Norwich City at home Carabao Cup match thread

[Nogbad the Bad]

18 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Not everything is solved by bringing in yet more new players.  How many players has Pearson brought in since January?  Cornick, Mehmeti, Dickie, Roberts, Knight, McCrorie, Gardner-Hickman.  Have I missed anyone?  The issue for me is that we are under-performing with the players we do have, which is an issue for the manager and coaches, not the owner.

Don't think so.

7 in since January, but almost twice as many out, so the squad clearly requires strengthening.

 

[italian dave]

9 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I am astonished that we have received £35 million in Scott and Semenyo this year and we won't adequately replace them. That is not how you progress a team in this League!

I don’t disagree with the point you’re making in your second sentence. (Although I’m no longer convinced that our current objective is to progress in the league so much as to tread water in 14th place - but that’s another issue).

But isn’t the point about the finances to do with the wage bill, not with transfer fees. I don’t have the detailed knowledge of these things that some on here have, and it’s probably over-simplifying it. But the point everyone at the club - including NP - keep referring to is the wage structure/cap. For all their value, I don’t imagine either Semenyo or Scott were on big wages. So what they’ve freed up in the wage bill doesn’t get you much more than a couple of the incoming players we already have.

I’m not trying to argue that’s the right approach. But maybe explains it. And it’s certainly why it’s not as straightforward as ‘we’ve had £35m incoming therefore we can afford to spend x% of that outgoing’ 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, TV Tom said:

But people are moaning that SL splashed the cash while the chuckle brothers were here (can't recall anyone complaining then) and now people are moaning now because he isn't splashing the cash, SL can't win, this is Pearson's team, he's brought in practically every one of this squad and some at decent prices, this is his players, his tactics, his team, his formation, he is solely to blame for such woeful performances.  

Just putting out a rhetoric that fans want us to splash the cash.  We don’t.  We just want a couple of sensible signings to boost the first team squad.  For Nige to ask for that is a million miles from previous spending…and it’s completely reasonable after the cost cutting he’s done and transfer revenue earned.

1 hour ago, Olé said:

I'm definitely in the latter view. I actually left wondering if Wells will have the legs for Saturday, he put a proper shift in without much supply - as poor as we were with the ball, we pressed high up more than we have all season and right to the very end and Wells rarely dropped off from his commitment to close down their defenders without the ball. 

 

I can only imagine some people didn’t watch the game.  Wells is looking sharp, worked his nuts off last night.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Calculus said:

Fair enough. Bell is a lot more useful than Mehmeti on the left, and I'm not even a fan if Bell's. 

I think Bell was below par again last night.  Most of our attacking situations first half involved Mehmeti.

We moaned about Mehmeti taking extra touches last season, how many times has Bell refused to cross in the last three games…far too many.  Last night he just got ushered off the ball when he came inside. 

[johnheadbcfc]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Bell was below par again last night.  Most of our attacking situations first half involved Mehmeti.

We moaned about Mehmeti taking extra touches last season, how many times has Bell refused to cross in the last three games…far too many.  Last night he just got ushered off the ball when he came inside. 

Bell for me hasn't shown that's hes better than mehmeti in the slightest, take away the academy aspect and there would be threads about his bad performances.

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think Bell was below par again last night.  Most of our attacking situations first half involved Mehmeti.

We moaned about Mehmeti taking extra touches last season, how many times has Bell refused to cross in the last three games…far too many.  Last night he just got ushered off the ball when he came inside. 

I was hoping that pre-season would sort that out, but from what I've seen so far he still seems a little lightweight. His decision making is not good either so far, he's a bit off from last season imo. I could say the same for a couple of others in terms of decision making, notably Tanner and O'Leary.

Early days and I'm not too bothered about last night against a team who will be challenging near the top, but we do need a good performance against Swansea who are looking for their first win.

[mozo]

34 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Don't think so.

7 in since January, but almost twice as many out, so the squad clearly requires strengthening.

 

The messaging from the club has been that the squad is strong.

Tinnion has championed "two quality players for each position".

Nige has confirmed that "we're happy with the squad that we've got."

Your response to me might be "well, what do you expect them to say?!" 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

I’m sure this is unpopular view, particularly with the current wave of criticism aimed at Lansdown, but Pearson has had, what, three years now?  That’s a long time in football management terms these days.  This is his squad, when is he going to get the best out of it?  All I see at the moment is decent players underperforming, as individuals and as a unit, and I find it hard to pin that on the owner.  

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, Cidre Monita said:

So you are happy with that? The likes of Luton, Brentford et al in the Prem and that sleepy little retirement home Bournemouth signing our best young players. I was saying to my mate that I actually prefer the old days in the early 80’s when Terry Cooper was in charge and we didn’t have a pot to p*** in. Who would have thought back then we still wouldn’t have made the promised land some 40 years later even with the involvement of a local billionaire. The things history teaches us, eh? 

'So you are happy with that?' Ah, that's a different point. No, I'm a little frustrated, but I have been for many many months of the 52 years I've been a supporter.

It was just that you brought up the historical context so I thought you might, on the off chance, like to see some facts to consider to go along with your opinion. I was merely pointing out that the SL's years compare extremely favourably with what we've achieved in our history. 

(Btw, my post should have read 'second most successful period...in over a hundred years' btw.' Apologies. It was a typo.

 

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I’m sure this is unpopular view, particularly with the current wave of criticism aimed at Lansdown, but Pearson has had, what, three years now?  That’s a long time in football management terms these days.  This is his squad, when is he going to get the best out of it?  All I see at the moment is decent players underperforming, as individuals and as a unit, and I find it hard to pin that on the owner.  

I personally think it's his squad, his coaching set up and his tactics. 

If he sets an expectation that we have the quality to push for top 6 then we have to judge him on that.

But it's too early to judge that after just a few games.

So far most performances have been disappointing, and in all games the forward play has been concerning.

Let's get the first block of ten out to way and see how it's going.

[Nogbad the Bad]

11 minutes ago, mozo said:

I personally think it's his squad, his coaching set up and his tactics. 

If he sets an expectation that we have the quality to push for top 6 then we have to judge him on that.

 

Didn't SL say that his expectation was a push for top 6 this season? If so Nige could hardly publicly say he disagreed, because however unlikely, it couldn't be ruled out.

Presume you're quoting NP from pre season when his optimism to push for the top 6 would be based on his squad at the time and envisaging Scott, Conway and McCrorie as regular starters. 

With a small squad losing 3 such key players collectively right at the start of the season obviously makes a big difference, most fans know and accept that, and expectations will be tempered until those at the top are seen to be sharing NP's ambition by supporting him financially rather than apparently being content to stagnate in this division and frustrate both the manager and the fans.

It almost feels by SL's inaction to back the manager that he is writing off this season already and is completely unbothered about having a discontented manager and fanbase and the prospect of dwindling, restless crowds. Very odd imo.

 

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Didn't SL say that his expectation was a push for top 6 this season? If so Nige could hardly publicly say he disagreed, because however unlikely, it couldn't be ruled out.

Presume you're quoting NP from pre season when his optimism to push for the top 6 would be based on his squad at the time and envisaging Scott, Conway and McCrorie as regular starters. 

With a small squad losing 3 such key players collectively right at the start of the season obviously makes a big difference, most fans know and accept that, and expectations will be tempered until those at the top are seen to be sharing NP's ambition by supporting him financially rather than apparently being content to stagnate in this division and frustrate both the manager and the fans.

It almost feels by SL's inaction to back the manager that he is writing off this season already and is completely unbothered about having a discontented manager and fanbase and the prospect of dwindling, restless crowds. Very odd imo.

 

I think if Pearson feels he's not being adequately backed financially and that the targets are unachievable it won't be long before he starts dropping hints to that effect.

I don't see him as someone to tow the company line if he doesn't like it.

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

I’m sure this is unpopular view, particularly with the current wave of criticism aimed at Lansdown, but Pearson has had, what, three years now?  That’s a long time in football management terms these days.  This is his squad, when is he going to get the best out of it?  All I see at the moment is decent players underperforming, as individuals and as a unit, and I find it hard to pin that on the owner.  

Well said 

[stephenkibby.]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just putting out a rhetoric that fans want us to splash the cash.  We don’t.  We just want a couple of sensible signings to boost the first team squad.  For Nige to ask for that is a million miles from previous spending…and it’s completely reasonable after the cost cutting he’s done and transfer revenue earned.

I can only imagine some people didn’t watch the game.  Wells is looking sharp, worked his nuts off last night.

Wells had a good game last night he's a real team player.

Big worry for me is Tanner, he looks devoid of confidence never steams forward with the ball to make his opponent commit to making a challenge    just reaches the half way line stops and goes backwards.

He's trying so hard not to make a mistake it has the opposite affect.

[Davefevs]

When did a few days over 2 1/2 years become 3 years?

”this is his squad” - yes it is, but it’s not his squad of choice, it’s his squad of compromise and constraint, because he was left with a right old mess that couldn’t be rectified immediately.  It takes 2-3years to get players out of a club, because of the contract dished out previously.

This really is season one, a semi-decent squad with potential to make better through sound player sales (Semenyo done early) and recruitment, whilst bringing on the academy.

Someone reneged on the deal!

[RedM]

5 hours ago, Calculus said:

Was sat in the middle of the Lansdown yesterday and was watching Nige's reactions, particularly about Mehmeti. Not happy would be the understatement of the year. Was very surprised when Mehmeti came out for the second half. Sam Bell is twice the player on the left. 

I noticed this too, and I think he had a right go at Wells too with a few explitives thrown in, he wasn't happy. 

I don't think it's lack of effort overall, we are just well short of quality. We miss the driving spark of Conway, and maybe the guidance of Weimann for example, but they are not available and we have to make do with what we have.

We have experience out there but the experienced players are failing to impact and affect the game like they should be able to. James. King, Naismith, Cornick, Wells,O'leary etc have masses of games between them, so how is it that Yeboah and to a lesser extent Bell are the only ones who look like unlocking games like this. 

Oxford aside we are still in single figures for shots on target combined aren't we. Now that's a stat that concerns me. but I am also equally concerned that Pearson can't seem to get more out of this squad, his squad, too.

[Davefevs]

@RedM

This is a summary of City vs all the Championship.  League Only - 4 games only.  Small sample.

The red blob is City, the other blobs are the other teams.  The thin grey vertical line (shaded out) is the average of all 24 clubs.

The further to the right is better.  For defending I reversed the axes, so further right is still better.

Heres Norwich.

The big question is how do we improve “us”.  We do need to improve.

@Spike wrote on another thread re some “flaws” in our attacking play.  I agree with some bits.

 

[italian dave]

5 hours ago, Cidre Monita said:

So you are happy with that? The likes of Luton, Brentford et al in the Prem and that sleepy little retirement home Bournemouth signing our best young players. I was saying to my mate that I actually prefer the old days in the early 80’s when Terry Cooper was in charge and we didn’t have a pot to p*** in. Who would have thought back then we still wouldn’t have made the promised land some 40 years later even with the involvement of a local billionaire. The things history teaches us, eh? 

I don't think anyone has come anywhere near suggesting they are happy with that. The point was simply that your assertion that "SL is the one constant in the historical and ongoing underachievement of our club" doesn't really stand up. And that, in the context of the historical levels of achievement (or otherwise) of our club, SL's tenure is actually one of the more successful.

You've made the point yourself that we've had spells of far greater underachievement - in the old 4th Division for example. SL wasn't involved then.

I enjoyed the days of Terry Cooper too - I look back very fondly on them. But I'm not sure what point you're making. Those weren't times of 'achievement' - beyond simply surviving. And I wouldn't want to be watching and visiting the likes of Chester and Rochdale every season for long! I assume you don't want SL to take us back there 

Someone made the point elsewhere on here recently that the common factor in the two periods of greatest achievement (1970s and the past decade) was stability of ownership. I'm not for a moment uncritical of some of the things SL has done. And one of then is that the stability of ownership hasn't been accompanied by a consistency of strategy. But at the same time I don't think you can dismiss the many pluses of his ownership either. And a change would be not only a break in that stability but also a leap into the dark - sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. 

[BCFC Rich]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@RedM

This is a summary of City vs all the Championship.  League Only - 4 games only.  Small sample.

The red blob is City, the other blobs are the other teams.  The thin grey vertical line (shaded out) is the average of all 24 clubs.

The further to the right is better.  For defending I reversed the axes, so further right is still better.

Heres Norwich.

The big question is how do we improve “us”.  We do need to improve.

@Spike wrote on another thread re some “flaws” in our attacking play.  I agree with some bits.

 

I'm probably totally misreading that, but to me, it looks like it's our pressing and passing that are the main issues (poor passing was very evident against Birmingham). Does that suggest in the passing were to click we would see big improvements? 

It also show Norwich are pretty much the best attacking side so far this season. Again I'm probably reading it wrong.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by BCFC Rich

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, BCFC Rich said:

I'm probably totally misreading that, but to me, it looks like it's our pressing and passing that are the main issues (poor passing was very evident against Birmingham). Does that suggest in the passing were to click we would see big improvements? 

It also show Norwich are pretty much the best attacking side so far this season. Again I'm probably reading it wrong.

 

Nope, you’re reading it right.  Just on the pressing bit…we did press well, I.e get the ball back, we just don’t do it quite enough in the opposition final third.  We are tending to recover the ball in our own half (aimless punts forward by opponents under pressure), rather than pinching it high up.  If that makes sense. 

[Superjack]

7 hours ago, Top Robin said:

It was about 10 games when I knew that he was going to stabilise us but not get us promoted. 

Unfortunately even the stability looks dodgy now.

And how could you know that?

It was about 10 games when you 'thought' that. And given your negative mind, I am surprised that it took that long.

[mozo]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

When did a few days over 2 1/2 years become 3 years?

”this is his squad” - yes it is, but it’s not his squad of choice, it’s his squad of compromise and constraint, because he was left with a right old mess that couldn’t be rectified immediately.  It takes 2-3years to get players out of a club, because of the contract dished out previously.

This really is season one, a semi-decent squad with potential to make better through sound player sales (Semenyo done early) and recruitment, whilst bringing on the academy.

Someone reneged on the deal!

I struggle with this a bit Dave.

Surely, it's his squad within the budget available to him? All managers have to compromise. 

I acknowledge it was a rebuild in terms of highly paid deadwood and a cultural issue.

But he also inherited Scott, Semenyo, Pring, O'Leary, Conway and the HPC.... not bad!

He's spent something like 10m on his players, some for fees, some for free, and they're his recruits, who play his version of 4-3-3, trained by his coaches.

Inheriting a mess, along with young talent, was always part of his remit, which he was aware of.

In my opinion, expectations are the variable here ie what do we expect him to achieve in this scenario?

Edited August 30, 2023 by mozo

[Top Robin]

2 hours ago, Superjack said:

And how could you know that?

It was about 10 games when you 'thought' that. And given your negative mind, I am surprised that it took that long.

For once be honest and admit that you're a little disappointed with Nige's poor performances after 3 years and are a bit worried we may be in a relegation battle.

[Superjack]

2 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

For once be honest and admit that you're a little disappointed with Nige's poor performances after 3 years and are a bit worried we may be in a relegation battle.

Nah. Don't have to. 

I believe that he has done the best possible job so far under extremely difficult circumstances. 

If we end up in a relegation battle, then that responsibility will lie at a higher door than the manager's office.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Superjack

[Wellspokenman]

11 hours ago, Gert Mare said:

A family member went last night and his thoughts were that we seemed to lack any urgency, continued to surrender possession by opting to launching long balls, thought that Cornick didn’t even look like a footballer and was stealing a wage, said that Mehmeti kept hold of the ball for too long and should have passed to Wells, Wells just ‘strolled about, Bell did a lot of running without impacting the game, we chose to pass it around the back and play it back to Max when we were 1-0 down with time running out instead of trying to get back into the game and was very impressed with Yeboah and said that if the rest of the team had played with the same intent as Yeboah it could have been a much better game. Overall he said it was rubbish and boring.

I was there and ….spot….on…. Sir

[Wellspokenman]

11 hours ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Other than Yeboah's cameo, I thought Wells worked extremely hard - ran his socks off - for little return.

Our attacks were very easy to defend against - very one dimensional, and ineffective.

Wells always runs for little return….wonder why

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

I struggle with this a bit Dave.

Surely, it's his squad within the budget available to him? All managers have to compromise.

not to the extent Nige has had to.  There’s compromise and there’s compromise.  Without turning this into another LJ thread, there’s selling Webster and making c£16m on the deal and then spending £26m on transfer fees, raising the wage bill by £3m in the process…and there’s cutting the wage bill by net £4m and getting £25m in for Scott and not being able re-invest any of it.  It’s chalk and cheese.  You can argue the 4 summer signings were investing the money, in which case we have loads left over from Semenyo.

I acknowledge it was a rebuild in terms of highly paid deadwood and a cultural issue.

That’s it, he’s had to knock it down and rebuild it.  It cost to knock it down, and that both slowed the rebuild and meant less money for it.  Ideally when he took over he must’ve seen some of the pros and thought they’re not a bad bunch…onky to find out they were on easy street and being overpaid for it.  Therefore his squad building has been “compromised”.  It wasn’t clear the decks and replace for the same cost of the outgoings, it was clear the decks and find bargains to replace them with.

That’s what I mean by it.

But he also inherited Scott, Semenyo, Pring, O'Leary, Conway and the HPC.... not bad!

Inherited?  Interesting word, I don’t disagree with it, but I think that massively underplays the development of them by him and the staff, the opportunity and exposure given and the rounding of these players into not just squad fillers, but important first team players…with value.  Fair play to the players too.

He's spent something like 10m on his players, some for fees, some for free, and they're his recruits, who play his version of 4-3-3, trained by his coaches.

whilst saving the club £35m in costs, and earning the club £35m in transfers.  That’s a £70m swing (inc the amortised costs of the new players)

Inheriting a mess, along with young talent, was always part of his remit, which he was aware of.

but that doesn’t entitle him to success, nor even staying in this division.  Aware of yes, hence why he said 3 years / seasons to make us competitive when he signed his 3 year contract.  We are only 2 years into it.

In my opinion, expectations are the variable here ie what do we expect him to achieve in this scenario?

first season expectations - don’t go down was the major objective, to not be involved in a scrap was success.

second season expectation - avoid a scrap (achieved), push mid-table (almost achieved)

This season expectations- push top half, and even better push top 10 / play off mix

Until the drawbridge was pulled up after the Scott sale.

Happy if you don’t agree, that each and everyone’s prerogative.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Wellspokenman said:

Wells always runs for little return….wonder why

So he did work hard then?

[mozo]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Happy if you don’t agree, that each and everyone’s prerogative.

Every manager walks into mess of some sort by virtue of the fact that their predecessor got fired due to underperforming players. It was a big overhaul. Also happy to respectfully look at this from a different angle 

[Shelton’s Love Gravy]

11 hours ago, MelksRed said:

Not quite sure why my post is showing twice.....

I think you should post it one more time, just for luck (it was a very good post ).