Separating the truth from fiction (I’m encouraged)

[Harry]

I’m rather encouraged by what I’ve seen so far with Manning. I know many won’t agree but that’s how I feel. 
 

I am keen to separate the performances under Manning from the ridiculous decisions and comments from Jon, Brian & Gavin. 
 

The reasons for sacking Pearson were, as we all know, spurious. 
Their comments about top 6, top end, best squad etc etc were again, spurious. 
 

I’ve said clearly on threads at that time that I will very much be judging the hierarchy on those comments and expectations. 
 

However, I am not judging Manning on those same comments and expectations. I will judge Manning on what I see on the field. 
 

In my opinion, the squad which Pearson had was a squad which I thought would be about 10th-15th, and would be one where we’d see less of the ball and be rather stodgy. A counterattack team which might get a few results against the grain but generally have less of the play but get enough results for mid table. 
I wasn’t expecting any more than that. 
 

With Manning, my expectations aren’t changing. I still think this is a mid table squad. 
However, I am really encouraged (and frankly amazed) that he’s got this team playing dominant possession football and having twice as many chances as the opposition. 
I actually really like how we’ve played so far. Yes, the results haven’t been there but I’ve enjoyed seeing a City team having 60%+ possession, looking like the better football team, being creative up front and making plenty of decent chances. I also liked today the battling qualities we showed - the 2nd half conditions were horrendous and we had to scrap for loose balls and aerials and we won more than our fair share - for once it seemed like the 2nd balls and ricochets mostly went our way, when can we ever say that as a City fan! Thats not luck. Its effort. 
 

Yes, we could easily have won today. We could easily have won v Norwich. We could have got a point at Southampton. We didn’t. And that will rightly be questioned, but the performances, for me, have been encouraging. 
 

Whatever Lansdown and Tinnion said, I will judge them at the end of the season. Failure is on their heads. 
For Manning, I’m positively encouraged by how he’s managing to get this team playing - I like what I’ve seen so far. I don’t think we’re too far off. Most of the goals against haven’t been anything to do with system, shape, management etc they’ve mostly been basic individual errors. 
Yes, those things will happen (they happened under Nige too). But overall I’m actually quite happy so far. 

[petehinton]

Said in the MDT, but Don’t think we’ll get anywhere until he’s been given transfer windows and has had a pre season. So really, no different to the situation under Pearson. To me, it all just feels like yet more time being willed away as a city fan. Sigh. 
 

Also not convinced in his odd second half approaches in each game so far. Maybe down to not knowing/trusting the squad enough yet, but his subs have leaved a lot to be desired. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by petehinton

[redkev]

I agree , I have deffo been impressed of what he’s trying to do , deffo better football but whether we have the player quality to implement what he is trying to do I don’t know yet 

[GrahamC]

Just now, petehinton said:

Said in the MDT, but Don’t think we’ll get anywhere until he’s been given transfer windows and has had a pre season. So really, no different to the situation under Pearson. To me, it all just feels like yet more time being willed away as a city fan. Sigh. 

So how is Cifuentes able to turn it around far quicker?

Their squad is definitely worse than ours & was playing prehistoric football under Ainsworth..

We on the other hand are back to the rinse and repeat of 3 transfer windows..

[robin_unreliant]

Wasn't the stodgy element due to NP trying to play a style that reduced the impact of individual errors? By playing deeper and counter-attacking we were a bit more solid - or stodgy in your terms.

My concern with the way we're playing now is when we lose the ball we look more likely to concede.

Swings and roundabouts I guess. While it is good to see us attack more often, reverting to giving away soft goals just leaves me frustrated and a bit fed up of the same old weaknesses coming back to the fore.

[firstdivision]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m rather encouraged by what I’ve seen so far with Manning. I know many won’t agree but that’s how I feel. 
 

I am keen to separate the performances under Manning from the ridiculous decisions and comments from Jon, Brian & Gavin. 
 

The reasons for sacking Pearson were, as we all know, spurious. 
Their comments about top 6, top end, best squad etc etc were again, spurious. 
 

I’ve said clearly on threads at that time that I will very much be judging the hierarchy on those comments and expectations. 
 

However, I am not judging Manning on those same comments and expectations. I will judge Manning on what I see on the field. 
 

In my opinion, the squad which Pearson had was a squad which I thought would be about 10th-15th, and would be one where we’d see less of the ball and be rather stodgy. A counterattack team which might get a few results against the grain but generally have less of the play but get enough results for mid table. 
I wasn’t expecting any more than that. 
 

With Manning, my expectations aren’t changing. I still think this is a mid table squad. 
However, I am really encouraged (and frankly amazed) that he’s got this team playing dominant possession football and having twice as many chances as the opposition. 
I actually really like how we’ve played so far. Yes, the results haven’t been there but I’ve enjoyed seeing a City team having 60%+ possession, looking like the better football team, being creative up front and making plenty of decent chances. I also liked today the battling qualities we showed - the 2nd half conditions were horrendous and we had to scrap for loose balls and aerials and we won more than our fair share - for once it seemed like the 2nd balls and ricochets mostly went our way, when can we ever say that as a City fan! Thats not luck. Its effort. 
 

Yes, we could easily have won today. We could easily have won v Norwich. We could have got a point at Southampton. We didn’t. And that will rightly be questioned, but the performances, for me, have been encouraging. 
 

Whatever Lansdown and Tinnion said, I will judge them at the end of the season. Failure is on their heads. 
For Manning, I’m positively encouraged by how he’s managing to get this team playing - I like what I’ve seen so far. I don’t think we’re too far off. Most of the goals against haven’t been anything to do with system, shape, management etc they’ve mostly been basic individual errors. 
Yes, those things will happen (they happened under Nige too). But overall I’m actually quite happy so far. 

I agree with most of this, Harry.
Very disappointed we didn’t win today because we controlled the game (Huddersfield gave up trying to win it) but there was a lot to encourage us as well. Huddersfield could easily get relegated but few games are straightforward in this league. We need a 2/3 more players and to be more ruthless (in attack and defence). 

[Northern Red]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

So how is Cifuentes able to turn it around far quicker?

Their squad is definitely worse than ours & was playing prehistoric football under Ainsworth..

We on the other hand are back to the rinse and repeat of 3 transfer windows..

Suggests to me that QPR were capable of better than they were producing, albeit at a lower base than us.

Whereas Pearson was almost certainly getting as much out of this squad as anyone was going to, no matter what the powers that be might think.

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Suggests to me that QPR were capable of better than they were producing, albeit at a lower base than us.

Whereas Pearson was almost certainly getting as much out of this squad as anyone was going to, no matter what the powers that be might think.

So we’re back to square one as to why the hell was he given the boot!  And round and round we go…….

[38MC]

Possession without purpose or intent is full time wasting. I haven’t enjoyed much so far. 
 

so much we could, we could. Why not ‘we should’ ? 

Edited December 9, 2023 by 38MC

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Northern Red said:

Suggests to me that QPR were capable of better than they were producing, albeit at a lower base than us.

Whereas Pearson was almost certainly getting as much out of this squad as anyone was going to, no matter what the powers that be might think.

Probably true, QPR were horrifically managed. The ability for that squad was there under Beale and they were just shot confidence and tactic wise.

It’s also true that Pearson probably did get as much out of the team as anyone was going to but in Liams own words he “doesn’t see it as a rebuild”. That has to mean tinkering with 1-2 in January to get a decent upswing as opposed to major surgery.

I’m probably (definitely) more concerned than Harry as to what I see thus far. I’m seeing more shots but not major evidence of GKs being worked. Our goal today was great but very reminiscent of a Nige goal - break lines quickly, in behind at pace and square. I’d definitely acknowledge that the errors aren’t systemic but may be due to players not playing in a way they’re comfortable - and if they can’t get comfortable then it is a rebuild.

As with anything in football, the truth is often a case of perspective. Over 5 games I haven’t seen a full game performance as yet, and have seen probably progressive deteriorated performance as games have gone on. My concern with Liam is the ability to change things - on a bizarre basis, we may have a stated progressive coach who is more rigid than most coaches as he is wedded to this way of playing. I’m just not convinced with these players  it can work - and that is a rebuild which has no guarantee of success 

[Loosey Boy]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m rather encouraged by what I’ve seen so far with Manning. I know many won’t agree but that’s how I feel. 
 

I am keen to separate the performances under Manning from the ridiculous decisions and comments from Jon, Brian & Gavin. 
 

The reasons for sacking Pearson were, as we all know, spurious. 
Their comments about top 6, top end, best squad etc etc were again, spurious. 
 

I’ve said clearly on threads at that time that I will very much be judging the hierarchy on those comments and expectations. 
 

However, I am not judging Manning on those same comments and expectations. I will judge Manning on what I see on the field. 
 

In my opinion, the squad which Pearson had was a squad which I thought would be about 10th-15th, and would be one where we’d see less of the ball and be rather stodgy. A counterattack team which might get a few results against the grain but generally have less of the play but get enough results for mid table. 
I wasn’t expecting any more than that. 
 

With Manning, my expectations aren’t changing. I still think this is a mid table squad. 
However, I am really encouraged (and frankly amazed) that he’s got this team playing dominant possession football and having twice as many chances as the opposition. 
I actually really like how we’ve played so far. Yes, the results haven’t been there but I’ve enjoyed seeing a City team having 60%+ possession, looking like the better football team, being creative up front and making plenty of decent chances. I also liked today the battling qualities we showed - the 2nd half conditions were horrendous and we had to scrap for loose balls and aerials and we won more than our fair share - for once it seemed like the 2nd balls and ricochets mostly went our way, when can we ever say that as a City fan! Thats not luck. Its effort. 
 

Yes, we could easily have won today. We could easily have won v Norwich. We could have got a point at Southampton. We didn’t. And that will rightly be questioned, but the performances, for me, have been encouraging. 
 

Whatever Lansdown and Tinnion said, I will judge them at the end of the season. Failure is on their heads. 
For Manning, I’m positively encouraged by how he’s managing to get this team playing - I like what I’ve seen so far. I don’t think we’re too far off. Most of the goals against haven’t been anything to do with system, shape, management etc they’ve mostly been basic individual errors. 
Yes, those things will happen (they happened under Nige too). But overall I’m actually quite happy so far. 

Just listening to Tommy on Radio Briz, for the first time, it’s really struck me how positive and excited the players seem to be, having LM in charge.

Whilst I didn’t agree with NP going, the “buzz” that TC had on the radio just now, has me looking forward, rather than back.

Let’s hope for another positive result on Tuesday now.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Just listening to Tommy on Radio Briz, for the first time, it’s really struck me how positive and excited the players seem to be, having LM in charge.

Whilst I didn’t agree with NP going, the “buzz” that TC had on the radio just now, has me looking forward, rather than back.

Let’s hope for another positive result on Tuesday now.

Another positive result? 

[megansdad]

decent performance - hope wide players watch McGinn's goal for Villa. As with better delivery from promising positions we would have one comfortably. They had one real chance from the breakaway and scored. We fashioned plenty but final ball often poor- would bring on Cornick ahead of Mehmeti who disappointed when in promising positions. Good to see Sukes back on the right.

[1960maaan]

9 minutes ago, 38MC said:

Possession without purpose or intent is full time wasting. I haven’t enjoyed much so far. 
 

so much we could, we could. Why not ‘we should’ ? 

The purpose is to move a packed defence around to find space, the intent is to use that space to create chances .

61% possession and 15 shots isn't bad, I'd like more than the 4 on target but the intent is there. We have to be more clinical and it's a shame TC seems so out of form or confidence , because we are creating chances thriugh keeping the ball. 

 

[steviestevieneville]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Another positive result? 

It’s a point away from home . So yes positive . 

[ChubStixx]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

It’s a point away from home . So yes positive . 

2 points dropped on my opinion.

[Ivorguy]

10 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Just listening to Tommy on Radio Briz, for the first time, it’s really struck me how positive and excited the players seem to be, having LM in charge.

Whilst I didn’t agree with NP going, the “buzz” that TC had on the radio just now, has me looking forward, rather than back.

Let’s hope for another positive result on Tuesday now.

I don’t agree this was a positive result against a very poor side.

Still say Manning needs 6 points from the three games, counting today, and that under 4 will be cause for concern

[Davefevs]

@Harry I’ve been happy with our performances so far, but I thought today, especially second half, we let ourselves down.  This was a very poor opponent.  And we didn’t move it as well, outside the opening 15 mins or so, as we have in other games.  Today was my least encouraged performance (QPR was a bit of misnomer in the evaluation process for me).

Against a Huddersfield side playing a low block and virtually a back 5, we were always gonna find it easy to get into their half.  We get little credit in my eyes for being able to do that today.

And we found ourselves exposed on the break, especially our LWB area.  They galloped into that area several times.  And no surprise that Headley started to get some breaks in the second half when Bell swapped over!!!  That’s a worry for me.  Sykes had Headley pinned until he came off.

The switch to 4213 on the hour also lost us Knight’s ability to find pockets.  His link up play with Sykes went at that moment.

A frustrating one for me.  I’ll take the point, rue the two we lost, but I won’t sit here tonight being over-enamoured with what I saw today.

Joe Williams decent, glad to see him back.  Dickie quality too.

[BCFC Rich]

5 minutes ago, megansdad said:

decent performance - hope wide players watch McGinn's goal for Villa. As with better delivery from promising positions we would have one comfortably. They had one real chance from the breakaway and scored. We fashioned plenty but final ball often poor- would bring on Cornick ahead of Mehmeti who disappointed when in promising positions. Good to see Sukes back on the right.

We do really lack a genuinely left-footed attacker to play down the left. We don't really get many good crosses in from that side. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

It’s a point away from home . So yes positive . 

Our top 6 team dropped 2 points against a team that will probably get relegated. 

My expectation is us pushing for the play offs this season so therefore it's not a positive result. 

[Alessandro]

Under Pearson - he clearly built a squad and playing style built around the budget he was given.

A pragmatic style for a pragmatic budget. Not spectacular, but neither did we give away many goals, let alone soft goals.

Solid mid table stuff.

Under Manning - he has come in and highlighted this - our squad was built for that style, so the possession based approach is having limited success, and for me, despite some good glimpses, has the potential to continue to have limited success under Manning.

Yes maybe we’re seeing more possession and now chances - but what it is doing is highlighting the deficiencies in the squad, in terms of quality and ability, to play this style. 

Hence, the many bad decisions, lack of composure and missed chances up top and the now every match mistakes that are costing us goals and games.

So the changes are not bringing the results…yet.

What will bring the results? More of the same? More time?? I’m not convinced. 

So for me all he’s doing is highlighting what we knew - you want this style, you want top 6? Well you’re going to need to spend money. 

[Charlie BCFC]

35 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

So how is Cifuentes able to turn it around far quicker?

Their squad is definitely worse than ours & was playing prehistoric football under Ainsworth..

We on the other hand are back to the rinse and repeat of 3 transfer windows..

Said this before but for me, under Ainsworth they were playing a style that didn’t suit the players they had. The squad was capable of much more and had players who are better in possession but are not physical at all. Players like Chair and Willock suit the style their playing right now perfectly 

[steviestevieneville]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Our top 6 team dropped 2 points against a team that will probably get relegated. 

My expectation is us pushing for the play offs this season so therefore it's not a positive result. 

And you’re still clinging to what that idiot Lansdown said. Forget what he said he’s a ****. A point away against anyone is positive . Would you have been happy with a point under Pearson ? 

[TV Tom]

8 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I don’t agree this was a positive result against a very poor side.

Still say Manning needs 6 points from the three games, counting today, and that under 4 will be cause for concern

Much better teams than us have failed to beat them this season

[TV Tom]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Our top 6 team dropped 2 points against a team that will probably get relegated. 

My expectation is us pushing for the play offs this season so therefore it's not a positive result. 

You need to let it go mate

[sh1t_ref_again]

8 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Just listening to Tommy on Radio Briz, for the first time, it’s really struck me how positive and excited the players seem to be, having LM in charge.

Whilst I didn’t agree with NP going, the “buzz” that TC had on the radio just now, has me looking forward, rather than back.

Let’s hope for another positive result on Tuesday now.

As was Naismith on Robins TV, guess some will say they have to say that as he's the gaffer, but not sure that's the case

I did not want Nige sacked, and was unsure about Manning, we know what JL said was a smokescreen as JL even said in one of the interviews there are things he cannot say. I wonder how little Nige ended up doing with the players and perhaps they are excited by LM ideas and energy.

We seem to be improving our ball retention and starting to dominant teams that we did not do often under Nige and bar a few individual errors which were not due to a new system we could be several wins better off.

[38MC]

12 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The purpose is to move a packed defence around to find space, the intent is to use that space to create chances .

61% possession and 15 shots isn't bad, I'd like more than the 4 on target but the intent is there. We have to be more clinical and it's a shame TC seems so out of form or confidence , because we are creating chances thriugh keeping the ball. 

 

Sorry. I just find fact from fiction antagonistic. The facts are the results, the points and the efficacy. All of which are poor. The footballing standard is poor, to the purist it looks good, but it’s poor. This is smelling or SOD MK II where apparently we have to believe in ineffectiveness because given enough time it might look good. 
 

where Harry and I totally agree is in expectations for LM and this is a lower mid table squad performing as such. Where we disagree is ‘this is encouraging’. I’m not encouraged. And that’s based on facts not fiction for how football should be played. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

Under Pearson - he clearly built a squad and playing style built around the budget he was given.

A pragmatic style for a pragmatic budget. Not spectacular, but neither did we give away many goals, let alone soft goals.

Solid mid table stuff.

Under Manning - he has come in and highlighted this - our squad was built for that style, so the possession based approach is having limited success, and for me, despite some good glimpses, has the potential to continue to have limited success under Manning.

Yes maybe we’re seeing more possession and now chances - but what it is doing is highlighting the deficiencies in the squad, in terms of quality and ability, to play this style. 

Hence, the many bad decisions, lack of composure and missed chances up top and the now every match mistakes that are costing us goals and games.

So the changes are not bringing the results…yet.

What will bring the results? More of the same? More time?? I’m not convinced. 

So for me all he’s doing is highlighting what we knew - you want this style, you want top 6? Well you’re going to need to spend money. 

This is what it all boils down to for me. 

Pearsons gone, I'm over that. 

Once I got my head around it I was like ok we now have an opportunity to appoint someone to enhance upon that style and take on the good opportunity. Ranieri taking over from Pearson at Leicester is a good example of that. 

But then we bring in someone who has a style that doesn't suit the players we have. Which means we're going to need to spend money to acquire those players. I consider that to be a gamble that we didn't need to take. After all we've been through with cutting budgets etc then I'm wary about us spending money. 

There is also no guarantee that bringing in players will improve results. In some ways we're back to the LJ days where it was perceived that we needed new players to get better results. 

We had a team that the right appointment could have taken forward without the need of bringing in players. But we went down a different path and now we're at a point where we are forced to spend money. I don't like that. 

[steviestevieneville]

13 minutes ago, ChubStixx said:

2 points dropped on my opinion.

No one’s got a Devine right to win football matches. We’re conceding soft goals & not taking our chances. 

[Harry]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Harry I’ve been happy with our performances so far, but I thought today, especially second half, we let ourselves down.  This was a very poor opponent.  And we didn’t move it as well, outside the opening 15 mins or so, as we have in other games.  Today was my least encouraged performance (QPR was a bit of misnomer in the evaluation process for me).

Against a Huddersfield side playing a low block and virtually a back 5, we were always gonna find it easy to get into their half.  We get little credit in my eyes for being able to do that today.

And we found ourselves exposed on the break, especially our LWB area.  They galloped into that area several times.  And no surprise that Headley started to get some breaks in the second half when Bell swapped over!!!  That’s a worry for me.  Sykes had Headley pinned until he came off.

The switch to 4213 on the hour also lost us Knight’s ability to find pockets.  His link up play with Sykes went at that moment.

A frustrating one for me.  I’ll take the point, rue the two we lost, but I won’t sit here tonight being over-enamoured with what I saw today.

Joe Williams decent, glad to see him back.  Dickie quality too.

I agree that there were a couple of causes for concern. Bell was poor today and the left wing was exposed a couple of times. And as you say, that also happened as soon as went to the right too!! 
I thought the way we set up was good. The back 3 then had 2 holding midfielders which created a solid 5 (almost in a pentagram shape) which made it hard for the opponents to get anything down the middle. 
The 2 wing backs were very high in possession, but I was happy with this because we had the extra defensive midfielder, so we had enough bodies back if they did manage to get possession wide. 
The goal only game from our own corner so the generic shape of the team wasn’t applicable for that set piece move. And it was ultimately a piece of shite play from Tanner. 
 

I think we had 2 weak links today. Bell and Tanner. But that’s where we are. 
 

As I’ve said, I never expected a playoff run under Pearson with these players and I’m not expecting it under Manning either. I think we’ll finish in about the same position we would’ve done under Nige, but I’m enthused that we are actually now a team with better possession and more shots, and more penetration into the opposition box. 
For me, I’d rather we finish 10th watching this than finish 10th watching what we were previously seeing. 

Thats why I’m happy. I don’t see the results being vastly different but I’m encouraged that we are playing better possession and more creative football. But that’s the kind of football I like, so I can see why others may not agree with me if they prefer 40% possession counterattack football. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Harry