year. 
That is a plan to head straight to League One, to not pass Go , nor collect any value for the money you pay for your Season Ticket. 

Off you **** then. If you think the club is so badly run how can you keep supporting it? 

He said he didn't want to pay inflated prices, and there are often players available on a free or for bargain amounts, like Dickie, like Knight, like Roberts, do you genuinely believe that they have weakened our squad as a whole? You don't think that's succession planning?

I am sure we would all like to think that we could be in a position to hold on to a player of Scott's quality, but the truth is there are only a handful of clubs at even Prem level that could do so. 

The best we could do, and what we did was get top dollar for him, the same as Brighton with Caicedo and Macallister. 

If you can't see a difference between the way we are operating now to three years ago, then I feel that you can't look beyond your blinkered view of the club.

 

[sglosbcfc]

41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Example of what I'm on about, huge surge in fanbase very much would have helped.

Last year at Withdean League One vs Championship at the Amex.

Which site is this please?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, sglosbcfc said:

Which site is this please?

Sorry yes I'll dig it out.

https://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, sglosbcfc said:

When we were last in the top flight, attendances were very low nationally when compared with today. I wouldn't mind guessing that 80%+ of clubs get higher average attendances now than they did in 76-80., Despite the fact that many of the clubs would have had higher capacities back in the standing days. I am convinced that IF City were to be promoted this season (allow me to dream a second), we would sell the 23,000 home tickets for every Premier League game next season without any problem.

Oh yeah the potential here is huge. I also understand that in the late 1970s to mid 1980s attendances at football fell quite severely.

I could see us easily tbh if in the top flight and doing okay needing a bigger ground down the line.