Recruitment : Nige v LJ

[Davefevs]

41 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I’d be pretty certain we don’t sign players without putting video packages etc of them infront Nigel, Tins would be there with Ghillespy to go through the ones we like but don’t get to Nigel. There surely would he some kind of sign off from Nigel without him needing to go through too much 

Correct…although it does appear Nige will go and watch players too, he’s not completely “hands-off” as perhaps suggested.  More a final look than scouting per se.

[ashton_fan]

14 hours ago, mozo said:

Worth clarifying that LJ didn't get us into the financial mess. The accounts weren't his responsibility. The owners and CEO take the flak for that.

And COVID which really screwed up the accounts

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Haikin a full-on dud?  On what basis are you making that call?  Imho, he was a cheap as **** cover on a 5 month deal to allow us to save money on getting rid of Bentley and allow Bajic to get some minutes back home.

I suppose never playing a minute is better than Marinovic playing and failing. But is "signing him so that Bajic could go on loan" a glowing report card? I'm not sure. I understand that not every player has to be a hall of fame legend, but Haikin wasn't a success.

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If you’re starting to speculate that some might fade away, and hit rate drop, then you should speculate that some might pick-up too and hit rate improve.

I said that the guys I named are at a crossroads and could go either way. They could all trend upwards in their City career. Very possible.

I also said that even a 50% hit rate isn't bad. It's not bad.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

I suppose never playing a minute is better than Marinovic playing and failing. But is "signing him so that Bajic could go on loan" a glowing report card? I'm not sure. I understand that not every player has to be a hall of fame legend, but Haikin wasn't a success.

But that’s the context of signing Haikin.

1. Primary - To allow Bentley, who was no longer no1 to move on before his contract ended, thus removing his high wages / avoid wasting his high wages for 5 more months plus get a small fee in January rather than nothing in July

2. Secondary - To have experienced cover for O’Leary whilst Bajic got first team mins at Valenciennes

If people want to judge purely on playing performance, that fine, but I think there’s a wider set of considerations, including what was the expectation of signing him too...especially someone signed for £0 on a short term contract.

 

Just to add, with the exception to Kane Wilson, we’ve not seen a revolving door of players, if we’ve signed them they’ve generally hung around.  Besides Haikin, both Simpson and Klose signed on short term deals got extended.

We are now entering the realms of players signed hitting the cycle of renewing / extending.  Andy King is possibly a bit nuanced due to dual-role, and the short term nature of his deals, but Tanner and Atkinson (both summer 2021) - the first cycle of fee paid signings, have now extended.

If James wasn’t to extend that would still be 3 years of decent service.

Without making it about LJ, too few players signed in that era, extended whilst they were here.  Too many players left for free and I’m not meaning players past their sale-by date.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Davefevs

[ashton_fan]

The players here now are in a smaller squad so it stands to reason they'll be happier as they have a greater chance of being selected. In the past when we've had more players there have been some unhappy to sit on the sidelines (understandably) and so those are unlikely to want to renew their deals. I realise this isn't the only factor but it probably counts for quite a lot.

[Shauntaylor85]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But that’s the context of signing Haikin.

1. Primary - To allow Bentley, who was no longer no1 to move on before his contract ended, thus removing his high wages / avoid wasting his high wages for 5 more months plus get a small fee in January rather than nothing in July

2. Secondary - To have experienced cover for O’Leary whilst Bajic got first team mins at Valenciennes

If people want to judge purely on playing performance, that fine, but I think there’s a wider set of considerations, including what was the expectation of signing him too...especially someone signed for £0 on a short term contract.

 

Just to add, with the exception to Kane Wilson, we’ve not seen a revolving door of players, if we’ve signed them they’ve generally hung around.  Besides Haikin, both Simpson and Klose signed on short term deals got extended.

We are now entering the realms of players signed hitting the cycle of renewing / extending.  Andy King is possibly a bit nuanced due to dual-role, and the short term nature of his deals, but Tanner and Atkinson (both summer 2021) - the first cycle of fee paid signings, have now extended.

If James wasn’t to extend that would still be 3 years of decent service.

Without making it about LJ, too few players signed in that era, extended whilst they were here.  Too many players left for free and I’m not meaning players past their sale-by date.

Johnson final season: he spent between £25M to £30M, all those players aside from Wells (who now has zero re-sell value) left for………£0 with exception of a tribunal fee for Massengo. I think Nige wins hands down. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Shauntaylor85

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Johnson final season: he spent between £25M to £30M, all those players aside from Wells (who now has zero re-sell value) left for………£0 with exception of a tribunal fee for Massengo. I think Nige wins hands down. 

I know the OP titles it Nige v LJ, but there was some poor decision making up above on players like Diedhiou, and the infamous “we will get our value on the pitch”.

[Derek]

L J teams played tippy tappy rubbish with very little or no end product.

They were difficult to watch even when they won.

A Nigel  Pearson team is completely different.  

[Bristol Oil Services]

20 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

@Bristol Oil Services when you ask "does he [Pearson] have a chance here?" do you mean a) a chance at promotion or b) a chance at a new contract?

I can't quite get that clear from your posts.

But, I'll make some assumptions.

Does he need to unearth a gem to have a chance at getting us promoted (let's assume either this season or next assuming a new contract) - in my opinion yes. He's clearly not going to get funds to sign a 26 year-old ready made player capable of elevating a mid table squad into the top 6.

So, on the basis that a) I don't think this squad in this division is capable of a top 6 finish and b) he is only going to get funds for young or lower division players, yes he does need to find someone magic. Maybe not a Vardy, but someone pretty special.

If it's contracts you mean, then no. As he's now only got one window before his time is up, and after that window there will only be a dozen or so league games left, there's not much time for him to unearth the diamond in the rough and to then cut and shine that diamond into the proof required to cause Steve to present a new contract to him.

So in answer to your question: yes, but also no.

I suppose it's a contract extension, and as you say he's possibly run out of windows now. Maybe his only chance is to somehow steer us to a top six finish. He might need Knight or someone to perform like a £5m plus player this season.

I was trying to think what SL might be thinking, and people on here are busy saying "you can't compare now to LJ" but maybe Steve does? Maybe he thinks: "You're Nigel Pearson, promoted with Leicester, Jamie Vardy, Kante, Mahrez, etc, but you can't get us in the top half of the Championship. What's up?"

And by this far (Nige is 2 and a half years in the job now) in to his time here, LJ had brought in Brownhill and Webster, finished 11th (top half) and was about to improve on that.

As someone else says on this thread, I think correctly (?), no-one (higher up) has yet come in and snapped up any of the players signed by Nige, they have only paid big money for players Nige had no part in bringing to the club (Semenyo, Scott), although he has helped develop them of course.

If we sell Sykes to Brentford in January for £umpteen million, maybe Steve has pause for thought...

Maybe, despite all the challenges here, Steve thought a "name" like Nigel Pearson with his track-record would've delivered a bit more, by now?

[Bristol Oil Services]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why such an emphasis on finding a “gem” and that being the measure of success?  What qualifies as a gem?

As @cidercity1987 states, the models are completely different, the dynamics of the markets are completely different.

Forgive me, Dave, I am reading Jonathan Wilson's Clough biography, and I'm at the bit where he and Taylor are, in 24 months, taking Derby from 17th in Division 2 to Champions, largely through inspired old-school scouting and team building, and I started to day-dream, and I got a bit carried away, and then I thought about Nige at Leicester, second time, he does the same in the same time, two seasons it all clicks.

It was a bit of a dream-of-consciousness splurge of a thread on a hot day, wishful thinking. I'm not expecting Nige to take us into the top two of the Championship, but the top half isn't asking too much, is it?

And maybe he will. I hope so.

He just needs to bring in a 2023 Dave Mackay, John McGovern, Alan Hinton and a Willie Carlin. We got Kevin Hector already (Nakhi, or Tommy). Zak is Roy McFarland. Sykes is John O'Hare. No, he's Alan Hinton (what colour boots does Sykes wear?) 

Thing is, we got the tension between manager and owner, er, but not the other stuff, yet ..... 

[Bristol Oil Services]

20 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yes. Although the chances of him doing that are - what? Slim, I'd say. Finding a player as good as Vardy for nothing seems like a once-in-a-career thing to me.

 

Vardy was the most ever paid for a non-league player, probably still is. Loads were looking at him, Nige and Leicester took the plunge.

[chinapig]

22 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Maybe, despite all the challenges here, Steve thought a "name" like Nigel Pearson with his track-record would've delivered a bit more, by now?

If so he is ignoring the fact that LJ was allowed to keep increasing the wage bill while Nigel has had to slash it.

His only counter argument seems to be Luton but you'd expect that somebody with his background wouldn't draw a conclusion based on a single data point.

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

I suppose it's a contract extension, and as you say he's possibly run out of windows now. Maybe his only chance is to somehow steer us to a top six finish. He might need Knight or someone to perform like a £5m plus player this season.

I was trying to think what SL might be thinking, and people on here are busy saying "you can't compare now to LJ" but maybe Steve does? Maybe he thinks: "You're Nigel Pearson, promoted with Leicester, Jamie Vardy, Kante, Mahrez, etc, but you can't get us in the top half of the Championship. What's up?"

And by this far (Nige is 2 and a half years in the job now) in to his time here, LJ had brought in Brownhill and Webster, finished 11th (top half) and was about to improve on that.

As someone else says on this thread, I think correctly (?), no-one (higher up) has yet come in and snapped up any of the players signed by Nige, they have only paid big money for players Nige had no part in bringing to the club (Semenyo, Scott), although he has helped develop them of course.

If we sell Sykes to Brentford in January for £umpteen million, maybe Steve has pause for thought...

Maybe, despite all the challenges here, Steve thought a "name" like Nigel Pearson with his track-record would've delivered a bit more, by now?

If SL thinks in any way like you wonder how he might think, we might as well pack up and go home!

When you say he’d already bought Webster at the same point, 2.5 years into LJ’s reign was summer 2018, so yes he’d bought him, but he hadn’t played him at this point.  It’s a pedantic point, but it’s accurate, he wasn’t a £20m sale 2.5 years in.  He was buying Marley Watkins, Haks Adelakun too! Eek.  But he got to loan Kalas too.  We spent £10m in that window plus wage bill increase plus loan fees (Kalas and Dasilva).

At the point of summer 2018, perhaps SL was thinking:

- when am gonna see Jens Hegeler

- why is Taylor Moore going on loan again

- Gustav who

- what happened to that young Hinds lad

- what do you mean Lee Tomlin plays for Cardiff nowadays

We spent £3.5m on Webster, we basically signed a very capable Championship CB with 50+ games at that level under his belt.  SL should be thinking, what could Nige do with £3.5m on one player.  We took a risk on his injuries or else he’d have probably cost more and had better suitors than us.  That’s not criticising recruitment at all, it’s taking advantage, that’s a good thing.  

Brownhill, despite playing well in 17/18 (his second season) was still having to play RM because he couldn’t displace Korey and Marlon, although he was definitely starting to flourish and signs were there he was gonna usurp one of them the season after (his 3rd season).  He was sold in his 4th season.

SL appears to be outcome based, so he will be looking at the end results of Webster and Brownhill.  So back to sentence 1, I’m off!

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Davefevs

[Numero Uno]

23 hours ago, mozo said:

Worth clarifying that LJ didn't get us into the financial mess. The accounts weren't his responsibility. The owners and CEO take the flak for that.

I get your point here. If LJ was seen to be wasting the clubs money all the CEO and Owner had to say was “No, you can’t have this player and that player”. If you tell a Manager he’s got a war chest guess what he’s likely to do!! Our main problem arises from an Owner who seems to get his timings of when to spend and when not to all wrong and who to trust with the money and who not to………..how much of his own money has he pissed up against the wall because of that? You can’t criticise the level of investment, it’s the way he invested it that is the big issue.

[Numero Uno]

I find the comments about new ownership and "careful what you wish" for interesting.

Let's say we appointed an American as our next Owner (I won't go down the Arab route which seems to be often quoted by the careful what you wish for crew)............he comes in, looks at the FFP and thinks I'll tread water on the playing side for a while, make the ground 40K capacity so it's now one of the best dozen stadiums in the country but with some money making spin-offs attached enabling himself to make a bit of a return on the deal, also rips up the training ground, spends £100m building a complex that compares with anything in Europe and upgrades the Academy to Cat 1. He's making all the right noises.

A couple of seasons later with FFP relaxed he brings in an untried and untested Yank, and his coaching/medical staff, who is the son of somebody that's done a good job for him at Real Grand Canyon FC before and with FFP relaxing throws the kitchen sink at this new inexperienced Manager. He also brings in his American CEO Kurt Ashtonheimer who he trusts with his life and spends a shed load bringing in a number of American players who are considered "value" and "untapped talent" but they don't settle and after a season or so of things looking promising the new Manager ultimately fails. Kurt, now thinking "this might all come back on me" skins out and moves on to a new role in Ipswich to look after somebody's pension fund.

The new owner then says "no problem that was a blast but I'm going all serious now and found a Manager with an actual track record of getting into the Premier League to steady the ship", appoints said Manager and says "sorry son, I forgot to mention the tap has run dry, you make do with what you've got, you play the Academy lads, we sell them and build up a nest egg for three or four years time when I appoint the next Manager"................"that's if I'm around then because I'm fed up of bankrolling the club and getting a bit bored of it all, oh and by the way I've structured the whole thing to ensure I get as much of my £500m investment back as possible".

I'm guessing the above Doomsday Scenario is what we need to be "careful of wishing for"?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Numero Uno

[Davefevs]

I see what you did there

 

[shelts]

23 hours ago, glynriley said:

Random question. 

I try and think of what I watch as a product and how entertained I am . 

[shelts]

22 hours ago, Superjack said:

From Holden and the last season of Johnson, yes.

And from most of the rest of Johnson.

I agree with Holden and the last throws of LJ . 
Thoroughly enjoyed the run at the playoffs and the cup Semi being some of the best I’ve seen at the Gate 

[Superjack]

9 minutes ago, shelts said:

I agree with Holden and the last throws of LJ . 
Thoroughly enjoyed the run at the playoffs and the cup Semi being some of the best I’ve seen at the Gate 

Yes, I said 'most' for that reason.

[Shauntaylor85]

20 hours ago, Derek said:

L J teams played tippy tappy rubbish with very little or no end product.

They were difficult to watch even when they won.

A Nigel  Pearson team is completely different.  

Can I print this post and frame it please! He was clueless. Living off a Man Utd win. 

[ExiledAjax]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

But that’s the context of signing Haikin.

1. Primary - To allow Bentley, who was no longer no1 to move on before his contract ended, thus removing his high wages / avoid wasting his high wages for 5 more months plus get a small fee in January rather than nothing in July

2. Secondary - To have experienced cover for O’Leary whilst Bajic got first team mins at Valenciennes

If people want to judge purely on playing performance, that fine, but I think there’s a wider set of considerations, including what was the expectation of signing him too...especially someone signed for £0 on a short term contract.

Lets not fall out over Nikita Haikin. I can understand the need to get someone in to let Bentley go. But to give that signing credit for allowing Bajic - a player who's yet to do anything at all for us - to go on loan is stretching credibility to its maximum in my opinion. If that's the strategy around signing keepers then again, it's fairly unimpressive. 

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just to add, with the exception to Kane Wilson, we’ve not seen a revolving door of players, if we’ve signed them they’ve generally hung around.  Besides Haikin, both Simpson and Klose signed on short term deals got extended.

We are now entering the realms of players signed hitting the cycle of renewing / extending.  Andy King is possibly a bit nuanced due to dual-role, and the short term nature of his deals, but Tanner and Atkinson (both summer 2021) - the first cycle of fee paid signings, have now extended.

If James wasn’t to extend that would still be 3 years of decent service.

Without making it about LJ, too few players signed in that era, extended whilst they were here.  Too many players left for free and I’m not meaning players past their sale-by date.

Couple of points. 

Firstly, just because a player gets an extension it doesn't mean they're a good signing. You make that point yourself when you speak about the LJ era - too many extensions for mediocre players. Therefore the fact that Tanner and Atkinson have extended does not, by itself, indicate that they are successful signings. We're on a budget, and extensions are the second cheapest way of ensuring a squad in the future (the first being a promotion from the academy). If Pearson wants to ensure he's got 20 players to fill a matchday squad in the future, then extensions need to play a part.

Simpson should never have been signed in the first place, let alone extended. Klose I acknowledged did well and then faded, I believe influenced by his private family matters. 

Again, I am not trying to batter Pearson here at all. Every club signs duds. As a couple of examples Phillips has tanked at Man City, and Man Utd can't seem to make a transfer stick at all. Signing players that don't work out is not a negative, but I was making the point that Pearson doesn't have an unusually excellent record here.

Back to OPs point though, yes I think he needs to dig out a Vardy/Mahrez type, as he's got neither the time nor the budget to do much else.

Edited September 9, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Lets not fall out over Nikita Haikin. I can understand the need to get someone in to let Bentley go. But to give that signing credit for allowing Bajic - a player who's yet to do anything at all for us - to go on loan is stretching credibility to its maximum in my opinion. If that's the strategy around signing keepers then again, it's fairly unimpressive. 

Couple of points. 

Firstly, just because a player gets an extension it doesn't mean they're a good signing. You make that point yourself when you speak about the LJ era - too many extensions for mediocre players. Therefore the fact that Tanner and Atkinson have extended does not, by itself, indicate that they are successful signings. We're on a budget, and extensions are the second cheapest way of ensuring a squad in the future (the first being a promotion from the academy). If Pearson wants to ensure he's got 20 players to fill a matchday squad in the future, then extensions need to play a part.

Simpson should never have been signed in the first place, let alone extended. Klose I acknowledged did well and then faded, I believe influenced by his private family matters. 

Again, I am not trying to batter Pearson here at all. Every club signs duds. As a couple of examples Phillips has tanked at Man City, and Man Utd can't seem to make a transfer stick at all. Signing players that don't work out is not a negative, but I was making the point that Pearson doesn't have an unusually excellent record here.

Back to OPs point though, yes I think he needs to dig out a Vardy/Mahrez type, as he's got neither the time nor the budget to do much else.

Ok.

Nah. I said the opposite, “too few extensions”, happy to just move players on and try another new one.

I do agree that “extending” does not automatically make them a good signing.  I do think it shows a want / willingness to try to work with what you’ve brought in, some form of - “I bloody thought they were what we wanted so now it’s my job to try as hard as possible to make that happen”.  Yes, of course the financial situation dictates that to some extent, but even when the money was flowing, there’s no need to waste it on whimsical signings - quality not quantity would’ve been much better.  I’d rather the current approach to recruitment.

I guess he has his Vardy already in Conway.  Hoping Knight is his Mahrez in a different way.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ok.

Nah. I said the opposite, “too few extensions”, happy to just move players on and try another new one.

I do agree that “extending” does not automatically make them a good signing.  I do think it shows a want / willingness to try to work with what you’ve brought in, some form of - “I bloody thought they were what we wanted so now it’s my job to try as hard as possible to make that happen”.  Yes, of course the financial situation dictates that to some extent, but even when the money was flowing, there’s no need to waste it on whimsical signings - quality not quantity would’ve been much better.  I’d rather the current approach to recruitment.

I guess he has his Vardy already in Conway.  Hoping Knight is his Mahrez in a different way.

Fair, I misread that bit of your post about LJ. Hadn't had my coffee yet. 

Conway for Vardy, yeh ok.

Knight for Mahrez...yeh would have to be a different way. I think we're all saying Knight is a top signing already though aren't we?

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Ok.

Nah. I said the opposite, “too few extensions”, happy to just move players on and try another new one.

I do agree that “extending” does not automatically make them a good signing.  I do think it shows a want / willingness to try to work with what you’ve brought in, some form of - “I bloody thought they were what we wanted so now it’s my job to try as hard as possible to make that happen”.  Yes, of course the financial situation dictates that to some extent, but even when the money was flowing, there’s no need to waste it on whimsical signings - quality not quantity would’ve been much better.  I’d rather the current approach to recruitment.

I guess he has his Vardy already in Conway.  Hoping Knight is his Mahrez in a different way.

This is my problem with LJ. Too many ideas and no focus.
We never had a constant style/formation or even idea of how we would play. If you haven't a plan of how you want to set up and an idea of how you want to play, it's virtually impossible to recruit successfully.   Which could explain the scattergun approach employed by LJ & MA.