The Gaffer speaks after tonight’s defeat

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I don’t think anybody did. The nuance here is that the way we play has fundamentally changed in the last three games - the stats in terms of possession and passes alone evidence that. 
 

Again, it’s massive credit to LM that he has shifted the way we play. But comments such as “needing to get ideas across” or “it’s taken this long for the players to get it” arent the gotcha people think it is. If we’d won the last three playing a possession heavy approach then that’s totally valid. But we’re playing a different way. And that is down to LM tweaking it - but it is wholly reasonable to say he got it wrong to start with and is getting it right now chiefly by changing the way he wanted us to play as opposed to “taking time to get ideas across”.

I don’t care how he’s got to this point - but he’s got there and long may it continue. But things ain’t as black and white as the “taking time to impose ideas” argument. He’s adapted - and that was my main concern about him from the first games. 

As you know Silv, I tend to agree with you.  We are not playing like we were (with the ball).

Those patient passing sequences that we positively spun as - rotating the opposition around, are becoming less and less.  The first three columns after the game number show that trend.

Of course, that could be familiarity, as other above have responded.  I’m sure there an element of that too.

But, my gut feel is that if it was just getting used to things, why couldn’t we resort to “passing it for passings sake” against Sunderland, or Hull when we were 1-0 up, etc.

So, like you, I lean towards your view that there been a little tweak / adaptation on emphasis.  Let’s not forget he told us he’s not rigid.  Let’s not forget he said the players are “coachable”.  So why wouldn’t we (as fans) embrace a notion that he’s tweaked something?

++++++

The 3 left-most columns (above) are related to pressing.  As @Harry and I have both posted at some length, our views (although expressed slightly differently) highlight some good execution in the press.  But it is not “high press” (worsening trend), but an efficient, effective press.  High turnovers are now well up, and we are starting to see shots off the end of it too.  

[Engvall’s Splinter]

6 hours ago, KingHillRed said:

How you feeling a few more games in Jack?

Are you planning any January investment, Jon?

[Silvio Dante]

9 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I don’t have an issue with the thread being resurrected, because I think (and it’s not about results), the Blackburn game was a real line in the sand moment.

You had senior pros slating things on Robins TV, you had a manager looking defeated post match, you had bizarre decisions like taking off Sykes and Knight. If it looked chaotic and sliding towards bad things, it’s because it had every indication that’s what it was. And had that been followed up against Sunderland with a defeat, then trouble may have been ahead.

Whether LM decided he didn’t have the players for the heavy possession game, whether the slightly gung ho second half that nearly yielded results changed his mind who knows. But since about 50 minutes in vs Blackburn we’ve played differently - we’ve played with intent, desire, purpose. Our possession stats have gone down markedly and we’re back below 50%. We’re doing over 100 passes less per game. The “Swansea” trajectory isn’t being followed - a trajectory appropriate to the players is.

There was a quote I highlighted earlier in this thread where LM expressed a view that maybe he’d overloaded the players. I viewed it post match as him trying to be a bit too clever. In hindsight, and considering the stylistic tweaks since, it may well have been him saying he’d got it wrong and acknowledging that the overloading to his initial preferred style hadn’t worked.

@sh1t_ref_again - in respect of the “hmmm” here please look at LMs presser from today, particularly in respect of the last paragraph above at about 8 minutes in. That might answer your confusion.

[sh1t_ref_again]

12 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

@sh1t_ref_again - in respect of the “hmmm” here please look at LMs presser from today, particularly in respect of the last paragraph above at about 8 minutes in. That might answer your confusion.

I think a lot of what you said is down to your (and others) interpretation, it may well be that we are now seeing more or what LM wants or work in progress towards, as opposed to the 1st games we did not as the players did not carry out the game plan, as maybe he over loaded the players of what he is trying to achieve (maybe taking some pressure off players and saying my fault). In fact if you look at the same interview at around 15 minutes he talks about clarity to the players of what they are trying to achieve and there understanding of the shape and how to play it.

Of course the amount of possession you have will have will depend upon who you are playing and if you are winning or loosing. Take the watford game, we were around 50:50 at half time, but surrendered possession 2nd half as we did not chase the game which ended with us having 41%. It was also interesting, listening to AW after the Watford game about how much the players are enjoying it and moving to a much more possession based way of playing.

Think senior players slating things on Robins TV is also a bit OTT

Reality is probable a bit of all things, players getting use to what ML wants, ML adjusting pace of change or what's required, other teams impacting what we do long with the status of the game

[ROKERITE]

On 28/12/2023 at 10:01, italian dave said:

Similar question to the above: how are you feeling now @ROKERITE? 
Interesting….or one of the horrors? 

I apologise for the delay but this is the first time I've looked at OTIB since your post.

I don't think Manning is a horror choice but I'd say he isn't very interesting either. It is the fashion (and there shouldn't be fashions in football) to go for a young  up and coming coach rather than an old head. Of course being young doesn't necessarily make them up and coming. I shared the general disappointment at Pearson's dismissal and believe Manning is not an improvement.

Kieran McKenna's success till now at Ipswich Town has led many owners to believe they can find another McKenna; which is great news for young coaches. But there was as much to to make potential new employers wary of choosing Manning as attracted by him. He'd had one very good season with MK Dons though it didn't end in success. But the next season when he had to rebuild his squad to a certain extent his team didn't just fall away, they were deep in relegation trouble when he was sacked. Oxford United were only fifteen matches, albeit  producing thirty-two points, into this season when he was poached by Bristol City. So he had about two seasons of matches all at a level down from The Championship and, though there'd been impressive results, had shown an inability to adapt when it was required for his second season at MK Dons.

We've made the same move by replacing Mowbray with Beale. I hope both Manning and Beale can prove they are worthy of their employers' faith but I'd rather have Pearson and Mowbray.

[petehinton]

One thing that strikes me from yesterdays interview, and mentioned this to @Davefevs, is that he’s talking like a man that was powerless to make any change to counter the changes that Preston made. 
 

Made the point in the MTD, but him saying (paraphrased) “they didn’t do anything special, they just went direct” is a bit alarming to me. Basically shrugging off that it’s not a ‘good’ change up because it’s not a tactical masterclass type switch up.

As a few have said, Watford is going to be really intriguing as we’ll be able to see the real make up of Ismael, who’ll no doubt have rewatched our mauling of them many times to see what can be done to counter that. And how can our Liam get the side to react to these changes?

 

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, petehinton said:

One thing that strikes me from yesterdays interview, and mentioned this to @Davefevs, is that he’s talking like a man that was powerless to make any change to counter the changes that Preston made. 
 

Made the point in the MTD, but him saying (paraphrased) “they didn’t do anything special, they just went direct” is a bit alarming to me. Basically shrugging off that it’s not a ‘good’ change up because it’s not a tactical masterclass type switch up.

As a few have said, Watford is going to be really intriguing as we’ll be able to see the real make up of Ismael, who’ll no doubt have rewatched our mauling of them many times to see what can be done to counter that. And how can our Liam get the side to react to these changes?

 

I’m not sure Watford is the game Manning would pick to end the current three match slump without a goal. They will be up for it, have very good individual players and previous for big wins away from home. Will be interesting Saturday because another home defeat will piss people right off.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Preston's manager found a way to win yesterday. That involved doing things differently in the 2nd half.

Our manager stuck by his "principles". It involved doing things the same way for much of the game and when he did change, it made things worse. Brilliant.

It isn't about sticking to principles comexwhat may. It's about getting results.

The only teams capable of playing the same way over and over are the elite teams who have the best players.

That's not us, at this level. Never will be. Maybe in Division 3 but we don't want to be going back there.

We're always going to have to compromise to find a way to win when things aren't going to plan

When explaining what Preston did - "they put 3 up front,  went long, got flick ons and the bits and pieces" - Manning made it sound like such tactics are beneath him.

Which is bollox.

He needs to find a way to win that doesn't involve doing the same thing over and over while he stands there going on about principles.

[Robbored]

One obvious deficiency that I and I’m sure others see as well is the lack of CF to bully and put pressure on the opponents CBs. City can get into some excellent wide positions but essentially only have the option of playing a low cross which is defended easily too often.

The winter window is a notoriously difficult time to do business and I wouldn’t be surprised if the clubs business is already done.

However……. 

 

[Sheltons Army]

14 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Preston's manager found a way to win yesterday. That involved doing things differently in the 2nd half.

Our manager stuck by his "principles". It involved doing things the same way for much of the game and when he did change, it made things worse. Brilliant.

It isn't about sticking to principles comexwhat may. It's about getting results.

The only teams capable of playing the same way over and over are the elite teams who have the best players.

That's not us, at this level. Never will be. Maybe in Division 3 but we don't want to be going back there.

We're always going to have to compromise to find a way to win when things aren't going to plan

When explaining what Preston did - "they put 3 up front,  went long, got flick ons and the bits and pieces" - Manning made it sound like such tactics are beneath him.

Which is bollox.

He needs to find a way to win that doesn't involve doing the same thing over and over while he stands there going on about principles.

Good and interesting post MM

Ive made the point recently , and the new in vogue of young tracksuit coaches , undoubtedly with good coaching theory and backgrounds , are likely to make or try to make their sides comfortable in possession , religiously following core principles etc etc

But can they translate that or I’d say add to that with those other ingredients that make your team a winning team , a consistently winning team

Those little tweaks , moments of man management , Ferguson moments if you like , ruthless even ,as basic as at h/t telling Keane to nail an influential player in the first ten mins of 2nd half

This isn’t directed at LM in particular but the whole in vogue head coach , young , tracksuit coach and the other skills that others bring as Managers

[The Swan and Cemetery]

14 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

The only teams capable of playing the same way over and over are the elite teams who have the best players.

That's not us, at this level. Never will be. Maybe in Division 3 but we don't want to be going back there.

The argument will be that if we’re pragmatic game to game, we won’t instil the style etc consistently that will eventually make us successful. Think LM’s MK stint may turn out to be instructive, with players who were better (Twine + some decent loans) they succeeded, when Twine left and loans returned, they were hopeless the following season. As you point out, this is problematic:

Building the quality required at Championship level to have ‘one way’ is vastly different (/more expensive) than in League 1. If we knew promotion was guaranteed next season, we’d probably all take 18th this season… but all will have happened is finishing 18th, which is a difficult sell “honest guv, we’re teetering on the brink of Prem glory” -  how do you give supporters confidence that we are on the right track, when in the moment it doesn’t feel like that?

All indicates that for LM to succeed we need very different (and more expensive) players, Not clear that the Lansdowns/Tinnion have clocked that success requires a number of things to come together in a planned way, vs constant flip-flopping/whack-a-mole and crossing of fingers. What happens before the end of January may contradict this view (but will also contradict everything they’ve previously said). Was ECB definitively Gould’s dream job vs he realised success was unlikely at City?

[JP Hampton]

On 13/12/2023 at 19:32, Davefevs said:

I said from the start, he’s talking about HIS principles, HIS ways, HIS style, etc….he's on autopilot to a degree, talking about his favourite subject.

I think you’re right and is the crux of the problem, trying to apply his set of principles and his game plan onto players rather than the other way round. 

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, ROKERITE said:

We've made the same move by replacing Mowbray with Beale. I hope both Manning and Beale can prove they are worthy of their employers' faith but I'd rather have Pearson and Mowbray.

Thanks for your response.

I enjoyed watching Sunderland under Mowbray. Lots of youthful enterprise and energy, attacking at pace, great fun to watch. I'm as big a fan of Mowbray as I am of Pearson so I may be a tad biased!

Early days and you will know better than me but under Beale that style doesn't seem to be his preference. I also wonder whether Pritchard's anger when subbed suggests some underlying conflict but that's just speculation on my part.

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, JP Hampton said:

I think you’re right and is the crux of the problem, trying to apply his set of principles and his game plan onto players rather than the other way round. 

A case of Pearson as a pragmatist and Manning as an idealist perhaps.

Nigel knew the limitations of his squad, Liam doesn't yet seem to have seen that.

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I’m not sure Watford is the game Manning would pick to end the current three match slump without a goal. They will be up for it, have very good individual players and previous for big wins away from home. Will be interesting Saturday because another home defeat will piss people right off.

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

[Son of Fred]

On 12/12/2023 at 22:28, Silvio Dante said:

I forget who said that football is a simple game over complicated by idiots. That quote kind of resonates currently for some reason

Brian Clough possibly??

[JP Hampton]

14 minutes ago, chinapig said:

A case of Pearson as a pragmatist and Manning as an idealist perhaps.

Nigel knew the limitations of his squad, Liam doesn't yet seem to have seen that.

Yes I think if anything can be said of Pearson, it’s that he played to his players strengths and it took him a while to discover what those were.  

[Son of Fred]

On 12/12/2023 at 22:32, BCFCGav said:

It feels like everyone’s losing at the moment, he was clearly onto something at Oxford. May well have had a League title on his CV come May. Poor bloke looks downbeat.

Said this a while ago, I felt that if the bloke could hit 'rewind' I'm sure he would- and that mind set is very bad news for us!

[Lew-T]

13 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

Might suit us.

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

One thing that strikes me from yesterdays interview, and mentioned this to @Davefevs, is that he’s talking like a man that was powerless to make any change to counter the changes that Preston made. 
 

Made the point in the MTD, but him saying (paraphrased) “they didn’t do anything special, they just went direct” is a bit alarming to me. Basically shrugging off that it’s not a ‘good’ change up because it’s not a tactical masterclass type switch up.

As a few have said, Watford is going to be really intriguing as we’ll be able to see the real make up of Ismael, who’ll no doubt have rewatched our mauling of them many times to see what can be done to counter that. And how can our Liam get the side to react to these changes?

 

It was also what I would call a long-ball/set-piece pitch. It was not easy moving the ball quickly along the ground (unless you are technically excellent like Manchester City etc). My observation on that is did we have the players to change it? McCrorie, in a re-jigged back line, possibly only had 20-30 minutes in him. Knight-Lebel has hardly played. Could we go more direct? Not obviously so if you look at the bench. 

Also, all coaches would expect their team to be able to deal with the first goal (and the second really). But Preston did have more menace after the changes. Max's save from Keane must have been close to his best of the season.

[firstdivision]

6 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Might suit us.

Let's hope so. It'll be lively on here if we lose five in a row. (Mind you, it'll be lively on here if we don't win five in a row.)

 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

One obvious deficiency that I and I’m sure others see as well is the lack of CF to bully and put pressure on the opponents CBs. City can get into some excellent wide positions but essentially only have the option of playing a low cross which is defended easily too often.

The winter window is a notoriously difficult time to do business and I wouldn’t be surprised if the clubs business is already done.

However……. 

 

Twice today I’ve agreed with you

Not only crosses, but the pass through the middle too. We’ve no-one who can hassle and bully defenders as they chase down that pass, and take two defenders with them to do it, freeing up space for someone else to run into.

We miss Fam. 

[The Bard]

29 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Brian Clough possibly??

Shankly

[Loosey Boy]

35 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

Makes next Saturday absolutely huge as the run of games after, look to be really tough…..

Also, by the time we go to Coventry, we will know the squad we have for the rest of the season too

[And Its Smith]

2 hours ago, petehinton said:

One thing that strikes me from yesterdays interview, and mentioned this to @Davefevs, is that he’s talking like a man that was powerless to make any change to counter the changes that Preston made. 
 

Made the point in the MTD, but him saying (paraphrased) “they didn’t do anything special, they just went direct” is a bit alarming to me. Basically shrugging off that it’s not a ‘good’ change up because it’s not a tactical masterclass type switch up.

As a few have said, Watford is going to be really intriguing as we’ll be able to see the real make up of Ismael, who’ll no doubt have rewatched our mauling of them many times to see what can be done to counter that. And how can our Liam get the side to react to these changes?

 

Did he not mean ‘they didn’t do anything special and yet we couldn’t deal with it’?

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, ROKERITE said:

I apologise for the delay but this is the first time I've looked at OTIB since your post.

I don't think Manning is a horror choice but I'd say he isn't very interesting either. It is the fashion (and there shouldn't be fashions in football) to go for a young  up and coming coach rather than an old head. Of course being young doesn't necessarily make them up and coming. I shared the general disappointment at Pearson's dismissal and believe Manning is not an improvement.

Kieran McKenna's success till now at Ipswich Town has led many owners to believe they can find another McKenna; which is great news for young coaches. But there was as much to to make potential new employers wary of choosing Manning as attracted by him. He'd had one very good season with MK Dons though it didn't end in success. But the next season when he had to rebuild his squad to a certain extent his team didn't just fall away, they were deep in relegation trouble when he was sacked. Oxford United were only fifteen matches, albeit  producing thirty-two points, into this season when he was poached by Bristol City. So he had about two seasons of matches all at a level down from The Championship and, though there'd been impressive results, had shown an inability to adapt when it was required for his second season at MK Dons.

We've made the same move by replacing Mowbray with Beale. I hope both Manning and Beale can prove they are worthy of their employers' faith but I'd rather have Pearson and Mowbray.

Thanks. And no need to apologise: there's no reason for you to looking at OTIB more than once a month!!

I was interested partly because we bumped into some of your fellow Rokerites at a service station on our way to respective matches, as you do! It was not long before Beale's appointment and Will Still had been linked. Interestingly, another in the 'young and upcoming coach' category, but I wonder if you'd have felt the same way had you secured his signature?!!

The conversation that day was very anti-Beale (who'd also been linked) but I felt that was very much clouded by the links with Still, however unrealistic that might have been in reality.

My view is that a) Pearson was brought in to do a job, which was to get us out of a financial mess whilst avoiding a relegation dogfight - and he did that well, no question. And b) his departure had more to do with his health and/or internal relationships than it did with football. And c) whilst he achieved a) with flying colours, we rarely saw good football in the process, and because of b) never got the chance to find out whether that would have followed.

I'm only saying this because it feels like that makes the Pearson scenario quite different to the Mowbray one? At least from this (considerable!) distance.

As you say, it will be interesting to see how we both do over the coming months - especially having both made the same move, in the same direction, at pretty much the same time.

Looking forward to seeing where we both are when we visit in April - always one of my favourite away trips. 

Edited January 14 by italian dave

[robin_unreliant]

7 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Makes next Saturday absolutely huge as the run of games after, look to be really tough…..

Also, by the time we go to Coventry, we will know the squad we have for the rest of the season too

We do seem to get more out of what, on paper, look to be tougher games. Let's hope that continues.

[bcfc01]

54 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

Its a tough run of games for sure, including Watford who will be up for the game.

TBH, I can't see any points from that lot.

(My predictions are shite, so that should give us a leg up).

[Dr Balls]

29 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Twice today I’ve agreed with you

Not only crosses, but the pass through the middle too. We’ve no-one who can hassle and bully defenders as they chase down that pass, and take two defenders with them to do it, freeing up space for someone else to run into.

We miss Fam. 

But Fam cost millions in fees and his wages weren’t small either. That’s not what the Lansdowns want either. After wanting to be Southampton, with the Academy etc, the latest model is Luton/Ipswich I.e. young coach and cheap players mostly from League 1. If anything rather than a well thought strategy, it smacks of jealousy that other clubs have managed something that we haven’t I.e. promotion to the Premier League.

[Dr Balls]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Also, Watford is  followed by Coventry (a), Leeds (h), Boro (a), Southampton (h). Good luck with that little lot. 

The only upside of that run is that these are not teams that are likely to “park the bus” like Birmingham and Millwall, so there may be more opportunities to play to our strengths I.e. not have the majority of possession and counter attack quickly. Two problems - these teams are also more likely to score against us and Manning doesn’t se to want us to play to our strengths!