Norwich City at home Carabao Cup match thread

[Port Said Red]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Nope, you’re reading it right.  Just on the pressing bit…we did press well, I.e get the ball back, we just don’t do it quite enough in the opposition final third.  We are tending to recover the ball in our own half (aimless punts forward by opponents under pressure), rather than pinching it high up.  If that makes sense. 

I didn't go last night, but I watched the highlights before reading most of this thread, and someone did a good job on them because we looked to play some nice sharp passing moves going forward, but our pressing especially in the early clips looks way off being effective. Odd players running in while others hang back, and then some half hearted attempts and getting to the third or fourth player to touch the ball. We will need to do that stuff far more effectively on Saturday lunch time.

[Charlie BCFC]

4 hours ago, mozo said:

I struggle with this a bit Dave.

Surely, it's his squad within the budget available to him? All managers have to compromise. 

I acknowledge it was a rebuild in terms of highly paid deadwood and a cultural issue.

But he also inherited Scott, Semenyo, Pring, O'Leary, Conway and the HPC.... not bad!

He's spent something like 10m on his players, some for fees, some for free, and they're his recruits, who play his version of 4-3-3, trained by his coaches.

Inheriting a mess, along with young talent, was always part of his remit, which he was aware of.

In my opinion, expectations are the variable here ie what do we expect him to achieve in this scenario?

I can’t agree with the highlighted personally:

Scott and Conway made their first squad in Pearson’s first match, he deserves huge praise in developing them into the players they are now.

Pring was injured when Pearson arrived and made his debut under him (may not have made a squad but not 100% sure) over the last two years he has massively improved under Pearson.

O’Leary backup to Bentley but got given chances, 21/22 he wasn’t ready but last season he showed huge signs of improvement.

Semenyo admittedly was making strides under Holden but what got him his prem move was his improvement with his end product undoubtedly 

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I didn't go last night, but I watched the highlights before reading most of this thread, and someone did a good job on them because we looked to play some nice sharp passing moves going forward, but our pressing especially in the early clips looks way off being effective. Odd players running in while others hang back, and then some half hearted attempts and getting to the third or fourth player to touch the ball. We will need to do that stuff far more effectively on Saturday lunch time.

We actually sorted out our press pretty well after some early issues.

Idah, their CF, was dropping really deep, and once Kal took responsibility to follow him all the way it enabled Sykes and Williams to support the front three in stopping Norwich playing out.  Naismith and Williams sometimes passed each others man on.

What was also evident was how we pressed them into their right half of the pitch onto their young RB Kellen Fisher (signed from Bromley and looks good).  Wells would get Duffy to pass to him, and then was the trigger for Mehmeti to close Fisher down, Roberts go tight to Springett and Williams onto Nunez or Gibbs.  Quite often we regained the ball from that pressing trigger, either earning a throw-in, or getting a challenge in in midfield, or picking up an aimless chip forward to nobody, because Idah had dropped 20 yards into his own half and Dickie picked up the loose ball forward.  Mehmeti gets a lot of stick, and although we didn’t always stop them, he is more switched onto his defensive responsibilities than Bell is.

Ball Recoveries:

quite a contrast to our right side.

Second half, more balanced but deeper.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, CrackingCheeseGromit said:

Heard an interview with the Brighton CEO recently about how they ran their club. He said that they buy players cheaply, with the intention of making them far better and selling for a huge profit, BUT, they recognise this will take at least two transfer windows and so they replace their better players two windows ahead of them leaving. It makes it a seamless transition.

I was hopeful we were following that approach. Okay financial limitations may play a role in terms of instant upgrades but some of that Scott money could have made a proper play for Bird (pre injury), Willock, able to slot in now yet with growth potential.

Perhaps one or two other positions too.

[mozo]

9 hours ago, Charlie BCFC said:

I can’t agree with the highlighted personally:

Scott and Conway made their first squad in Pearson’s first match, he deserves huge praise in developing them into the players they are now.

Pring was injured when Pearson arrived and made his debut under him (may not have made a squad but not 100% sure) over the last two years he has massively improved under Pearson.

O’Leary backup to Bentley but got given chances, 21/22 he wasn’t ready but last season he showed huge signs of improvement.

Semenyo admittedly was making strides under Holden but what got him his prem move was his improvement with his end product undoubtedly 

Yeah and I see where you and Davefevs are coming from and pondered it myself a few times.

Essentially it's impossible to know how much of the success of our academy graduates is owed to Nigel Pearson and his coaching staff, but some points to note:

1. It was part of Nige's remit to bring young players through, not necessarily his choice.

2. Each of those players had the potential in the first place. Our U21/23s had become a successful age group, which it hadn't been over the years prior.

3. If we credit NP for the development of Pring, we have to equally credit LJ for Bobby Reid, and other similar examples, however something tells me that there will be different outlook applied in those instances.

4. We can't sit here and be certain that Alex Scott has developed any better than he would have done under LJ/GJ or Millen. It's unquantifiable. What we can say is, Bristol City has never had a young player with so much potential, certainly in my lifetime.

Nige has undoubtedly played a key part in selecting the lads and developing the culture in which they have thrived. The discipline and rofessional standards that Nige garners will have definitely helped, and we hear that he's a friendly guy behind the scenes. But we can't be sure how big an impact he has had. We haven't heard any extraordinarily glowing reports from players yet, in the way that we did from Leicester players, particularly Schmeichel, but that's not to day they don't love him and massively value his influence.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, mozo said:

Yeah and I see where you and Davefevs are coming from and pondered it myself a few times.

Essentially it's impossible to know how much of the success of our academy graduates is owed to Nigel Pearson and his coaching staff, but some points to note:

1. It was part of Nige's remit to bring young players through, not necessarily his choice.

Possibly, or “between” SL and Nige the plan was developed that was achieve the objective to cut costs quicker?  

2. Each of those players had the potential in the first place. Our U21/23s had become a successful age group, which it hadn't been over the years prior.

Why do so many drop off then, either falling out of the game, or finding their way at lower levels, then. The amount brought through under Nige (and his team), who’ve become established is way in excess of the norm at Championship level.

3. If we credit NP for the development of Pring, we have to equally credit LJ for Bobby Reid, and other similar examples, however something tells me that there will be different outlook applied in those instances.

who isn’t giving any credit to LJ for Reid?  Why bring LJ into it?  I think most people give LJ (and others) credit for the positional change, even if it wasn’t his idea per se.

4. We can't sit here and be certain that Alex Scott has developed any better than he would have done under LJ/GJ or Millen. It's unquantifiable. What we can say is, Bristol City has never had a young player with so much potential, certainly in my lifetime.

I think you are underplaying the opportunity given to him to fulfil his talent.  It’s unquantifiable, but I think the evidence is there that Nige’s (and the team) approach to developing youngsters is getting more players through and getting them through quicker.  Giving them the opportunity to train with the first team, understand the levels required, understand the culture, learn from a PL winner, internationals, model pros, etc.

Southampton and Bournemouth didn’t think he was was worth keeping on and developing into a PL player.  So I think “Bristol City” has played a huge part.  He could still be in Guernsey playing Isthmian League!!!

As you mentioned LJ earlier…using your logic above, does LJ not deserve sny credit for Josh Brownhill’s development?

As per my earlier post, there is a combination of player ability and appetite / desire coupled with expertise within the club from Nige down to the Academy coaches in development of all players.  It’s not just the young’uns that have developed either.  Pring, Vyner, O’Leary, Weimann.  Players signed from outside, e.g Tanner

Nige has undoubtedly played a key part in selecting the lads and developing the culture in which they have thrived. The discipline and rofessional standards that Nige garners will have definitely helped, and we hear that he's a friendly guy behind the scenes. But we can't be sure how big an impact he has had. We haven't heard any extraordinarily glowing reports from players yet, in the way that we did from Leicester players, particularly Schmeichel, but that's not to day they don't love him and massively value his influence.

you don’t hear it at the club whilst they’re there or Nige is there, because they’d get the piss ripped out of them by their teammates for brown-nosing.

See above.

I do sense an undertone that you realty want to lessen any credit given to Nige and his team (inc the Academy coaches) and that it would’ve all happened naturally.  “Wasn’t Nige lucky to get such a good bunch”!!!

I couldn’t disagree more.

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

See above.

I do sense an undertone that you realty want to lessen any credit given to Nige and his team (inc the Academy coaches) and that it would’ve all happened naturally.  “Wasn’t Nige lucky to get such a good bunch”!!!

I couldn’t disagree more.

 No, I'm honestly trying to have an objective debate here because it's the kind of thing I ponder when I'm supposed be working! 

And I've tried to acknowledge that Nige has created the culture and the discipline and the gametime for those players, in which they've flourished, so I'm not trying to say he's done nowt.

I'm just trying to test the theory of how much credit we give Nige for the player development. 

I don't think we can expect the academy to consistently produce a strikeforce like Conway and Bell but those two were coming of age when Nige came to the club. We definitely can't expect an Alex Scott to turn up, just like Villa don't have another Grealish, and Brighton have a rare gem in Ferguson.

I'm not convinced that it's unfair of me to say that Nige arrived at a very bad time with the unmotivated, overpaid squad and a remit to support an epic overhaul, but also that he inherited a good crop of young players and a swanky new training facility? Maybe that's harsh, it's an interesting debate though (to a boring nerd fan )?

Like I've said elsewhere a few times, for SL to not congratulate NP on the overhaul is shocking as it deserves credit [card]!

 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, mozo said:

 No, I'm honestly trying to have an objective debate here because it's the kind of thing I ponder when I'm supposed be working! 

And I've tried to acknowledge that Nige has created the culture and the discipline and the gametime for those players, in which they've flourished, so I'm not trying to say he's done nowt.

I'm just trying to test the theory of how much credit we give Nige for the player development. 

I don't think we can expect the academy to consistently produce a strikeforce like Conway and Bell but those two were coming of age when Nige came to the club. We definitely can't expect an Alex Scott to turn up, just like Villa don't have another Grealish, and Brighton have a rare gem in Ferguson.

I'm not convinced that it's unfair of me to say that Nige arrived at a very bad time with the unmotivated, overpaid squad and a remit to support an epic overhaul, but also that he inherited a good crop of young players and a swanky new training facility? Maybe that's harsh, it's an interesting debate though (to a boring nerd fan )?

Like I've said elsewhere a few times, for SL to not congratulate NP on the overhaul is shocking as it deserves credit [card]!

 

Ta.

Lots imho…because it’s his cock on the block when they appear in the first team.  But when I say Nige I keep adding “(and his team)”…it’s a collective effort.

For me we’ve not had this type of success from our academy since Alan Dicks or maybe Terry Cooper (although those players weren’t having to play at tier 2).  You can draw your own conclusions.

But it’s easy to sit there with a young player and say “I don’t think they’re ready”, never give them the chance and therefore never find out.  There are senior players over the past 2 1/2 years who he could’ve picked over giving youngsters a chance.  He didn’t play safe, he gave them their head, he found out whether they were ready or needed more time.  Some he’s made a decision on that they’re not, moved them on, and removed the log jam behind them.

Its been too easy in the past to go out and recruit a solution to a problem, rather than try someone already here.  Previous managers (not wanting to drag this into the debate) only played sure things….Lloyd Kelly.

For all Benarous’s talent in the u18s he’d not even really shone in the u23s (pre the change back to u21s) and yet he was moved up to the first team training group initially, suddenly getting his debut as a sub (not a great one either) and then gets starts.  Could’ve easily picked Kasey Palmer!

Who ever thought Robbie Cundy would don a City shirt in the first team?  Nige has given him 10 Championship starts, using the likes of Timm Klose to guide him through.

Who sends Massengo out on loan, regardless of the contract situation when an injury to a midfielder means you might not only have to play Andy King, but Omar Taylor-Clarke alongside him…and pick up some wins at the same time.

Thats my reasons for giving him (the collective) credit.

Having written an article “one loan too many?” It’s my long standing belief that we didn’t get our youngsters through…until now.

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ta.

Lots imho…because it’s his cock on the block when they appear in the first team.  But when I say Nige I keep adding “(and his team)”…it’s a collective effort.

For me we’ve not had this type of success from our academy since Alan Dicks or maybe Terry Cooper (although those players weren’t having to play at tier 2).  You can draw your own conclusions.

But it’s easy to sit there with a young player and say “I don’t think they’re ready”, never give them the chance and therefore never find out.  There are senior players over the past 2 1/2 years who he could’ve picked over giving youngsters a chance.  He didn’t play safe, he gave them their head, he found out whether they were ready or needed more time.  Some he’s made a decision on that they’re not, moved them on, and removed the log jam behind them.

Its been too easy in the past to go out and recruit a solution to a problem, rather than try someone already here.  Previous managers (not wanting to drag this into the debate) only played sure things….Lloyd Kelly.

For all Benarous’s talent in the u18s he’d not even really shone in the u23s (pre the change back to u21s) and yet he was moved up to the first team training group initially, suddenly getting his debut as a sub (not a great one either) and then gets starts.  Could’ve easily picked Kasey Palmer!

Who ever thought Robbie Cundy would don a City shirt in the first team?  Nige has given him 10 Championship starts, using the likes of Timm Klose to guide him through.

Who sends Massengo out on loan, regardless of the contract situation when an injury to a midfielder means you might not only have to play Andy King, but Omar Taylor-Clarke alongside him…and pick up some wins at the same time.

Thats my reasons for giving him (the collective) credit.

Having written an article “one loan too many?” It’s my long standing belief that we didn’t get our youngsters through…until now.

All very reasonable. I think we might push and pull on a couple of issues and probably not get anywhere with it, but what we can agree on is just how enjoyable it is to see so many local and developed players in the first team squad. We had that spell in the early noughties too where a few came through at the same time and it gives the team an identity. Hope it continues.