Why Are We Constantly Celebrating Average & Our Failed Past?

[italian dave]

In summary, two pages into a thread about how we always look back and never forward, and we’ve got as far back as Gary Johnson already!

[Tim Monaghan]

7 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

See, that's the issue.

Pearson didn't move on.

He was ousted unfairly, and treated badly.

If that wasn't the case, people wouldn't keep banging on about it and lambasting the inept Lansdowns.

Because, unless the Lansdowns are held to account, what happened to Pearson, just as easliy happen to Manning as soon as the Lansdowns consider he is stepping out of line.

So, if you want to focus on the future, let's do that.

Step one: Let's think how we can get rid of the Lansdowns, because after sufficent time in control, they have demonstrated that they cannot deliver success.

Absolutely, Bazooka. Regardless of whether he was ousted, stepped down, or whatever the case may be, he's no longer in the picture, and that's the bottom line.

When it comes to the Lansdowns, it's a bit of a tricky one for me. Defining success becomes a grey area. If success is solely reaching the Premier League, then it's clear we've fallen short thus far. However, if success is measured by winning LDV Vans trophies, securing promotions, Championship playoff final, establishing a new stadium, a state-of-the-art training ground, and maintaining financial stability as a Championship club, then they've undeniably been successful.

Ultimately, their primary aim has been to secure Premiership football, so they've fallen short in achieving that goal so far, BUT, It's important to reflect on the journey. I recall a time when we were a struggling League One club, with a dilapidated Ashton Gate and not much to boast about, so I also have to reassess my opinions at times and look at the bigger picture of where we are going. 

[Sheltons Army]

40 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'm willing to acknowledge your apology for the inaccuracies in your initial post.

Criticism, whether directed towards fans or the club, includes myself in the mix. Personally, and it appears that this sentiment isn't unanimous, I'm growing weary of the incessant focus on Pearson. I understand that many in the fanbase were fond of him (count me in), but he's moved on. The perpetual negativity surrounding it is tiresome. Nigel is no longer with us.

Based on the forum discussions (which is my primary reference), it feels like a rather toxic environment. To me, that seems like a fair-sized sample of the fanbase, and the prevailing atmosphere is overwhelmingly negative. Perhaps I lean towards optimism more than most, or maybe I'm completely off the mark. It just strikes me that as a fanbase and a club, we are overly fixated on the negatives. Even when we finally undergo a shakeup, the response is, once again, toxic. I'm not asserting that my perspective is the correct one; it's simply my opinion and observation. I understand that engaging in a meaningful debate can be challenging for some without resorting to personal or rude remarks. (Rest assured, I'll always respond in a similar tone and respect the tone directed at me.)

This space seems saturated with Nigel admiration, and the club's page is extending birthday wishes to Jamie Paterson as if he were some legendary figure. It's all a bit peculiar and tinpot. 

"Suggesting we all ‘get with the times’, what does that actually mean" - In simple terms, get over what's been done. Stop wishing ex players a happy birthday, be a bit more forward thinking. Stop getting exited about a win over Manchester United 6 years ago, its so tinpot. Of course look back and smile, but I want to spearhead, think forward. I don't get that vibe anywhere. 

Just my opinion. 

 

Basically an OP , and posts since that are an anti NP thread trying to be disguised as something else ... 

For someone who gets so upset about anything good said about Pearson and any posts or threads about Pearson , you raise him on multiple occasions , and your main focus , on your original post , .....which Is ironic 
 

But Jon’s trying

 

ok thanks 

 

[Davefevs]

Interesting thread!!!

Personally I don’t think we celebrate average.  I think we celebrate success, relative to its context and relative to our history.  We reminisce.  We do that in more than just football.

Why wouldn’t you hark back to one of the finest goals I’ve ever seen at AG in 45 years watching, on what happened to be a memorable night.

Feels like an anti-Nige thread with a few bits to throw you off the scent.

[Tim Monaghan]

11 minutes ago, Swede said:

With all due respect fella, I think you've missed the trick with Nigel Pearson, as has the club [sadly]

There are a lot of fans who think the same way hence all of the continued interest. Most managers/coaches run their course and get the inevitable parting of the ways, its part of football management. With Pearson he got rid of the high earners, steadied the ship and given the meagre budget he had, had made us competitive and looking to reach the net step. There was a feeling that we were on the cusp of something better, who knows.

Now we are starting again, yes; we all have to move on but here we are, still in the same position but with a vastly less experienced coach yet the club still have the same aspirations. The proof will be if the new coach is given a lot more funding for player recruitment come the January transfer window.

The communication from the club has been extremely poor with no real indication of why we jumped ship mid season and this is why there is still a lot of interest in Nigel Pearson. 

And I agree with all of that fella, but I don't think I've missed a trick (or maybe I have). 
I'm not onboard with this "he got rid of the high earners".  Why is this even a narrative? He let players contracts run out. That's it and Gould was in charge of that, not NP.  He did steady the ship to an extent, but its not as if he didn't have the players at hand to keep us midtable, we were never in danger of dropping IMO. 

Can't argue with the communication side of things. Clearly something happened, but we will never know, so no point in dwelling about it. 

[Davefevs]

Great minds @Sheltons Army

[Curr Avon]

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'm a bit fed up with everything Bristol City right now. It all just feels a bit backward, you know? Why are we so stuck in the past as a club and as fans, especially when we've not really achieved much? Check out the first page of the forum, and you'll see what I mean:

• Nigels leaving card
• Nigel Pearson, Bit of an Artist
• Making a fuss about winning the Carabao Cup 6 years ago (No mention of that Liverpool win we keep harping on about)
• Richard Gould back
• Mark Aston thread

And don't get me started on our social media team—constantly wishing old players happy birthday and every new shirt being some kind of "throwback." It's like we're stuck in a time loop or something.

Why can't we, as a club and a fanbase, be a bit more with the times? We seem to love the same old stuff, especially this weird obsession with Nigel Pearson. The guy was just so average, I don't get where all the love comes from. It's just basic and, well, a bit rubbish. We're basically cheering on failure and being okay with being average.

Why can't we, as a club and fanbase, get with the times a bit more? We're stuck on the same old things, especially this weird love for Nigel Pearson. The bloke was just so average; I'm scratching my head wondering why everyone's so into him apart from the fact he was a bit edgy. It's just basic and, well, a bit tinpot. We're basically cheering on failure and settling for being just average.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

P.s Don't get me started with the love for Massengo just because he had big hair. Never has such a below average player been so lorded.  

 

We won the Carabao Cup? Crikey, that's a long hangover.

[Sheltons Army]

10 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Absolutely, Bazooka. Regardless of whether he was ousted, stepped down, or whatever the case may be, he's no longer in the picture, and that's the bottom line.

When it comes to the Lansdowns, it's a bit of a tricky one for me. Defining success becomes a grey area. If success is solely reaching the Premier League, then it's clear we've fallen short thus far. However, if success is measured by winning LDV Vans trophies, securing promotions, Championship playoff final, establishing a new stadium, a state-of-the-art training ground, and maintaining financial stability as a Championship club, then they've undeniably been successful.

Ultimately, their primary aim has been to secure Premiership football, so they've fallen short in achieving that goal so far, BUT, It's important to reflect on the journey. I recall a time when we were a struggling League One club, with a dilapidated Ashton Gate and not much to boast about, so I also have to reassess my opinions at times and look at the bigger picture of where we are going. 

For the purpose of your ‘debate’

measured by winning LDV Vans trophies,  WOW we did this before the Lansdowns too , and you moan about us harping back to significant wins in major competitions !

securing promotions,  Always good , but you had to get relegated to L1 before you could get promoted from it 

Championship playoff final,     yes........one 

establishing a new stadium,  Its not a new stadium , it’s a developed / modernised stadium , 

a state-of-the-art training ground,  Very nice , and long overdue , but it’s not ‘state of the art’

and maintaining financial stability as a Championship club, ???  By losing significant sums , often by their poor decisions - financial stability because SL has  covered those losses 

then they've undeniably been successful. -

[Tim Monaghan]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Interesting thread!!!

Personally I don’t think we celebrate average.  I think we celebrate success, relative to its context and relative to our history.  We reminisce.  We do that in more than just football.

Why wouldn’t you hark back to one of the finest goals I’ve ever seen at AG in 45 years watching, on what happened to be a memorable night.

Feels like an anti-Nige thread with a few bits to throw you off the scent.

It seems like people are having a hard time reading, so let me make it crystal clear: I am NOT anti-Pearson. Repeat after me: NOT ANTI PEARSON. NOT ANTI PEARSON.

Life isn't just black and white; there's a lot of grey in between. Why do I have to keep reiterating this point? Here we go again.

I genuinely liked Pearson, both as a person and for the job he did. What I can't comprehend is how acknowledging that I think his performance was average somehow translates to being "anti-Nige." Can't we have a nuanced discussion without jumping to extremes? 

[Sheltons Army]

And anyone who thinks NP is , and the job he did here is / was average ........

Doesnt have much of a concept of the **** we were in and the job done to keep us in the Championship whilst baling out 

Bizarre......and mind boggling IMO

 

I maintain most appointments at that point would see us currently moaning in League 1

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

And I agree with all of that fella, but I don't think I've missed a trick (or maybe I have). 
I'm not onboard with this "he got rid of the high earners".  Why is this even a narrative? He let players contracts run out. That's it and Gould was in charge of that, not NP.  He did steady the ship to an extent, but its not as if he didn't have the players at hand to keep us midtable, we were never in danger of dropping IMO. 

Can't argue with the communication side of things. Clearly something happened, but we will never know, so no point in dwelling about it. 

And this is your whole agenda….you cannot see that lots (and I mean lots) have a completely different take to you re Nige.  We think he did well to navigate our Championship safety with a piddling little squad for two seasons.  You don’t.

It’s fine, it’s your opinion (and others are with you).  Some of us disagree massively.

We were never in danger of dropping because of what Nige did with what he had.  My opinion.

Neither of us will be able to prove it one way or the other.  But stopping people expressing their opinions because it’s not the same as yours…..

There are things where there is a swell of people with a different opinion to mine, where I’m the minority.  Sometimes you have to suck it up, and scroll on by / down.

[Curr Avon]

Just to make you all feel better, close your eyes and remember, The Way We Were...

PS. February 19th 2024 is the 50th Anniversary of our FA Cup 5th Round, 1-0 win at Elland Road, against the then mighty Leeds United.

[Tim Monaghan]

27 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

For the purpose of your ‘debate’

measured by winning LDV Vans trophies,  WOW we did this before the Lansdowns too , and you moan about us harping back to significant wins in major competitions !

securing promotions,  Always good , but you had to get relegated to L1 before you could get promoted from it 

Championship playoff final,     yes........one 

establishing a new stadium,  Its not a new stadium , it’s a developed / modernised stadium , 

a state-of-the-art training ground,  Very nice , and long overdue , but it’s not ‘state of the art’

and maintaining financial stability as a Championship club, ???  By losing significant sums , often by their poor decisions - financial stability because SL has  covered those losses 

then they've undeniably been successful. -

Just out of curiosity, I'm a bit unclear on where the boundary lies between "very nice" and "state-of-the-art" when it comes to training grounds. Could you provide some insight into when a training ground transitions from being "very nice" to achieving the status of "state-of-the-art"? It would be valuable information for future debates, especially when conveying that constructing a training ground that's merely "very nice" isn't perceived as a noteworthy success.
 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Ghost Rider

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'm a bit fed up with everything Bristol City right now. It all just feels a bit backward, you know? Why are we so stuck in the past as a club and as fans, especially when we've not really achieved much? Check out the first page of the forum, and you'll see what I mean:

• Nigels leaving card
• Nigel Pearson, Bit of an Artist
• Making a fuss about winning the Carabao Cup 6 years ago (No mention of that Liverpool win we keep harping on about)
• Richard Gould back
• Mark Aston thread

And don't get me started on our social media team—constantly wishing old players happy birthday and every new shirt being some kind of "throwback." It's like we're stuck in a time loop or something.

Why can't we, as a club and a fanbase, be a bit more with the times? We seem to love the same old stuff, especially this weird obsession with Nigel Pearson. The guy was just so average, I don't get where all the love comes from. It's just basic and, well, a bit rubbish. We're basically cheering on failure and being okay with being average.

Why can't we, as a club and fanbase, get with the times a bit more? We're stuck on the same old things, especially this weird love for Nigel Pearson. The bloke was just so average; I'm scratching my head wondering why everyone's so into him apart from the fact he was a bit edgy. It's just basic and, well, a bit tinpot. We're basically cheering on failure and settling for being just average.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

P.s Don't get me started with the love for Massengo just because he had big hair. Never has such a below average player been so lorded.  

 

Who is your we? 

[Tim Monaghan]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And this is your whole agenda….you cannot see that lots (and I mean lots) have a completely different take to you re Nige.  We think he did well to navigate our Championship safety with a piddling little squad for two seasons.  You don’t.

It’s fine, it’s your opinion (and others are with you).  Some of us disagree massively.

We were never in danger of dropping because of what Nige did with what he had.  My opinion.

Neither of us will be able to prove it one way or the other.  But stopping people expressing their opinions because it’s not the same as yours…..

There are things where there is a swell of people with a different opinion to mine, where I’m the minority.  Sometimes you have to suck it up, and scroll on by / down.

What are you even on about? When have I ever prevented someone from expressing their opinion just because it doesn't align with mine? This forum exists for debates, as evidenced by this very thread. If everyone just scrolled past, we'd end up in an echo chamber where everyone agrees on everything. That defeats the purpose of having discussions and differing viewpoints – that's the essence of it.

I appreciate your perspective, and I respectfully disagree. You're correct; we won't be able to prove it, which makes me wonder why we're still even discussing it. If we invested as much energy into supporting Manning as we do reminiscing about Nigel Pearson (and just to be clear, I liked him), we might actually make some progress.

[Clevedon Red]

1 hour ago, BCFCGav said:

I actually undertook a hefty project in my free time at work over the past year to check something and maybe it's relevant here.

In our history, we've won 10 trophies.

Championship (or equivalent) x1

League 1 (or equivalent) x4

EFL Trophy x3

Anglo-Scottish Cup x1

Welsh Cup x1

No major honours, and some of the cup wins could be called a little underwhelming. So this got me thinking about how we stack up to the other 71 EFL clubs (based on the make-up of the leagues last season). 

I delved into all 71 of their histories and compiled a list of everything they'd won in that time (as best I could, we are going back 120 years in some cases). I counted every trophy unless it was at non-league level (anything below League 2), or was regional (I didn't count our Gloucestershire cups for example). I also considered major honours to be worth more (kind of obvious, a League 2 title and a European Cup could hardly be weighted equally). And, of the 72 clubs, when looking at quantity and quality of honours, we came around 30th. So 6th in League 1 if all EFL clubs were positioned based on their honours history.

So to summarise, we have underperformed by Championship standards but have more than most the clubs in League 1 and 2 to shout about when it comes to history.

Maybe this isn't actually that relevant at all, but I found it interesting to do so though people might find it interesting to read. 

And you are correct, I'm not very fun at parties.

 

Get yourself on the dull men’s club on Facebook they’d love stats like that

[phantom]

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

"I'm intrigued what any sports fan can do apart from looking back at previous glories?" - I do agree with this, but a win against Liverpool and Manchester United, well. But that's kind of my point, we seemed to be happy with, meh. It was a great night, but we don't want to seem to push, and yeah, the Lansdowns are part of that problem, but they are trying and clearly JL saw what I did with Pearson. Absolutely love the guy but a change was needed. 

The problem is that there isn't anything else for us to get excited about

[grifty]

There is a weird obsession from some posters on here trying to dictate what people should discuss on here mainly if they don’t agree or don’t have an interest in that topic.

Very odd behaviour.

[fisherrich]

1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'm willing to acknowledge your apology for the inaccuracies in your initial post.

Criticism, whether directed towards fans or the club, includes myself in the mix. Personally, and it appears that this sentiment isn't unanimous, I'm growing weary of the incessant focus on Pearson. I understand that many in the fanbase were fond of him (count me in), but he's moved on. The perpetual negativity surrounding it is tiresome. Nigel is no longer with us.

Based on the forum discussions (which is my primary reference), it feels like a rather toxic environment. To me, that seems like a fair-sized sample of the fanbase, and the prevailing atmosphere is overwhelmingly negative. Perhaps I lean towards optimism more than most, or maybe I'm completely off the mark. It just strikes me that as a fanbase and a club, we are overly fixated on the negatives. Even when we finally undergo a shakeup, the response is, once again, toxic. I'm not asserting that my perspective is the correct one; it's simply my opinion and observation. I understand that engaging in a meaningful debate can be challenging for some without resorting to personal or rude remarks. (Rest assured, I'll always respond in a similar tone and respect the tone directed at me.)

This space seems saturated with Nigel admiration, and the club's page is extending birthday wishes to Jamie Paterson as if he were some legendary figure. It's all a bit peculiar and tinpot. 

"Suggesting we all ‘get with the times’, what does that actually mean" - In simple terms, get over what's been done. Stop wishing ex players a happy birthday, be a bit more forward thinking. Stop getting exited about a win over Manchester United 6 years ago, its so tinpot. Of course look back and smile, but I want to spearhead, think forward. I don't get that vibe anywhere. 

Just my opinion. 

 

I’m forward thinking! Lansdowns need to go NOW.

New owners (bit of a gamble etc, rah, rah, rah) but this football club has gone nowhere on the pitch for 20 odd years. We need change at the top asap.

[Steve Watts]

The OP sees acknowledging reality as celebrating failure, but that is a massive over simplification as it strips out all relativity.  

We have never been a "successful" team by those metrics, but there is no problem with celebrating successes that are in line with where we are.

That doesn't stop us from aspiring to better ourselves.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  And as always, it's the hope that kills you!

As for moaning about wishing former players a happy birthday - where is the harm?  It's a nice little gesture from the media team and would largely improve the image of the club as opposed to damaging it, which can be beneficial when selling the club to prospective players, managers or supporters.  The little things mount up and this is just one of those things.  It's a strange thing to get frustrated over.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Steve Watts

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, ooRya said:

Ha ha...no problem!

But looking at our history to date, how can we describe ourselves as anything other than a small club?

 

By "bigging" ourselves up. By telling whoppers. By focusing on and shouting loudly about how many we are taking to West Ham whilst ignoring as much as possible and keeping quiet about Watford away.

By adopting a bit of "fake it till you make it" Trumpery.

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, Ghost Rider said:

And I'm happy with that. 

I believe the distinction lies in my willingness to embrace being proven wrong.

Harvard recently conducted a study on the malleability of people's opinions, and it resonated with me, particularly in the context of some discussions on this forum. In essence, the study highlighted that when individuals hold an opinion that is later proven wrong, a staggering 83% are unwilling to admit their error or maintain an open mind. Instead, they tend to double down on their original stance, perhaps to save face or protect their ego. It's a phenomenon that rings true in many cases on here. 

However, I fall outside that 83%, and my perspective is ever-evolving. If presented with better information or a well-rounded argument, my opinion is prone to change. Regrettably, such openness to diverse viewpoints appears to be somewhat lacking in our forum discussions.

Fine.

Time will tell if you're willing to embrace being proved wrong. In the meantime, is there any way of transferring this virtue to Messrs Lansdown and Tinnion?

With regard to Harvard. In my opinion, academics at that  place and other such pompous establishments, are grossly over-rated and should definitely not be revered.

Bit like politicians.

[Tim Monaghan]

22 minutes ago, fisherrich said:

This football club has gone nowhere on the pitch for 20 odd years.

That's factually incorrect. 

[phantom]

32 minutes ago, fisherrich said:

.... but this football club has gone nowhere on the pitch for 20 odd years

I could have sworn that we got promoted in 2015

[DaveInSA]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

No matter where we are- that night at the Man U game was simply sublime. Nothing bitter for me.

I started attending matches in the early 80's so thats 40 years now. Probably half that has been in Div 3. I genuinely don't get the "we should expect more" in that if you choose to drive a Ford Fiesta 1.1 then it's silly getting frustrated that it doesn't do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.

I think we've only once looked like we may genuinely get to the top tier since 1980 and we've never come close since that season or before.BCFC are rank outsiders every year and I don't see that changing without a really big slice of luck/rub of the green/everything clicking.

 

That bit in bold needs another slash:

/proper leadership, vision and management.

if we had that over the past 30 years, we would be way better off than where we are now. 

[ashton_fan]

I think we have moved forward in the last few years but off the pitch rather than on, the new stadium and training facilities allow us to focus on the playing side now. Those years with the Ashton Vale planning etc. all the effort was going to off the field projects and the playing side wasn't getting enough attention, that's the main reason why we got relegated and have been trying to recover since, COVID didn't help either due to the collapse of transfer values. We're about back now to the stage we were at the end of the Gary Johnson era only hopefully on the way up rather than down, I'm reasonably optimistic next season will be a significant step forward.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I think we have moved forward in the last few years but off the pitch rather than on, the new stadium and training facilities allow us to focus on the playing side now. Those years with the Ashton Vale planning etc. all the effort was going to off the field projects and the playing side wasn't getting enough attention, that's the main reason why we got relegated and have been trying to recover since, COVID didn't help either due to the collapse of transfer values. We're about back now to the stage we were at the end of the Gary Johnson era only hopefully on the way up rather than down, I'm reasonably optimistic next season will be a significant step forward.

I like to think and hope you are correct but in theory yeah the base is there but do we have the correct head coach and indeed structure to do so.

If we still had NP, Gould and Tinnion in his correct and suitable role I would be more confident, in theory there are some good things but..since the summer and post NP I am less confident.

[BCFC31]

Probably because we are a bang average underwhelming club ? We love this club but that is the truth and as I have said before untill we have ownership who wants to have a go and wants to change that then we will continue to be a bang average underwhelming club

Edited December 20, 2023 by BCFC31

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Super said:

Not saying he was a failure but certainly wasn't a success. 

It’s like saying Van Gogh would be a failure if someone had taken away his brushes. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

The OP sees acknowledging reality as celebrating failure, but that is a massive over simplification as it strips out all relativity.  

We have never been a "successful" team by those metrics, but there is no problem with celebrating successes that are in line with where we are.

That doesn't stop us from aspiring to better ourselves.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  And as always, it's the hope that kills you!

As for moaning about wishing former players a happy birthday - where is the harm?  It's a nice little gesture from the media team and would largely improve the image of the club as opposed to damaging it, which can be beneficial when selling the club to prospective players, managers or supporters.  The little things mount up and this is just one of those things.  It's a strange thing to get frustrated over.

Was the essence of my post Steve, it’s all relative.  Liverpool playing Thursday night football is not seen as success, whereas for another team it would.

21 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

I think we have moved forward in the last few years but off the pitch rather than on, the new stadium and training facilities allow us to focus on the playing side now. Those years with the Ashton Vale planning etc. all the effort was going to off the field projects and the playing side wasn't getting enough attention, that's the main reason why we got relegated and have been trying to recover since, COVID didn't help either due to the collapse of transfer values. We're about back now to the stage we were at the end of the Gary Johnson era only hopefully on the way up rather than down, I'm reasonably optimistic next season will be a significant step forward.

Think those two bits in bold sum it up nicely.  In cycles you can be at the top, middle or bottom of it…and over a given period we are kind of back to where we are!!

And it’s not just league position either.  As you say off the pitch (infrastructure wise) we look in a good place.

I think most of us think this season and next season should see us kick-on.  “Kick-on” can mean different things to different people.