Brighton

[LondonBristolian]

31 minutes ago, Grey Fox said:

They know they have to sell , but only when it suits them , after Mcallister left , several others pushed for a big money move, but we’re told they would have to stay till at least the next window. Brighton therefore had time to plan for the exits and in the end actually got more than the earlier offers. They also had their best season ever and qualified for Europe.

We , on the other hand, appear to have one plan only, which is to recruit, develop and sell. Source for this view , Uncle Steve’s latest interview.

This feels an odd point to raise - I think it's hard to argue against the fact we delayed Scott OR Semenyo until we had planned for their departures. I struggle to see how we would have got more for them in the future windows or how we could have been better planned for their departures - Semenyo went once Bell and Conway were ready and Scott has gone at a point when we've got 5 or 6 options in central midfield. 

There's a lot of sticks SL could justifiably be beaten with but I don't think this is one of them. 

[Bar BS3]

40 minutes ago, johnbytheriver said:

Glad we agree!

You can't just have an over entitled whinge about clubs overtaking us & not balance it with looking at clubs that we have over taken.

We have no more devine right to success than any other club. 

Of course it can be frustrating - but how do you think the likes of Derby, Wigan, Ipswich, Portsmouth etc feel..?.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Brighton caught a bit of a crest of a wave. I'd say momentum and timing as well as planning helped to push them on.

In the late 2000s, early 2010s their nice to the Amex was slated in as 2011-12.

In 2010-11 they got promoted back to the Championship. Final year at Withdean. Averaging gates of 7,7.5k.

Back up and suddenly they are in the 2nd tier at the Amex not the Withdean as happened at times in the early 2000s.

Gates surge to 20k plus. Money, momentum, room for fast growth.

They always had a large latent fanbase or a decent sized one that just disappeared fot years. Not the sole factor obviously but a large boost all the same.

We actually habe similarities as a club, city size etc.  Infrastructure first is not a bad shout but they had several years on us in this regard.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[SecretSam]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

And this is the point some posters refuse to acknowledge,

Selling players for offers too good to turn down will always happen, the key is sucession planning

And that's what I see the club putting in place, hence the production line from the academy in recent years

Back. Of. The. Net.

[italian dave]

40 minutes ago, downendcity said:

I know it's hypothetical but I wonder whether we might have seen the same impact had we been allowed to build the new stadium at Ashton Vale. Is it a coincidence that Brighton's success came on the back of building the Amex, although I'm  not suggesting it was the only reason? 

Definitely a case of "if you build it they will come".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before the pedants jump, I know that actual film quote was "he will come"!

Interesting you mention the stadium, because I was about to mention that in response to @LondonBristolians comment about the similarities between us and Brighton.

Whilst I agree with that in general terms, I wonder if there’s a significant difference in relation to what happened with the two stadiums. 

Brighton had at least as many problems, obstacles, hurdles put in their way with the Amex as we did with Ashton Vale. You’ve only got to look at where the Amex is - it’s in a far more obviously sensitive area.

But they persisted. Even though it took years and years, even though it meant playing at the Withdean temporarily. Compared to Brighton we gave up on Ashton Vale relatively quickly and easily.

I’m sure there were other factors, but I just wonder if that points to Brighton having leadership with a much clearer vision and a single minded determination. In comparison, we just shrugged our shoulders, compromised, changed direction very easily.

And maybe those traits have played out too in terms of our strategic plans for success in the pitch? 

[The Humble Realist]

They're well run but exactly the same things were being said about southampton 5 years ago ...

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Interesting you mention the stadium, because I was about to mention that in response to @LondonBristolians comment about the similarities between us and Brighton.

Whilst I agree with that in general terms, I wonder if there’s a significant difference in relation to what happened with the two stadiums. 

Brighton had at least as many problems, obstacles, hurdles put in their way with the Amex as we did with Ashton Vale. You’ve only got to look at where the Amex is - it’s in a far more obviously sensitive area.

But they persisted. Even though it took years and years, even though it meant playing at the Withdean temporarily. Compared to Brighton we gave up on Ashton Vale relatively quickly and easily.

I’m sure there were other factors, but I just wonder if that points to Brighton having leadership with a much clearer vision and a single minded determination. In comparison, we just shrugged our shoulders, compromised, changed direction very easily.

And maybe those traits have played out too in terms of our strategic plans for success in the pitch? 

You could be right. However the one thing I would say is that Brighton persisted because they had no real choice. Withdean wasn't a sustainable long term option and they had no other home.  Whereas we could develop Ashton Gate in a way that I reckon makes it well above the middle in a ranking of Championship stadia, even if it would leave us short in the top flight.

At the same time, you could argue there is something there:

Brentford had to come up with a new operating model as they couldn't compete with so many other teams in the geographical area and it has pushed them into the Premier League. 

Luton had to come up with an alternative recruitment model as they could not sustain Championship football without it and it has pushed them into the Premier League.

Brighton had to develop a top class stadium because they were homeless with out it.

All those teams have essentially succeeded because they had no other choice but to succeed. Maybe the problem is that we can afford not to be successful and that makes us a a bit comfortable...

[Tim Monaghan]

I've just been watching the Burnley documentary, and during a meeting with the board and investors, Vincent Company literally says “the only way to not lose money in the championship is to sell players and buy ones that will potentially make you money down the line”. Really interesting documentary so far. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

8 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

I've just been watching the Burnley documentary, and during a meeting with the board and investors, Vincent Company literally says “the only way to not lose money in the championship is to sell players and buy ones that will potentially make you money down the line”. Really interesting documentary so far. 

Is that with PP or without?

[downendcity]

12 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Interesting you mention the stadium, because I was about to mention that in response to @LondonBristolians comment about the similarities between us and Brighton.

Whilst I agree with that in general terms, I wonder if there’s a significant difference in relation to what happened with the two stadiums. 

Brighton had at least as many problems, obstacles, hurdles put in their way with the Amex as we did with Ashton Vale. You’ve only got to look at where the Amex is - it’s in a far more obviously sensitive area.

But they persisted. Even though it took years and years, even though it meant playing at the Withdean temporarily. Compared to Brighton we gave up on Ashton Vale relatively quickly and easily.

I’m sure there were other factors, but I just wonder if that points to Brighton having leadership with a much clearer vision and a single minded determination. In comparison, we just shrugged our shoulders, compromised, changed direction very easily.

And maybe those traits have played out too in terms of our strategic plans for success in the pitch? 

At that time I worked for a financial services company. One of the strings to their bow was investments in land without planning permission, but that had potential for obtaining it and then being sold to developers - hence the growth potential for investors. They worked with planning specialists, who were expert in knowing  with local authorities housing targets and for those with big shortfalls, identifying areas where the local authority would need more building and would therefore need to grant planning permission in what would previously have been regarded as "safe" green belt.

I was talking to one of the planning experts when they attended a team meeting. It turns out that he was a resident in the area at the time so lent his professional help to AV residents who objected to the stadium development. It was his advice that resulted in the "village green/dog walkers" objection. He was proud of his cunning plan and said that the club had literally no way to overcome such a tactic. It would not therefore be a surprise if SL's advisers told him much the same.

[Tim Monaghan]

1 minute ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Is that with PP or without?

PP? Sorry if I'm being thick 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 minute ago, Ghost Rider said:

PP? Sorry if I'm being thick 

Parachute Payments. 

I'd like to see Vince manage Rotherham, or even us, in the Championship, then talk about money in the Championship. With respect 

[Tim Monaghan]

7 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Parachute Payments. 

I'd like to see Vince manage Rotherham, or even us, in the Championship, then talk about money in the Championship. With respect 

haha, sorry, I WAS being thick
 

I think he was talking about the Championship as a whole, but you're right, although they were in a bit of a hole. The documentary is on sky, it's a REALLY interesting watch so far.

They go in deep at board level too. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Ghost Rider

[Mr Popodopolous]

Btw been having a quick look at Brighton. 

Very well run club but also worth noting thst as of the end of 2021-22 the debt to their owner was about £406m! To Tony Bloom.

That maybe coming down with some of the transfers, who knows if he will look to start repaying some loans via this but without a doubt £406m and counting.

Money is no sole guarantee, Chansiri, Mel Morris and Dai Yongge poured in quite a lot in a short space of time..our own SL has poured in a certain amount over longer. However it certainly helps.

Infrastructure spot on, fan base returning rapidly, most of their appointments good etc.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

14 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

You could be right. However the one thing I would say is that Brighton persisted because they had no real choice. Withdean wasn't a sustainable long term option and they had no other home.  Whereas we could develop Ashton Gate in a way that I reckon makes it well above the middle in a ranking of Championship stadia, even if it would leave us short in the top flight.

At the same time, you could argue there is something there:

Brentford had to come up with a new operating model as they couldn't compete with so many other teams in the geographical area and it has pushed them into the Premier League. 

Luton had to come up with an alternative recruitment model as they could not sustain Championship football without it and it has pushed them into the Premier League.

Brighton had to develop a top class stadium because they were homeless with out it.

All those teams have essentially succeeded because they had no other choice but to succeed. Maybe the problem is that we can afford not to be successful and that makes us a a bit comfortable...

I don't think comfortable is in NP's vocabulary!

[italian dave]

37 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

You could be right. However the one thing I would say is that Brighton persisted because they had no real choice. Withdean wasn't a sustainable long term option and they had no other home.  Whereas we could develop Ashton Gate in a way that I reckon makes it well above the middle in a ranking of Championship stadia, even if it would leave us short in the top flight.

At the same time, you could argue there is something there:

Brentford had to come up with a new operating model as they couldn't compete with so many other teams in the geographical area and it has pushed them into the Premier League. 

Luton had to come up with an alternative recruitment model as they could not sustain Championship football without it and it has pushed them into the Premier League.

Brighton had to develop a top class stadium because they were homeless with out it.

All those teams have essentially succeeded because they had no other choice but to succeed. Maybe the problem is that we can afford not to be successful and that makes us a a bit comfortable...

 

24 minutes ago, downendcity said:

At that time I worked for a financial services company. One of the strings to their bow was investments in land without planning permission, but that had potential for obtaining it and then being sold to developers - hence the growth potential for investors. They worked with planning specialists, who were expert in knowing  with local authorities housing targets and for those with big shortfalls, identifying areas where the local authority would need more building and would therefore need to grant planning permission in what would previously have been regarded as "safe" green belt.

I was talking to one of the planning experts when they attended a team meeting. It turns out that he was a resident in the area at the time so lent his professional help to AV residents who objected to the stadium development. It was his advice that resulted in the "village green/dog walkers" objection. He was proud of his cunning plan and said that the club had literally no way to overcome such a tactic. It would not therefore be a surprise if SL's advisers told him much the same.

Yep, points taken...and those were among the things I was thinking when I said 'other factors'! 

I just remember Brighton fans at the time of Ashton Vale saying 'don't give up' and that they'd also been told no chance of it getting approved. 

And sometimes it feels like SL (and I'm by no means anti-SL, quite the opposite) takes things so far but if that hasn't succeeded he just gives up and tries something different. Managers being an example! Not that he won't stick with managers, but he gets to a point and then doesn't just tweak things (even if that tweak means a new manager, but still following the same strategy) but he changes tack completely. Brighton have always struck me as being more like Swansea: they have a strategy and will only appoint a manager who buys into that strategy. SL allows managers, or Chief Execs, to whatever Ashton was, to determine strategy. 

[David Brent]

Good club.

Remember their chief executive at the time lending his support to Ashton Vale. He was heavily involved with the AMEX 

[Swede]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Maybe, but my point was the words are just meaningless, aren’t they?

We don’t replicate these clubs in most ways & so they just reveal a fundamental misunderstanding by SL of how football works. 

I'm pretty sure SL used them as a good example a fews years back with poetry in charge of who we would like to emulate 

[Major Isewater]

4 hours ago, TV Tom said:

And a one club city, which helps

Just like us. 
 

[Grey Fox]

2 hours ago, downendcity said:

Had SL said " thanks to Semenyo's sale earlier this year the club's finances are very sound. As a result, we are free to spend Scott's transfer proceeds on reinforcing our squad", it would have immediately put up the price for any players we are looking to buy.

Even with the inroads made into pulling the finances back since Ashton left I suspect we will still be trading at a loss. As long as ffp limits how much SL is allowed to put into the club then if we want to maintain a competitive squad, there will be a need to sell players to balance the ffp books. Whether that is £25m a year I'm not sure, but perhaps it's a coincidence that it happens to be the amount of Scott's transfer fee, in which case my first paragraph might be relevant! 

 

It’s also the sum SL is widely reported as putting in to the club each year, therefore a more likely scenario, in my opinion, is that his ambition is to make the club self financing at this level. He no longer believes that promotion is a viable goal due to parachute payments to our competitors and therefore will not finance a challenge.

He also has no intention of continuing his financing of the club, if possible, so do not expect the revenues from sales to be reinvested on any other than an occasional youngster from L1 who has the potential to be developed and sold, and the odd Championship journey man to keep us up.

As a Bristol City fan, is that what you want, does that rock your boat, or is that what you are prepared to accept?

[johnbytheriver]

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

You can't just have an over entitled whinge about clubs overtaking us & not balance it with looking at clubs that we have over taken.

We have no more devine right to success than any other club. 

Of course it can be frustrating - but how do you think the likes of Derby, Wigan, Ipswich, Portsmouth etc feel..?.

Glad we agree!

[BritAbroad]

3 hours ago, M.D said:

Chelsea have paid Brighton £223m in transfers in one year

 

Cucurella  £63m

Potter  £20m

Sanchez  £25m

Caicedo  £115m

Might've been more cost effective for them to buy the club.

 

The thing I wish we could do more of, that Brighton do very well, is get very good players from abroad at cheap prices then turn in a huge profit.

[cityexile]

27 minutes ago, BritAbroad said:

Might've been more cost effective for them to buy the club.

 

The thing I wish we could do more of, that Brighton do very well, is get very good players from abroad at cheap prices then turn in a huge profit.

Brighton have not only a very wealthy owner, it happens to have come from building a leading edge analytics company, which is clearly leveraged for their benefit. Others will catch up, but almost a unique set of circumstances.

[downendcity]

 

2 hours ago, BritAbroad said:

Might've been more cost effective for them to buy the club.

The thing I wish we could do more of, that Brighton do very well, is get very good players from abroad at cheap prices then turn in a huge profit.

We've not done too bad turning Webster from a £2-m player into a £20m one, and our academy lads that cost nothing into £13m ( Kelly) £10m ( Semenyo) and £25m (Scott).

The difference with Brighton is that they are selling players who've had premier league experience. What would we have got for Scott had he played the last 2 seasons for us in the prem - £40/50m?

[Ska Junkie]

9 hours ago, David Brent said:

Good club.

Remember their chief executive at the time lending his support to Ashton Vale. He was heavily involved with the AMEX 

Tony Bloom came to Bristol and appeared at one of the council meetings supporting the Vale iirc.

[fisherrich]

Brighton has been a very well run football club for many years. Since the Amex was built.
Bristol City was a shambles until Richard Gould came along. End of…. Rant over. Sorry.

Edited August 14, 2023 by fisherrich

[Barry Sheene]

11 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

 

Of course it can be frustrating - but how do you think the likes of Derby, Wigan, Ipswich, Portsmouth etc feel..?.

Everyone of the above named clubs have been to the promised land and one even won a trophy like the FA cup 

[David Brent]

18 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Tony Bloom came to Bristol and appeared at one of the council meetings supporting the Vale iirc.

Wasn’t it Martin Perry? 

[Ska Junkie]

3 minutes ago, David Brent said:

Wasn’t it Martin Perry? 

Could well have been DB.

[Bar BS3]

19 minutes ago, Barry Sheene said:

Everyone of the above named clubs have been to the promised land and one even won a trophy like the FA cup 

Yes, exactly & we have over taken them, for now....