Separating the truth from fiction (I’m encouraged)

[Kibs]

50 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

So how is Cifuentes able to turn it around far quicker?

Their squad is definitely worse than ours & was playing prehistoric football under Ainsworth..

We on the other hand are back to the rinse and repeat of 3 transfer windows..

It’s an impressive turnaround. They’ve just won 3 in a row. When did we last win 3 in a row?

[the1stknowle]

52 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m rather encouraged by what I’ve seen so far with Manning. I know many won’t agree but that’s how I feel. 
 

I am keen to separate the performances under Manning from the ridiculous decisions and comments from Jon, Brian & Gavin. 
 

The reasons for sacking Pearson were, as we all know, spurious. 
Their comments about top 6, top end, best squad etc etc were again, spurious. 
 

I’ve said clearly on threads at that time that I will very much be judging the hierarchy on those comments and expectations. 
 

However, I am not judging Manning on those same comments and expectations. I will judge Manning on what I see on the field. 
 

In my opinion, the squad which Pearson had was a squad which I thought would be about 10th-15th, and would be one where we’d see less of the ball and be rather stodgy. A counterattack team which might get a few results against the grain but generally have less of the play but get enough results for mid table. 
I wasn’t expecting any more than that. 
 

With Manning, my expectations aren’t changing. I still think this is a mid table squad. 
However, I am really encouraged (and frankly amazed) that he’s got this team playing dominant possession football and having twice as many chances as the opposition. 
I actually really like how we’ve played so far. Yes, the results haven’t been there but I’ve enjoyed seeing a City team having 60%+ possession, looking like the better football team, being creative up front and making plenty of decent chances. I also liked today the battling qualities we showed - the 2nd half conditions were horrendous and we had to scrap for loose balls and aerials and we won more than our fair share - for once it seemed like the 2nd balls and ricochets mostly went our way, when can we ever say that as a City fan! Thats not luck. Its effort. 
 

Yes, we could easily have won today. We could easily have won v Norwich. We could have got a point at Southampton. We didn’t. And that will rightly be questioned, but the performances, for me, have been encouraging. 
 

Whatever Lansdown and Tinnion said, I will judge them at the end of the season. Failure is on their heads. 
For Manning, I’m positively encouraged by how he’s managing to get this team playing - I like what I’ve seen so far. I don’t think we’re too far off. Most of the goals against haven’t been anything to do with system, shape, management etc they’ve mostly been basic individual errors. 
Yes, those things will happen (they happened under Nige too). But overall I’m actually quite happy so far. 

Amen. Some sense. Completely agree - it's still very new but I just think those refusing to see any positives in what we are doing on the pitch currently are being wilfully blind. We were a work in progress when he took over. And we remain a work in progress. But progress there clearly has been. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

And you’re still clinging to what that idiot Lansdown said. Forget what he said he’s a ****. A point away against anyone is positive . Would you have been happy with a point under Pearson ? 

My own expectations were for us to be challenging for the play offs under Pearson.

2 points away at Huddersfield and QPR is shit mate. Yes it's better than losing but we're never going to be getting to the Premier league if we're thinking a point at a team that's likely to be relegated is a positive. 

We need to be angry at ourselves that we only got a point. 

No I wouldn't have been. I'd have been saying the same as I likely did when we drew there last season. 

[Numero Uno]

13 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Under Pearson - he clearly built a squad and playing style built around the budget he was given.

A pragmatic style for a pragmatic budget. Not spectacular, but neither did we give away many goals, let alone soft goals.

Solid mid table stuff.

Under Manning - he has come in and highlighted this - our squad was built for that style, so the possession based approach is having limited success, and for me, despite some good glimpses, has the potential to continue to have limited success under Manning.

Yes maybe we’re seeing more possession and now chances - but what it is doing is highlighting the deficiencies in the squad, in terms of quality and ability, to play this style. 

Hence, the many bad decisions, lack of composure and missed chances up top and the now every match mistakes that are costing us goals and games.

So the changes are not bringing the results…yet.

What will bring the results? More of the same? More time?? I’m not convinced. 

So for me all he’s doing is highlighting what we knew - you want this style, you want top 6? Well you’re going to need to spend money. 

As you say Manning might be playing a blinder. “You want front foot? You want top 6? Let’s do the front foot with this mob and see what happens then.”.

Come January it may well be a case of “what do you want me to do? Front foot? I need plenty of players. Revert to counter attack? Not so many.”.

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

This is what it all boils down to for me. 

Pearsons gone, I'm over that. 

Once I got my head around it I was like ok we now have an opportunity to appoint someone to enhance upon that style and take on the good opportunity. Ranieri taking over from Pearson at Leicester is a good example of that. 

But then we bring in someone who has a style that doesn't suit the players we have. Which means we're going to need to spend money to acquire those players. I consider that to be a gamble that we didn't need to take. After all we've been through with cutting budgets etc then I'm wary about us spending money. 

There is also no guarantee that bringing in players will improve results. In some ways we're back to the LJ days where it was perceived that we needed new players to get better results. 

We had a team that the right appointment could have taken forward without the need of bringing in players. But we went down a different path and now we're at a point where we are forced to spend money. I don't like that. 

I agree with a lot of this but you contradict yourself. You say with the right appointment we could gone forward but also have a pop at JL for saying we have a top 6 squad. It can’t be both. We all know , no matter what JL & BT say. The squads nowhere near good enough for the play offs. I do agree that manning can’t play the way he wants completely with the players he has , which makes the top brass statement even more ridiculous 

[the1stknowle]

46 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Whereas Pearson was almost certainly getting as much out of this squad as anyone was going to,

Again. I'm a Nige fan. But I do not see how you can make that statement with such authority. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, TV Tom said:

You need to let it go mate

You need to stop telling me what to do. It's getting weird now. 

[steviestevieneville]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

My own expectations were for us to be challenging for the play offs under Pearson.

2 points away at Huddersfield and QPR is shit mate. Yes it's better than losing but we're never going to be getting to the Premier league if we're thinking a point at a team that's likely to be relegated is a positive. 

We need to be angry at ourselves that we only got a point. 

No I wouldn't have been. I'd have been saying the same as I likely did when we drew there last season. 

Ok. I personally never thought we were good enough for the play offs. There’s not enough quality in midfield & we haven’t got enough goals in us 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My own expectations were for us to be challenging for the play offs under Pearson.

2 points away at Huddersfield and QPR is shit mate. Yes it's better than losing but we're never going to be getting to the Premier league if we're thinking a point at a team that's likely to be relegated is a positive. 

We need to be angry at ourselves that we only got a point. 

No I wouldn't have been. I'd have been saying the same as I likely did when we drew there last season. 

This is rather odd. 
You have been highly critical of JL and BT claiming we are a top 6 team and yet you say that your own expectations under Nige was a playoff spot. 
Can’t have it both ways. 
 

For the record, I don’t know anyone in my circle who expected a playoff run this season under Nige. 

[BCFC Rich]

I think you have a group of fans who wanted NP gone for a long time giving credit to the performances under LM they would have never given if NP was still in charge. And a group of fans still so angry about NP going (and the way the club handled it) who would have been seeing way more positives if we'd had the exact same performances and NP was still here. 

1:1 is probably the fair result - given that Huddersfield probably should have had a pen and we edged the game. It wasn't our best-ever performance or our worst. But it was an away draw in f$%^ing awful conditions and there were positive signs.

I don't see how if you're being balanced there is any need to be hyperbolic about this game either way. 

[Red from afar]

I went today with a group of friends who aren't City fans ( Don't live down south any more). From a neutrals point of view, they thought City were far better than Hudders and deserved to win, but just lacked a bit of composure in the first half when we were on top and committed too many people to the corner when we lost goal on the counter attack. Thought it might help to have a neutrals point of view.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, steviestevieneville said:

I agree with a lot of this but you contradict yourself. You say with the right appointment we could gone forward but also have a pop at JL for saying we have a top 6 squad. It can’t be both. We all know , no matter what JL & BT say. The squads nowhere near good enough for the play offs. I do agree that manning can’t play the way he wants completely with the players he has , which makes the top brass statement even more ridiculous 

No it's not a contridiction as even up until when Pearson was sacked I believed that under Pearson we could be challenging for the play offs towards the end of the season. The key ingredient to that was Pearson as I felt he was able to maximise results from this group of players so by default my opinion is that it was good enough under Pearson. 

So by the right appointment I mean someone who would be able to go beyond the challenging towards the end of the season to actually getting us in them. 

 

[38MC]

34 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The purpose is to move a packed defence around to find space, the intent is to use that space to create chances .

61% possession and 15 shots isn't bad, I'd like more than the 4 on target but the intent is there. We have to be more clinical and it's a shame TC seems so out of form or confidence , because we are creating chances thriugh keeping the ball. 

 

I do understand and agree with the purpose. I’m not a hyperbolist that we pass back and forth with no intent, it is to drag out and to create space. But this should be not at the expense of mixing it up and also going direct when it takes us. Norwich game is case in point for that.

I think we are running down the same line we ran with SOD. playing the game how we think it should be played, not how it should be played for the squad and the limitations our squad has. I’m seeing our tactical approach as a square peg in a round hole. 
 

Edit - I’m calling myself not a hyperbolist but I am probably very guilty of reacting to the thread title which I think is incredibly disingenuous and also patronising  

Edited December 9, 2023 by 38MC

[bcfc01]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

This is rather odd. 
You have been highly critical of JL and BT claiming we are a top 6 team and yet you say that your own expectations under Nige was a playoff spot. 
Can’t have it both ways. 
 

For the record, I don’t know anyone in my circle who expected a playoff run this season under Nige. 

I don't know of anyone at all who expected top 6 (including JL, that was just a piss poor excuse to get rid of NP).

To keep repeating something that was obviously a load of bollux is a bit weird tbh.

[cotswoldred2]

41 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Another positive result? 

Yes, unless you want a defeat.

 

 

 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

6 minutes ago, Harry said:

This is rather odd. 
You have been highly critical of JL and BT claiming we are a top 6 team and yet you say that your own expectations under Nige was a playoff spot. 
Can’t have it both ways. 
 

For the record, I don’t know anyone in my circle who expected a playoff run this season under Nige. 

What rather is odd is that you are twisting my words because I've not said that. 

I've very clearly said challenging. Feel free to go back through all my posts and you will find I've been very consistent in saying that my expectation was for us to be in with a shout of the play offs come April. 

For the record, being 10th and a few points off the play offs with a few games left would be considered as challenging for example. Which I think would have been a reasonable expectation for most. 

Please don't twist my words again. It doesn't look good on you. 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I don't know of anyone at all who expected top 6 (including JL, that was just a piss poor excuse to get rid of NP).

To keep repeating something that was obviously a load of bollux is a bit weird tbh.

The problem with talking complete and utter bollocks is your critics will forever use it as a stick to beat you with.

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, cotswoldred2 said:

Yes, unless you want a defeat.

 

 

 

 

Win = good

Draw = bad

Loss = very bad.

It's quite simple. 

[Kid in the Riot]

27 minutes ago, Harry said:

For the record, I don’t know anyone in my circle who expected a playoff run this season under Nige. 

No-one did, and it's rewriting of history to suggest otherwise.

Nige was in charge for 7 home league games this season and won 2 of them.

2.

Yet people bang on about some mythical "winning mentality" he had instilled. And a shot at the play-offs? Pull the other one. 

I like Nige, but we were going to finish midtable with him, and will likely finish midtable without him. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Kid in the Riot

[bcfc01]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

The problem with talking complete and utter bollocks is your critics will forever use it as a stick to beat you with.

Which is fine.

But endlessly using it against other supporters is a bit shit really - and extremely boring.

[The Nest Egg]

Boro game was the most fun I've had at Ashton Gate in years to be fair 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree that there were a couple of causes for concern. Bell was poor today and the left wing was exposed a couple of times. And as you say, that also happened as soon as went to the right too!! 
I thought the way we set up was good. The back 3 then had 2 holding midfielders which created a solid 5 (almost in a pentagram shape) which made it hard for the opponents to get anything down the middle. 
The 2 wing backs were very high in possession, but I was happy with this because we had the extra defensive midfielder, so we had enough bodies back if they did manage to get possession wide. 
The goal only game from our own corner so the generic shape of the team wasn’t applicable for that set piece move. And it was ultimately a piece of shite play from Tanner. 
 

I think we had 2 weak links today. Bell and Tanner. But that’s where we are. 
 

As I’ve said, I never expected a playoff run under Pearson with these players and I’m not expecting it under Manning either. I think we’ll finish in about the same position we would’ve done under Nige, but I’m enthused that we are actually now a team with better possession and more shots, and more penetration into the opposition box. 
For me, I’d rather we finish 10th watching this than finish 10th watching what we were previously seeing. 

Thats why I’m happy. I don’t see the results being vastly different but I’m encouraged that we are playing better possession and more creative football. But that’s the kind of football I like, so I can see why others may not agree with me if they prefer 40% possession counterattack football. 

Looking at just the positives today, It was interesting to see us play more of a “box” (3421) first hour, rather than the 343 v Saints, before reverting to 4231 on the hour.

The Sykes / Knight dynamic was good.

The ability to get Weimann onto their RCB3, rather than see someone like Bell or Mehmeti hugging the left wing.  The goal is partly down to that too.  Dickie threading a more dangerous direction on his through ball, rather than it going out to the wing.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

No-one did, and it's rewriting of history to suggest otherwise.

Nige was in charge for 7 home games this season and won 2 of them.

2.

Yet people bang on about some mythical "winning mentality" he had instilled. And a shot at the play-offs? Pull the other one. 

I like Nige, but we were going to finish midtable with him, and will likely finish midtable without him. 

Do they?

They talk more of good team ethic, doing the hard yards, leaving it all out there.

[steviestevieneville]

9 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No it's not a contridiction as even up until when Pearson was sacked I believed that under Pearson we could be challenging for the play offs towards the end of the season. The key ingredient to that was Pearson as I felt he was able to maximise results from this group of players so by default my opinion is that it was good enough under Pearson. 

So by the right appointment I mean someone who would be able to go beyond the challenging towards the end of the season to actually getting us in them. 

 

I get what you mean . As I said personally I don’t think we got enough goals in us. As things stand JL & BT have backed themselves into a corner. If we spend in January getting 2 or 3 in then the question will be why Nige wasn’t given the money . If we don’t spend & end up mid table then they’ll be questioned why they made the change at all. 

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, The Nest Egg said:

Boro game was the most fun I've had at Ashton Gate in years to be fair 

You're easily pleased.

[Numero Uno]

Just now, bcfc01 said:

Which is fine.

But endlessly using it against other supporters is a bit shit really - and extremely boring.

My take on it is that Manning hasn’t said anything about finishing top 6, he wouldn’t be so downright stupid, so it’s not his issue. Stupid and Stupider have die on that particular sword.

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

No-one did, and it's rewriting of history to suggest otherwise.

Nige was in charge for 7 home games this season and won 2 of them.

2.

Yet people bang on about some mythical "winning mentality" he had instilled. And a shot at the play-offs? Pull the other one. 

I like Nige, but we were going to finish midtable with him, and will likely finish midtable without him. 

So why change manager mid season then ?

[W-S-M Seagull]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

I get what you mean . As I said personally I don’t think we got enough goals in us. As things stand JL & BT have backed themselves into a corner. If we spend in January getting 2 or 3 in then the question will be why Nige wasn’t given the money . If we don’t spend & end up mid table then they’ll be questioned why they made the change at all. 

It's just an unnecessary mess and it just feels like any hope of having a good season has gone. 

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

So why change manager mid season then ?

Umm. Ask JL ?

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No it's not a contridiction as even up until when Pearson was sacked I believed that under Pearson we could be challenging for the play offs towards the end of the season. The key ingredient to that was Pearson as I felt he was able to maximise results from this group of players so by default my opinion is that it was good enough under Pearson. 

So by the right appointment I mean someone who would be able to go beyond the challenging towards the end of the season to actually getting us in them. 

 

Fair enough. I don’t mean to twist your words. When you wrote “challenging for the playoffs” I read that as making a good run at it. If you’re happy to be a couple of points off of it then fair enough. 
I’ve always thought we’re mid table. And I still think that. But I think we’re playing more attractive football now. 
 

And I still think that what JL and BT have said is utter bollocks and their judgement will come.