Separating the truth from fiction (I’m encouraged)

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Simon bristol said:

Thats like turkeys voting for Christmas, which player is going to come out in the local press and say anything but how he loves working with the new coaches and is excited for the future?

^ This.

I am still sure Louis Carey holds the world record or learning the greatest amount in the least possible time from new staff.

Every new manager, coach or passing stranger taught him more in 3 minutes than he had ever known before.

Reflecting on it, it was a wonder he knew to wear boots.

Doctor Who would have struggled to keep up. Or back. Or somewhere in-between.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Bristol Rob

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Completely forgot about the goal against Norwich. But then it was a game to forget! 

But never less. 1ppg and 1gpg would likely see a team relegated over the course of a season. 

Not quite.

1 ppg would get you enough points to stay up in the majority of seasons.

A team can win the league with 1 goal per game.

[bcfc01]

4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

^ This.

I am still sure Louis Carey holds the world record or learning the greatest amount in the least possible time from new staff.

Every new manager, coach or passing stranger taught him more in 3 minutes than he had ever known before.

Reflecting on it, it was a wonder he knew to wear boots.

Doctor Who would have struggled to keep up. Or back. Or somewhere in-between.

True about Carey, but he'd change his mind just as quick.

[redsquirrel]

5 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

^ This.

I am still sure Louis Carey holds the world record or learning the greatest amount in the least possible time from new staff.

Every new manager, coach or passing stranger taught him more in 3 minutes than he had ever known before.

Reflecting on it, it was a wonder he knew to wear boots.

Doctor Who would have struggled to keep up. Or back. Or somewhere in-between.

reminds me of when one manager wasnt too chuffed with him for dropping a barbecue on one of his feet 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, supercidered said:

No I'm really not missing the point.

And my answer to point 2 above. I haven't seen anything very positive so far. If people are going to say that we have had more shots than under Pearson then we really are clutching at straws.

I've got nothing against LM. I just don't think he is in any way a good fit or good enough to be our Head Coach. It certainly hasn't got anything to do with the dissatisfaction of the ownership, I'm sure they will all still be here a lot longer than what LM will be. So I'm resigned to this and will just have to put up with it.

I was responding to Loosey Boy and not Harry's original post.

Here’s some boring old data:

Its still a very small sample, 5 games, but it will be good to look at in another 5/6 games, and see if importantly results have picked up and a bit less importantly whether we can see some real trends that highlight why results have picked up (or not).

Not saying data should be the be-all and end-all, but to take your clutching at straws point…we’ve actually had less shots under LM.  “Funny old game Saint”!!!

Much of the numbers are actually relatively close up or down, apart from passing and pressing….leading to a very early gut feel that regardless of how we play, the end results might be quite similar.

I’d class that as having a bunch of players that are adaptable to playing style, but of an ability level that doesn’t make too much difference.

I’m hoping that this is just because the sample size is small and that by the time we get past Millwall on Jan 1st with a cup game to come we know a lot more about what works and what doesn’t.

[Silvio Dante]

To give some balance here, Kal was on Robins TV Saturday and he sounded more than contractually obligated to be enthused with Manning, so I can also believe that Tommys in that boat. 

It’s clearly positive if the players like him and are buying into him. To be honest, I wouldn’t expect anything less as there aren’t any poor characters in the group. (I think I made this point pre Manning on a thread “How will the players react”).  

Two other things are undoubtedly equally true - that, as has been said, players will be positive (and sometimes overly) about a new boss as they want to play. But as there was some real psycho analysing bull about Tommys demeanour post Nige, I’d be reticent to swing the other way on an EP interview.

Secondly, even if the players like LM it means diddly if we don’t get performances or results. I’d rather they hated him and we won!

Bottom line is there was a post earlier saying that people were jumping on anything LM said and using it as an excuse to be negative. This is a prime example of going the other way and it’s starting a fight on an empty room. It’s an interesting (but largely expected) interview - no more, no less.

[bcfc01]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s some boring old data:

Its still a very small sample, 5 games, but it will be good to look at in another 5/6 games, and see if importantly results have picked up and a bit less importantly whether we can see some real trends that highlight why results have picked up (or not).

Not saying data should be the be-all and end-all, but to take your clutching at straws point…we’ve actually had less shots under LM.  “Funny old game Saint”!!!

Much of the numbers are actually relatively close up or down, apart from passing and pressing….leading to a very early gut feel that regardless of how we play, the end results might be quite similar.

I’d class that as having a bunch of players that are adaptable to playing style, but of an ability level that doesn’t make too much difference.

I’m hoping that this is just because the sample size is small and that by the time we get past Millwall on Jan 1st with a cup game to come we know a lot more about what works and what doesn’t.

I think there is a bit of context to add in that Manning is new and his 5 games (4 really) are with a squad that he is getting to know. The previous 15 are with a squad that the manager/coaches know well (injuries barring).  But, as you say, the next 6 games (or 5 depending on if QPR counts) will be enough to gauge progress or not.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

To give some balance here, Kal was on Robins TV Saturday and he sounded more than contractually obligated to be enthused with Manning, so I can also believe that Tommys in that boat. 

It’s clearly positive if the players like him and are buying into him. To be honest, I wouldn’t expect anything less as there aren’t any poor characters in the group. (I think I made this point pre Manning on a thread “How will the players react”).  

Two other things are undoubtedly equally true - that, as has been said, players will be positive (and sometimes overly) about a new boss as they want to play. But as there was some real psycho analysing bull about Tommys demeanour post Nige, I’d be reticent to swing the other way on an EP interview.

Secondly, even if the players like LM it means diddly if we don’t get performances or results. I’d rather they hated him and we won!

Bottom line is there was a post earlier saying that people were jumping on anything LM said and using it as an excuse to be negative. This is a prime example of going the other way and it’s starting a fight on an empty room. It’s an interesting (but largely expected) interview - no more, no less.

I just posted Tommy’s club interview on Saturday.  Without hearing Tommy’s interview with the written media it’s hard to get a true view of body language / tone, but if I were Tommy I’d be happy to be scoring, being the main striker etc.

Thats not to say he’s not excited, but I think that’s partly his character, and a fairly normal reaction to a new boss who sees you as a key player.  Buzzing for him!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Davefevs

[Silvio Dante]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I just posted Tommy’s club interview on Saturday.  Without hearing Tommy’s interview with the written media it’s hard to get a true view of body language / tone, but if I were Tommy I’d be happy to be scoring, being the main striker etc.

Thats not to say he’s not excited, but I think that’s partly his character, and a fairly normal reaction to a new boss who sees you as a key player.  Buzzing for him!

Just watched. I’m not sure there’s anything in that interview majorly either positive or negative - it’s a pretty standard post match interview (not helped by Dave Barton again and running through his tick list of questions as opposed to reacting to the answers).

I refer you to my prior comment about overly psycho analysing bull…!

[transfer reader]

6 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

Not going to name anyone simply because the point is about extremes on the forum and not necessarily about the specific view of an individual(s). The fact that there are so many posts on the various threads covering poster’s opposing views on the coaching set up makes it clear that opinion is very split. Highlighting specific individuals to make a point only serves to make the argument more personal, and there is enough of that on here already.

I don't recall a single post that would indicate anyone thinks LM is a "coaching messiah"

Nothing even close to that has been posted.

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

I think there is a bit of context to add in that Manning is new and his 5 games (4 really) are with a squad that he is getting to know. The previous 15 are with a squad that the manager/coaches know well (injuries barring).  But, as you say, the next 6 games (or 5 depending on if QPR counts) will be enough to gauge progress or not.

To add a bit more context, other managers have taken over clubs and despite them not knowing the squad, have delivered instant results and improvements in performances. 

Pearson for example came in and won 3 out of his first 5 (we had lost the previous 7 before he came in) 

Your post screams of 'give him time' 

Firstly there is no guarantee that we will see improvements over time. That's just some blind faith. 

Secondly, if we have to give him time to see if he can bring improvements, he clearly wasn't the right choice. He has to deliver results and improvements in performances now. 

[bexhill reds]

5 hours ago, transfer reader said:

I don't recall a single post that would indicate anyone thinks LM is a "coaching messiah"

Nothing even close to that has been posted.

I was highlighting extremes and not necessarily a single specific view, which is the same as the negative coaching drone point. Sorry you missed that nuance, life is too short to forensically examine everything thread to quote specifics.

Perhaps my line should be that some are very excited about what is on paper a very inexperienced manager (and for avoidance of doubt and pedantry) I am not referring to his extensive youth and U21 experience, whereas others are totally underwhelmed and need some convincing. 
 

I’m erring towards the latter and as a have said previously I’m open minded enough to accept that I might be wrong with my view, but the driver for that change will be in results and points, and not possession stats or new coaching ideas.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by bexhill reds

[ExiledAjax]

3 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Pearson for example came in and won 3 out of his first 5 (we had lost the previous 7 before he came in) 

Pearson won two out of his first five. He was in the stands for Boro and didn't  take charge until after that game.

This is the quote from the club on 22 February "The Robins have agreed a deal until the end of May with the 57-year-old, who will observe Tuesday evening’s Sky Bet Championship match against Middlesbrough before officially taking charge ahead of Saturday’s trip to Swansea City."

We also lost six games, not seven, prior to that Boro win under Simpson/Downing.

After that second win under Pearson we drew three and lost seven of the final 10 games of that season.

But those early games were write offs. The squad was a train wreck and it was mid pandemic and messy. I'd never use those results to either beat Pearson or compare him to Manning.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Yea I'm struggling to see what you're seeing to be honest. 

Where's the purpose? We're averaging less than a goal a game so far. 

And we averaged how many goals per game NP’s last five games?

[ExiledAjax]

5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And we averaged how many goals per game NP’s last five games?

Thing is those 5 games were played under very different circumstances as well. The mini injury crisis means there's a chunky asterisk next to the figures from those games imo.

Tbh I'm not sure which set of 5 Pearson games could really be used to compare to Manning's first 5.

Manning has taken us on at an unusual point in the cycle.

[bexhill reds]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And we averaged how many goals per game NP’s last five games?

This is the ongoing problem and was my biggest frustration with NPs latter tactics, I felt the front 3 were too far apart on the pitch and since Martin was released and Semenyo sold, we have not had player who can hold the ball up to wait for support, Conway, Wells and to a lesser extent Bell are finishers.

Whilst that resource issue remains this is the problem that LM has to solve.

[W-S-M Seagull]

56 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Pearson won two out of his first five. He was in the stands for Boro and didn't  take charge until after that game.

This is the quote from the club on 22 February "The Robins have agreed a deal until the end of May with the 57-year-old, who will observe Tuesday evening’s Sky Bet Championship match against Middlesbrough before officially taking charge ahead of Saturday’s trip to Swansea City."

We also lost six games, not seven, prior to that Boro win under Simpson/Downing.

After that second win under Pearson we drew three and lost seven of the final 10 games of that season.

But those early games were write offs. The squad was a train wreck and it was mid pandemic and messy. I'd never use those results to either beat Pearson or compare him to Manning.

Nah I credit him with the Boro win. Met the players in the hotel. Believe he was also in the dressing room. We won because the players wanted to impress him and his appointment has given them a lift. 

I was using it as an example of a manager coming in and immediately getting results. 

It was 7 defeats mate. 

 

 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

To add a bit more context, other managers have taken over clubs and despite them not knowing the squad, have delivered instant results and improvements in performances. 

Pearson for example came in and won 3 out of his first 5 (we had lost the previous 7 before he came in) 

Pearson won 2 of his first 5 games and didn't win a game at Ashton Gate until his 16th (sixteenth) in charge. 

"Delivered instant results"  

[italian dave]

37 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Thing is those 5 games were played under very different circumstances as well. The mini injury crisis means there's a chunky asterisk next to the figures from those games imo.

Tbh I'm not sure which set of 5 Pearson games could really be used to compare to Manning's first 5.

Manning has taken us on at an unusual point in the cycle.

Sure, and I’m really not into those sort of comparisons of NP and LM anyway. There’s always ifs and buts.

Mine was a fairly off the cuff response to @W-S-M Seagull’ s response to me. To my perception of positives in our approach. Which WSM questioned by pointing to goals per game. And turns out that’s up 25% too

But, for the record, I don’t think measure like that over a random 5 game period mean much. Which is kind of the point I’m making, and why it’s foolish to be judging LM on that right now - as WSM clearly is, 

And, we’ve still got an injury crisis, haven’t we?! 

Edited December 12, 2023 by italian dave

[transfer reader]

1 hour ago, bexhill reds said:

I was highlighting extremes and not necessarily a single specific view, which is the same as the negative coaching drone point. Sorry you missed that nuance, life is too short to forensically examine everything thread to quote specifics.

Perhaps my line should be that some are very excited about what is on paper a very inexperienced manager (and for avoidance of doubt and pedantry) I am not referring to his extensive youth and U21 experience, whereas others are totally underwhelmed and need some convincing. 
 

I’m erring towards the latter and as a have said previously I’m open minded enough to accept that I might be wrong with my view, but the driver for that change will be in results and points, and not possession stats or new coaching ideas.

 

It's not about not getting nuance, it's about calling out the hyperbole that is used to further divide people who have opposing views.

Discourse would be a lot better without the bullshit exaggerating what people's views are or putting words in their mouths.

[italian dave]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s some boring old data:

Its still a very small sample, 5 games, but it will be good to look at in another 5/6 games, and see if importantly results have picked up and a bit less importantly whether we can see some real trends that highlight why results have picked up (or not).

Not saying data should be the be-all and end-all, but to take your clutching at straws point…we’ve actually had less shots under LM.  “Funny old game Saint”!!!

Much of the numbers are actually relatively close up or down, apart from passing and pressing….leading to a very early gut feel that regardless of how we play, the end results might be quite similar.

I’d class that as having a bunch of players that are adaptable to playing style, but of an ability level that doesn’t make too much difference.

I’m hoping that this is just because the sample size is small and that by the time we get past Millwall on Jan 1st with a cup game to come we know a lot more about what works and what doesn’t.

How many of those (some of which seem quite counter-intuitive) are down to excluding pens and ogs? Both of which have been fairly significant features of LMs start. 

[Phileas Fogg]

If only we were able to have Manning as head coach, Pearson as some sort of hybrid DoF/Tinnion role/bridge between playing operation and board plus Richard Gould in place of JL.

That would be a real recipe for success I think and would work as Pearson doesn’t have the insecurity to tread on Manning’s toes.

Obviously not possible, but such a shame to have the knowledge that we’ve had all 3 of those components at the club over the last 18 months.

That’s exactly the sort of vision that clubs who’ve leapfrogged us in recent years may have. We’re so stuck in our ways and with a board who seems threatened by trickier personalities that it would clearly never happen. 

[johnbytheriver]

I think we should get rid of LM and bring in Wayne Rooney!

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Nah I credit him with the Boro win. Met the players in the hotel. Believe he was also in the dressing room. We won because the players wanted to impress him and his appointment has given them a lift. 

I was using it as an example of a manager coming in and immediately getting results. 

It was 7 defeats mate. 

If you want to discredit your own arguments and opinions by basing them on a false history then I guess that's your prerogative.

However, I think you do yourself and Pearson a disservice by including games that Pearson didn't manage and cup games in a conversation about league performance.

[TheSpaniard]

2 hours ago, bexhill reds said:

I was highlighting extremes and not necessarily a single specific view, which is the same as the negative coaching drone point. Sorry you missed that nuance, life is too short to forensically examine everything thread to quote specifics.

Perhaps my line should be that some are very excited about what is on paper a very inexperienced manager (and for avoidance of doubt and pedantry) I am not referring to his extensive youth and U21 experience, whereas others are totally underwhelmed and need some convincing. 
 

I’m erring towards the latter and as a have said previously I’m open minded enough to accept that I might be wrong with my view, but the driver for that change will be in results and points, and not possession stats or new coaching ideas.

 

I wonder where Ipswich would be if they decided to hire Steve Bruce rather than McKenna. 

[bexhill reds]

13 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

It's not about not getting nuance, it's about calling out the hyperbole that is used to further divide people who have opposing views.

Discourse would be a lot better without the bullshit exaggerating what people's views are or putting words in their mouths.

Whatever, you don’t like my posts or my view then block or ignore, or if it amuses you then just be self-appointed hyperbole police, you’ll find plenty of content to be very busy on here.

Discourse is caused by disagreement and alternative views some arguably more polarised than others, but at no stage have I put words into people’s mouths nor sought to get the pitchfork and flaming torch brigade out. The majority of posters on the forum are intelligent enough to form their own opinions.

So perhaps let’s just park our discourse here, we clearly will never agree on this particular topic, and I won’t change my how or what I post just because you feel it is hyperbole.

 

[transfer reader]

4 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

Whatever, you don’t like my posts or my view then block or ignore, or if it amuses you then just be self-appointed hyperbole police, you’ll find plenty of content to be very busy on here.

Discourse is caused by disagreement and alternative views some arguably more polarised than others, but at no stage have I put words into people’s mouths nor sought to get the pitchfork and flaming torch brigade out. The majority of posters on the forum are intelligent enough to form their own opinions.

So perhaps let’s just park our discourse here, we clearly will never agree on this particular topic, and I won’t change my how or what I post just because you feel it is hyperbole.

 

I didnt say you put words in other people's mouths, that was an example of something else that is unhelpful for discourse and good discussions about things.

I'm happy to engage with people who have a differing view, however it seems you are not?

And this has all stemmed from me simply asking you to back up a claim you made.

I wonder why that's upset you so much.

You say views are polarised, that in part comes from posts like yours that exaggerate people's views and misrepresents them.

You are contributing towards how polarised people get by doing that.

Edited December 12, 2023 by transfer reader

[bexhill reds]

14 minutes ago, TheSpaniard said:

I wonder where Ipswich would be if they decided to hire Steve Bruce rather than McKenna. 

Quite, but for every success story of the bright new thing there is the equivalent failure. There is another thread on here about Holden, a bright new thing with ideas that ultimately did not work out.

Let’s just see what the collective view is when we kick off against Millwall.

[W-S-M Seagull]

33 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

If you want to discredit your own arguments and opinions by basing them on a false history then I guess that's your prerogative.

However, I think you do yourself and Pearson a disservice by including games that Pearson didn't manage and cup games in a conversation about league performance.

You're literally attempting to rewrite history. I know exactly the role Pearson played in that win against Boro. 

But even if we don't include the Boro game which would be ridiculous, but lets say we don't, it's then 2 wins and a draw from his first 5 games. Better than Manning and with a far inferior team. However this isn't about NP Vs LM. I used Pearson as an example that many managers go into clubs and deliver results instantly. 

Isn't an fa cup 5th round against Sheffield Utd a competitive game? 

[bexhill reds]

14 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

I didnt say you put words in other people's mouths, that was an example of something else that is unhelpful for discourse and good discussions about things.

I'm happy to engage with people who have a differing view, however it seems you are not?

And this has all stemmed from me simply asking you to back up a claim you made.

I wonder why that's upset you so much.

Not upset, just bored. There are polarised views about Manning on the various match day and off match day posts. I’ve generalised these and you’ve taken issue to that. You’ve suggested I’ve dabbled with hyperbole, fair enough,  you are entitled to your view, and if you don’t like what I post or the manner in which I post it then ignore it.
 

I’m more than happy to engage with anyone this is why I go on the forum to chat about the club and matches with fellow supporters, but on this topic we clearly are not going to agree at this stage so why continue further? 
 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by bexhill reds