The Gaffer speaks after tonight’s defeat

[Numero Uno]

23 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And we did make progress in the first four of those eight. What happened? 

We spent way above our means to achieve that “progress”, with a crazy policy that selling a player a season for £10-20m was a given and would balance the books, along came Covid and that ****** that cunning plan.

Nige picked up the pieces, kept our status in the second tier when we didn’t have a pot to piss in then got sacked as FFFP was easing. So now we SHOULD be able to release the shackles a bit and it’s down to the hierarchy to produce.

Get the next couple of windows right and a plan might materialise. Get them wrong and we might just be carrying some non-descript third tier player on our shoulders down the Gloucester Rd after a late winner at the Meccanno in a league derby.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Yeah, wouldn’t disagree with much of that Pete. I was thinking more bigger picture, longer term: just found it interesting that it co-incides with that Joe Williams interview.

Expecting the players to figure it out is a massive step change in English football, so we certainly ain’t going to do it overnight. But it’s a direction of travel that has some merit.

I don’t entirely agree about going three at the back: that made some sense, I felt, albeit never having seen Mccrorie play before. And Wells/Conway up front too. But 100% taking TGH off was odd, and that changed definitely felt like we were more trying to defend a lead than chase a game. 

I think there is a danger of us fans latching onto more “soundbites” like players solving problems and then perhaps using that as excuses.  That can only be taken so far (as per your second para), especially in a mid-table ability team.

+++++

One thing I did pick up last night that I’d forgotten until now @petehinton was that even when we went to a back three and had the opportunity to TC / NW together we still went TC left, JK right, so we didn’t really pair them.

After the game LM mentioned that the staff had mentioned TC had played as a no10 before, so maybe he is already questioning his one-up-top way of playing???

I said a few weeks ago that if you’re gonna go TC / JK up top pretty much, and go 442 w/o the ball (which we didn’t do yesterday bizarrely), then why not play 2 proper forwards and drop JK back into a more conventional midfielder.  With Sykes injured you could even play Knight as the Brownhill 17-18 inverted right midfielder.

I sense Wells starting with TC off of him on Tuesday!

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, red panda said:

It's easy to forget that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress.  We've spent the last 40 years yo-yoing between the second and third tiers (or lower), spending more time in the third tier than the second, and sometimes surviving only a single year when we did manage to get into the second tier

That progress has needed £200m of investment over 25 years. Other clubs have spent less, taken less time and achieved more on far less turnover.

[Mr Popodopolous]

SL said this, found it from post Holden.

A lot of leeway is not what transpired one iota. Like I say the downsizing in hindsight was inevitable unless we had gone all-in on promotion or bust in 2021-22.

We could have gambled to the max and hoped.

Add £10-15m to the wage bill for 2020-21, a few million in amortisation, loan fees and put it all on red.

Edited January 14 by Mr Popodopolous

[Natchfever]

7 minutes ago, red panda said:

It's easy to forget that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress.  We've spent the last 40 years yo-yoing between the second and third tiers (or lower), spending more time in the third tier than the second, and sometimes surviving only a single year when we did manage to get into the second tier

Tell that to Bournemouth and Brentford.

[Son of Fred]

59 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

I genuinely think it has already. We will finish between 12th-15th this season - which I think is completely unacceptable considering what Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee keep spouting on about 

8 seasons back in this league isn’t it? And it’s delivered absolutely no progress on the pitch whatsover

I know I’m a negative poster, and I know some times I can let my emotions rule my gob and I can spout some bollocks - but the way senior people at this club has behaved this season has absolutely infuriated me to the point that I genuinely don’t give a shit if it implodes and we tumble down to League 1 (please don’t get “I want” and “I don’t care “ mixed up. I don’t want us to go to League 1, I simply wouldn’t give a shit if we did)

They treat the fans like plebs. The fans of this club deserve so much better then what they have been given 

 

Excellent 'from the heart' post..

As yourself dropping down is not something I want!

Should it happen?? - my feelings would be that the clowns at the top have gotten what they deserve - I'm sure what they would have to say in such an unfortunate event would be rather interesting & I'll be 'all ears!!!

[italian dave]

29 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Tell that to Bournemouth and Brentford.

Bournemouth cheated. Try telling it to Reading, Wigan, Derby......

Lots of ways of defining 'progress': fact is that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress. Maybe not as much as we'd all have liked, but it's better than the 30 years before that!

[italian dave]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think there is a danger of us fans latching onto more “soundbites” like players solving problems and then perhaps using that as excuses.  That can only be taken so far (as per your second para), especially in a mid-table ability team.

+++++

One thing I did pick up last night that I’d forgotten until now @petehinton was that even when we went to a back three and had the opportunity to TC / NW together we still went TC left, JK right, so we didn’t really pair them.

After the game LM mentioned that the staff had mentioned TC had played as a no10 before, so maybe he is already questioning his one-up-top way of playing???

I said a few weeks ago that if you’re gonna go TC / JK up top pretty much, and go 442 w/o the ball (which we didn’t do yesterday bizarrely), then why not play 2 proper forwards and drop JK back into a more conventional midfielder.  With Sykes injured you could even play Knight as the Brownhill 17-18 inverted right midfielder.

I sense Wells starting with TC off of him on Tuesday!

Didn't really pair them.....plus, gave them the grand total of 14 minutes together!!

[Natchfever]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Bournemouth cheated. Try telling it to Reading, Wigan, Derby......

Lots of ways of defining 'progress': fact is that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress. Maybe not as much as we'd all have liked, but it's better than the 30 years before that!

Always those who have failed but in terms of league positions over the last 20 odd years id take Wigan Derby and Reading over us and I wouldnt bet against them passing us again.

Stagnating isnt progress. Watching teams come up and go past us isnt progress. Being now unable to sign players isnt progress.

I could go on.

[Numero Uno]

20 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Bournemouth cheated. Try telling it to Reading, Wigan, Derby......

Lots of ways of defining 'progress': fact is that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress. Maybe not as much as we'd all have liked, but it's better than the 30 years before that!

Circa 15 of those 30 years with the Lansdown’s in charge? On that basis we only need another seven seasons plodding along at this level and we should be in a position to make the next move!!

[Merrick's Marvels]

33 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Bournemouth cheated. Try telling it to Reading, Wigan, Derby......

Lots of ways of defining 'progress': fact is that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress. Maybe not as much as we'd all have liked, but it's better than the 30 years before that!

It isn't when the owner himself states he wants to get to the Premier League.

And then repeatedly fails to deliver it - more than 20 years and counting.

The owner has never said "8 years in the Champonship is what we want".

Imagine spending hundreds of millions only to achieve that!

Oh wait... he has!

Edited January 14 by Merrick's Marvels

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

It isn't when the owner himself states he wants to get to the Premier League.

And then repeatedly fails to deliver it - more than 20 years and counting.

The owner has never said "8 years in the Champonship is what we want".

Imagine spending hundreds of millions only to achieve that!

Oh wait... he has!

People do cite £200-250m but that is including infrastructure also and over 20 years.

By which I mean, it's big...but I dunno had he splurged a bit in Janaury 2008 perhaps we go up there and then.

Had he rolled the dice a bit in January 2019- I believe we were a bit short in central midfield and up front, ie one in each position maybe we get into the playoffs and who knows.

Had he backed NP a bit more in the summer etc..not spent quite so much on Lee Johnson and Mark Ashton era then maybe NP would have been.

[lenred]

56 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Bournemouth cheated. Try telling it to Reading, Wigan, Derby......

Lots of ways of defining 'progress': fact is that 8 seasons in the Championship is progress. Maybe not as much as we'd all have liked, but it's better than the 30 years before that!

Is that the teams that have been in the Prem, Europe, winning FA Cups, FA Cup semis etc?  Yeah.  I’ll take that tbh.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bournemouth cheated that is unequivocal. Cheated in a time it was much easier to do so and for most sanctions were less.

The rest it's an interesting trade-off..they've had some highs but some horrendous lows after the event. Would we take the highs in exchange got it going belly up a decade to 15 years on.

See also Portsmouth and even to a degree Bolton.

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Natchfever said:

Always those who have failed but in terms of league positions over the last 20 odd years id take Wigan Derby and Reading over us and I wouldnt bet against them passing us again.

Stagnating isnt progress. Watching teams come up and go past us isnt progress. Being now unable to sign players isnt progress.

I could go on.

Like I said, there’s lots of ways of defining progress, and you haven’t explained how you define it. But if it’s about league status then I’m struggling to see how you describe where we are now compared to where we were in 1983 as not being progress.

Teams have gone up and past us, teams have gone down the other way to below us. Theres no doubt we are one of the most cautious and boring, stable, call it what you will.

[italian dave]

54 minutes ago, lenred said:

Is that the teams that have been in the Prem, Europe, winning FA Cups, FA Cup semis etc?  Yeah.  I’ll take that tbh.  

You’d honestly rather be Reading right now??

[italian dave]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bournemouth cheated that is unequivocal. Cheated in a time it was much easier to do so and for most sanctions were less.

The rest it's an interesting trade-off..they've had some highs but some horrendous lows after the event. Would we take the highs in exchange got it going belly up a decade to 15 years on.

See also Portsmouth and even to a degree Bolton.

Exactly. And precisely the dilemma.

And, of course, if you go back just a little further, we were in the position that we achieved the top flight, even stayed there for a while, and then went from that high to an all time low…..in the course of a couple of years. 

I’m in two minds. Yes, probably worth the trade off. The highs were great, we got away with the low, we actually had some good times in the fourth division.

But I’m very conscious that I’m saying that with the benefit of hindsight, knowing that we got through it. I’m not sure I felt that way when we went to Newport in 1982. 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

It isn't when the owner himself states he wants to get to the Premier League.

And then repeatedly fails to deliver it - more than 20 years and counting.

The owner has never said "8 years in the Champonship is what we want".

Imagine spending hundreds of millions only to achieve that!

Oh wait... he has!

As I said, not as fast as we’d all have liked. All including SL I’ve no doubt.

The rest of us have the consolation that it wasn’t our money

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Natchfever said:

Always those who have failed but in terms of league positions over the last 20 odd years id take Wigan Derby and Reading over us and I wouldnt bet against them passing us again.

Stagnating isnt progress. Watching teams come up and go past us isnt progress. Being now unable to sign players isnt progress.

I could go on.

I know it’s always the same failing teams mentioned. That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. Because it’s always the same teams who’ve succeeded that are mentioned.

So, every time anyone says Bournemouth or Brentford, it’s reasonable to mention Reading or Wigan. 

[Natchfever]

2 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I know it’s always the same failing teams mentioned. That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. Because it’s always the same teams who’ve succeeded that are mentioned.

So, every time anyone says Bournemouth or Brentford, it’s reasonable to mention Reading or Wigan. 

I get that Dave. 

I just disagree that we are progressing.

Havent done so in maybe 6 years imo.

We have a lot of advantages over teams who breeze past us.

Our problem is the owner, I honestly believe that.

[lenred]

21 minutes ago, italian dave said:

You’d honestly rather be Reading right now??

I’d rather have had their last 25 years, yes.  

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

I get that Dave. 

I just disagree that we are progressing.

Havent done so in maybe 6 years imo.

We have a lot of advantages over teams who breeze past us.

Our problem is the owner, I honestly believe that.

Make that 5 years, and I’d agree!!

SLs tenure overall and I think we’re in a better position.

And I’d also agree that it’s about the owner. SL has always struck me as being fundamentally a cautious sort of person. Realistic, steady eddy, risk taker but only within strict limits, that kind of thing. And the fact that we’ve largely yo-yo’d between top half third tier and lower half second tier probably reflects that.

I think you can see that in what’s happened the past 5 years. We took the financial risks and we went for broke, didn’t quite make it in 2018/2019, whereas others with a greater appetite for risk might have thrown even more at it for a final boom or bust year, SL started to worry about FFP…and then along came Covid to make it even worse! So his caution got the better of him.

Whether you define that as a ‘problem’ I suppose depends on your own nature.

If I’m honest, mine is probably more like SL, so I look on it that we’ve stabilised our position without ever getting into serious relegation trouble, and can move on now from that stable base.

I get that others - like you maybe - would have taken the boom or bust risk. And you might have got away with it. But you also have to acknowledge that the ‘bust’ risk was very real. 

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, lenred said:

I’d rather have had their last 25 years, yes.  

And be facing the very real risk of bankruptcy now? And bankruptcy, not administration. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

6 hours ago, italian dave said:

 

Teach the players how to think for themselves and to adapt themselves to events on the pitch.

 

SO'D was keen on all that. I remember sitting in the Atyeo, about 11 years ago now, watching as JET and two others tried to take a throw in and keep the ball and making a complete and utterly tortuous mess of it. Against someone or other probably in National League South now. As L2 beckoned.

6 hours ago, italian dave said:

 

There's a limit to what any manager can do from the touchline once the half has started.

Nobody told Cotts this. I remember about a year or so later, sitting in the Williams, watching Cotts fully animated on the touchline as we took another throw in, against some other L1 dullards, the list of instructions and information flowing fully and openly from Cotts mouth. A torrent of instruction. He left no stone un-turnt, Cotts; he won't die thinking: if only I'd told them how to take throw ins rather than work it out for their-selves, won't Stevie Cotts.

Edited January 14 by Bristol Oil Services