Recruitment : Nige v LJ

[Bristol Oil Services]

... or, Nige's recruitment team v LJ's. Did LJ unearth or bring in more lucrative talent than Nige has thus far?

LJ was "backed" way more than Nige, this much we know, but did Lee generate more funds himself for himself with for example Brownhill and Adam Webster? He also might be credited with turning Bobby Reid from an ok attacking midfielder (who can't shoot or score from outside the box) into a £10 mill fox-in-the-six-yard-box?

Yes, yes, he brought in loads of shite, we know this too, we've been over that, it was bus loads of 'em, but has Nige's recruitment been a bit underwhelming? A bit? From the point of view of generating his own transfer kitty with some buying low, selling high? 

Can Nige do it (whatever SL wants from him) without unearthing another Jamie Vardy? Or a gem or two of his own recruitment network? It doesn't look at this point (what might happen in future, I cannot say) that Tanner, Sykes, Cornick etc will be sold on for huge sums to give him the chance to strengthen again.

LJ was lucky with Flint, Bryan, Kodjia, Lloyd, maybe Reid; Nige has been fortunate with Alex Scott, Antoine and maybe Tommy Conway. As far as inherited talent to sell. Looks like LJ was a bit luckier, this far (although there was more dosh sloshing around back in his time in the game).

But during his second spell at Leicester, Nige signed Vardy in his first year (joined in November, Vardy signed the following summer). They were promoted 2 years after this.

 

Without this sort of inspired recruitment (ok, not a future England forward, but someone somewhere between that and Sykes/Cornick level), has he got a chance here? Just asking, for a friend  ....

 

 

[cidercity1987]

10 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

... or, Nige's recruitment team v LJ's. Did LJ unearth or bring in more lucrative talent than Nige has thus far?

LJ was "backed" way more than Nige, this much we know, but did Lee generate more funds himself for himself with for example Brownhill and Adam Webster? He also might be credited with turning Bobby Reid from an ok attacking midfielder (who can't shoot or score from outside the box) into a £10 mill fox-in-the-six-yard-box?

Yes, yes, he brought in loads of shite, we know this too, we've been over that, it was bus loads of 'em, but has Nige's recruitment been a bit underwhelming? A bit? From the point of view of generating his own transfer kitty with some buying low, selling high? 

Can Nige do it (whatever SL wants from him) without unearthing another Jamie Vardy? Or a gem or two of his own recruitment network? It doesn't look at this point (what might happen in future, I cannot say) that Tanner, Sykes, Cornick etc will be sold on for huge sums to give him the chance to strengthen again.

LJ was lucky with Flint, Bryan, Kodjia, Lloyd, maybe Reid; Nige has been fortunate with Alex Scott, Antoine and maybe Tommy Conway. As far as inherited talent to sell. Looks like LJ was a bit luckier, this far (although there was more dosh sloshing around back in his time in the game).

But during his second spell at Leicester, Nige signed Vardy in his first year (joined in November, Vardy signed the following summer). They were promoted 2 years after this.

 

Without this sort of inspired recruitment (ok, not a future England forward, but someone somewhere between that and Sykes/Cornick level), has he got a chance here? Just asking, for a friend  ....

 

 

LJ was buying to develop and sell, with a much bigger budget to afford Webster for example. NP has been shopping in bargain basement trying to mound a team, whilst developing Scott and no doubt Conway, Bell into massive money sales.

Of NP's purchases, Sykes and Knight have the potential to also go for significant fees in future, the jury is out on Mehmeti, he could be a waste of a million or a £10m player. Other purchases have been for the here and now, Naismith/Cornick etc

 

[RedRoss]

18 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Nige's recruitment been a bit underwhelming? A bit? From the point of view of generating his own transfer kitty with some buying low, selling high? 

I agree all the good bits of business are usually dismissed on here i.e Webster, Brownhill and LJ did turn Bobby from a player that we would sold for £200k not long before changing his position.

However the biggest difference is when has Nige had the chance to flip a player?.. He's had to use them on the pitch! Plus Alex Scott is arguably the best young player we've ever had and that's credit to Nigel. I'd also argue Tanner, Sykes, Atkinson, Knight will all be worth more than we paid. Plus the development of Bell, Conway and early days Yeboah will be worth a fair whack if sold.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Nige is going to have to sell Conway or Bell or Pring. Maybe Knight or Atkinson. Causing OTIB meltdown in the process. 

If someone can fix Ayman's knee, he'll surely be worth a bob or two in the future. 

And given Norwich and West Brom were supposedly in for him, maybe McCrorie has something about him and we could see a profit through trading him. 

Short term, if we needed to buy in Jamuary? Vyner's value will only depreciate from here. 

Mind you, Guernsey no longer believes "football can spend what football earns" - it's all about nest eggs now. So Pearson will probably be given very little when we flog the next piece of family silverware.   

Edited September 7, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Numero Uno]

26 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

... or, Nige's recruitment team v LJ's. Did LJ unearth or bring in more lucrative talent than Nige has thus far?

LJ was "backed" way more than Nige, this much we know, but did Lee generate more funds himself for himself with for example Brownhill and Adam Webster? He also might be credited with turning Bobby Reid from an ok attacking midfielder (who can't shoot or score from outside the box) into a £10 mill fox-in-the-six-yard-box?

Yes, yes, he brought in loads of shite, we know this too, we've been over that, it was bus loads of 'em, but has Nige's recruitment been a bit underwhelming? A bit? From the point of view of generating his own transfer kitty with some buying low, selling high? 

Can Nige do it (whatever SL wants from him) without unearthing another Jamie Vardy? Or a gem or two of his own recruitment network? It doesn't look at this point (what might happen in future, I cannot say) that Tanner, Sykes, Cornick etc will be sold on for huge sums to give him the chance to strengthen again.

LJ was lucky with Flint, Bryan, Kodjia, Lloyd, maybe Reid; Nige has been fortunate with Alex Scott, Antoine and maybe Tommy Conway. As far as inherited talent to sell. Looks like LJ was a bit luckier, this far (although there was more dosh sloshing around back in his time in the game).

But during his second spell at Leicester, Nige signed Vardy in his first year (joined in November, Vardy signed the following summer). They were promoted 2 years after this.

 

Without this sort of inspired recruitment (ok, not a future England forward, but someone somewhere between that and Sykes/Cornick level), has he got a chance here? Just asking, for a friend  ....

 

 

Are you actually joking about Sykes?

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Are you actually joking about Sykes?

I think you might have misread the OP.

Unless you think Sykes is the next Beckham?

[Jeez]

Pointless exercise really as their respective budgets & clubs financial positions at the time are incomparable 

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think you might have misread the OP.

Unless you think Sykes is the next Beckham?

Possibly. What I do know is Sykes is worth far more now than what we paid for him. Comparing him with Cornick is not a comparison. Cornick is here to do a job, we won’t turn a profit on him. If Beckham is the argument how many “Beckham’s” have Bristol City ever unearthed full stop let alone LJ or NP?

The key to unearthing value in young lads is identifying them as potential first team standard then playing them whereas a 19 year old in League 2 who has all the hallmarks of being Beckham will get snapped up by bigger clubs than us.

[Henry]

Nigel hasn’t got a recruitment team. The club has.

I doubt Nigel would want a young analyst playing as Head of recruitment/Chief scout.

[Fordy62]

One was allowed to get us into the financial mess the other is having to sort out.

As with every Bristol City manager when compared with Lee Johnson, it isn’t really a level playing field on which to compare. 

[cider hoss rules]

I think the main difference, is we seem to have gone away from the 'end of career' last big move on top dollar signings.

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

19 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Possibly. What I do know is Sykes is worth far more now than what we paid for him. Comparing him with Cornick is not a comparison. Cornick is here to do a job, we won’t turn a profit on him. If Beckham is the argument how many “Beckham’s” have Bristol City ever unearthed full stop let alone LJ or NP?

The key to unearthing value in young lads is identifying them as potential first team standard then playing them whereas a 19 year old in League 2 who has all the hallmarks of being Beckham will get snapped up by bigger clubs than us.

Forget Beckham. I get where you're coming from now. 

And you have a higher opinion of Sykes than I, or the OP I suspect. 

We'll get value from him - he was a free transfer! But I don't believe someone higher up the food chain will pay us money for him. I think he'll stick around here for a few years, then go back the way he came. So, in that sense, he is comparable to Cornick (except, unbelievably, we paid money for the latter).

Edited September 7, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[glynriley]

39 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think you might have misread the OP.

Unless you think Sykes is the next Beckham?

The next George Best...

"Sykes-y Sykes-y, they call him the Belfast boy..."

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

5 minutes ago, glynriley said:

The next George Best...

"Sykes-y Sykes-y, they call him the Belfast boy..."

 

That would be handy, Glyn. Very handy - as a footballer not a drinker, mind!

Edited September 7, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[tin]

50 minutes ago, Jeez said:

Pointless exercise really as their respective budgets & clubs financial positions at the time are incomparable 

Beat me to it. LJ was shopping at M&S, Nige is shopping at Aldi. And LJ was able to tap in to the European market pre-Brexit, so a comparison is pointless. 

[mozo]

46 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

One was allowed to get us into the financial mess the other is having to sort out.

As with every Bristol City manager when compared with Lee Johnson, it isn’t really a level playing field on which to compare. 

Worth clarifying that LJ didn't get us into the financial mess. The accounts weren't his responsibility. The owners and CEO take the flak for that.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 minute ago, tin said:

Beat me to it. LJ was shopping at M&S, Nige is shopping at Aldi. And LJ was able to tap in to the European market pre-Brexit, so a comparison is pointless. 

And the wider footballing landscape pre-covid was completely different. 

[mozo]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

And the wider footballing landscape pre-covid was completely different. 

Exactly. Shopping in M&S wasn't such a big deal at that point!

[Davefevs]

 

You will know my view already!!!

I’m just gonna talk about Nige’s recruitment.  It’s been restrictive.  The squad he has now isn’t what it would’ve been if he’d been starting in a better position.  It’s still compromised by the financial situation, and much as I hoped it wasn’t this summer, it’s been clarified that it is…in some respects it feels more so!

Overall I think it is improving / better than what it has been.  It’s been far from world-class…but I sense the clarity around what he wants and why he wants a player-type (not a player per se) is starting to be met in the execution by the Recruitment Team.

Without putting rose-tinted specs on this summer’s five:

• Knight
• McCrorie
• Dickie
• Roberts
• Gardner-Hickman

All look sound on paper, we can see where and why they were signed.  In McCrorie’s case we’ve yet to see it, but from watching him at Aberdeen it’s a RB who can drive on in the opposition half.

In the past I think we’ve signed some decent players on paper, but I didn’t know how they’d fit in, e.g. Wells.  And it appeared neither did the manager!!

The outlay for these 5 is not very big either (less when put in the context of Alex Scott going), showing we can identify places to exploit the market, whether that be because of the situation at another club, or own ability to move early.  That’s a good place / process to be in itself.

I think it is easy to pick out one signing from one regime and put them against another from another regime and spin the argument in your favour, and I’ve done that countless times already.

Here’s to the upward trend imho.

[1960maaan]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

You will know my view already!!!

I’m just gonna talk about Nige’s recruitment.  It’s been restrictive.  The squad he has now isn’t what it would’ve been if he’d been starting in a better position.  It’s still compromised by the financial situation, and much as I hoped it wasn’t this summer, it’s been clarified that it is…in some respects it feels more so!

Overall I think it is improving / better than what it has been.  It’s been far from world-class…but I sense the clarity around what he wants and why he wants a player-type (not a player per se) is starting to be met in the execution by the Recruitment Team.

Without putting rose-tinted specs on this summer’s five:

• Knight
• McCrorie
• Dickie
• Roberts
• Gardner-Hickman

All look sound on paper, we can see where and why they were signed.  In McCrorie’s case we’ve yet to see it, but from watching him at Aberdeen it’s a RB who can drive on in the opposition half.

In the past I think we’ve signed some decent players on paper, but I didn’t know how they’d fit in, e.g. Wells.  And it appeared neither did the manager!!

The outlay for these 5 is not very big either (less when put in the context of Alex Scott going), showing we can identify places to exploit the market, whether that be because of the situation at another club, or own ability to move early.  That’s a good place / process to be in itself.

I think it is easy to pick out one signing from one regime and put them against another from another regime and spin the argument in your favour, and I’ve done that countless times already.

Here’s to the upward trend imho.

For the first time since Cotts , there seems some joined up thinking and even a plan to the recruitment. Even if you don't think the player is all that great, in my case Cornick, I can absolutely see why we bought him . 
Targeting players to fit into a team , with an idea how we are going to play is quite new and novel , in that respect it is definitely an upward trend .

[Fordy62]

42 minutes ago, mozo said:

Worth clarifying that LJ didn't get us into the financial mess. The accounts weren't his responsibility. The owners and CEO take the flak for that.

Agreed. Hence why I went with “allowed to” - my point was that he’s been looked upon far more favourably than any manager ever - almost like a teacher’s pet. 

You either hold the opinion that this was due to nepotism, or you’re wrong.

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Forget Beckham. I get where you're coming from now. 

And you have a higher opinion of Sykes than I, or the OP I suspect. 

We'll get value from him - he was a free transfer! But I don't believe someone higher up the food chain will pay us money for him. I think he'll stick around here for a few years, then go back the way he came. So, in that sense, he is comparable to Cornick (except, unbelievably, we paid money for the latter).

I do like Sykes, I must admit and if he carries on contributing like he did on Saturday then people might well be taking a look.

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, tin said:

Beat me to it. LJ was shopping at M&S, Nige is shopping at Aldi. And LJ was able to tap in to the European market pre-Brexit, so a comparison is pointless. 

But his two major recruitment successes were from the Championship, one of them not an established player. Nige does buy from this level as well as having to dip into L1 and 2. And perhaps his greatest "find" was from non-league, albeit not a cheap one.

Nige has been here 2.5 years and so far, most of the "interest" - unless I'm missing someone - has been in players he has not brought here. There's lots of "ifs" and "mights" about Sykes, Knight, but ....

So, again, to have a chance here, does he need to unearth a gem, a Josh Brownhill, himself? Has the well run dry?

[Merrick's Marvels]

23 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I do like Sykes, I must admit and if he carries on contributing like he did on Saturday then people might well be taking a look.

Yes, I'm not saying he's rubbish by any means - good engine and workrate, can be a bit narky which is good if channelled the right way, i.e. don't get sent off! Got a goal or two in him - big plus. Good fitness record.

His assists against Hull and Swansea were excellent - absolute top drawer zingers - but he needs to be more consistent with this - next week he's as likely to hit the first defender I feel.

On a broader point, after the Birmingham game I think they were all told to stop fannying around in wide areas and get the ball into the box as soon as they get the chance - then it's up to others to be in the right place for the finish.

That's certainly paid dividends in the last couple of games.  

Edited September 7, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Shauntaylor85]

Johnson shouldn’t be mentioned in same breath as Nige. Nige has achieved far more in general in football overall, both as player and manager. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

All managers bring in players they've had previously,

LJ: Marley Watkins, Ryan Kent, Josh Brownhill 

Nige: Andy King, Danny Simpson, Matty James.

 

I might be missing/forgetting or getting some wrong there. Matty James has been a plus on the field but not going to bring in any funds. Only one of those above fits that criteria. 

 

I suppose I'm flailing around trying to imagine what SL might be thinking, I might be over-thinking it. Or just miles off.

Didn't one of the Leicester chaps say Nige isn't the same without Shakespeare and Walsh?

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

But his two major recruitment successes were from the Championship, one of them not an established player. Nige does buy from this level as well as having to dip into L1 and 2. And perhaps his greatest "find" was from non-league, albeit not a cheap one.

Nige has been here 2.5 years and so far, most of the "interest" - unless I'm missing someone - has been in players he has not brought here. There's lots of "ifs" and "mights" about Sykes, Knight, but ....

So, again, to have a chance here, does he need to unearth a gem, a Josh Brownhill, himself? Has the well run dry?

Can you give me a clue as what players you are referring to above, please?  I can’t make them out from your descriptions.  Ta.

[ExiledAjax]

@Bristol Oil Services when you ask "does he [Pearson] have a chance here?" do you mean a) a chance at promotion or b) a chance at a new contract?

I can't quite get that clear from your posts.

But, I'll make some assumptions.

Does he need to unearth a gem to have a chance at getting us promoted (let's assume either this season or next assuming a new contract) - in my opinion yes. He's clearly not going to get funds to sign a 26 year-old ready made player capable of elevating a mid table squad into the top 6.

So, on the basis that a) I don't think this squad in this division is capable of a top 6 finish and b) he is only going to get funds for young or lower division players, yes he does need to find someone magic. Maybe not a Vardy, but someone pretty special.

If it's contracts you mean, then no. As he's now only got one window before his time is up, and after that window there will only be a dozen or so league games left, there's not much time for him to unearth the diamond in the rough and to then cut and shine that diamond into the proof required to cause Steve to present a new contract to him.

So in answer to your question: yes, but also no.

Edited September 7, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Merrick's Marvels]

54 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

So, again, to have a chance here, does he need to unearth a gem, a Josh Brownhill, himself? Has the well run dry?

Yes. Although the chances of him doing that are - what? Slim, I'd say. Finding a player as good as Vardy for nothing seems like a once-in-a-career thing to me.

The well hasn't run dry but, unless Guernsey changes his tune again and loosens the purse strings, our good young uns will continue to be flogged off, not only that, but most of the proceeds will now end up in this "nest egg" rather than with the manager and the little that he is given will only cover the cost of L1 or 2 types or older free agents. 

So that's what Nige has to do - square that circle! And one other thing - work out how to win at home. 

I wouldn't put it past him to square the circle (such is the improvement in our scouting/recruitment) but I do worry he's not clever enough to get us winning at home - winning well, convincingly and consistently. Much as I like him, and for all his qualities - qualities we've needed for a very long time - that thought does nag away at me.   

Edited September 7, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

So, again, to have a chance here, does he need to unearth a gem, a Josh Brownhill, himself? Has the well run dry?

Why such an emphasis on finding a “gem” and that being the measure of success?  What qualifies as a gem?

As @cidercity1987 states, the models are completely different, the dynamics of the markets are completely different.