5 wins in 18 games….dreadful!

[Superjack]

40 minutes ago, Graham76 said:

All this front foot attacking football that we were promised. Tonight was the complete opposite.  If Manning doesn’t believe the squad is capable of top 6 he should say so, otherwise he should be accountable. 

If he says so, he'll be out.

[JP Hampton]

The problem is, that we have a set of players who are rolled out in predictable line ups and subbed with no attempt to change formation or attack etc. it’s as though JL can read the game that the opposition will bring and pick a formation based on that but the minute things don’t go to plan he seems lost as others have said, there’s no plan B. 
  
  We’re continually and again predictably, taking the ball down the wing, game after game, any team coming here knows exactly how we play, even if they’d never studied our style. There’s no variation to our attack.       We don’t seem to adapt and individual flair seems thwarted. 
 

  To be fair I’ve not watched a game like that for a while under Manning and it’s not just down to him. We have been exposed tonight, we just had nothing to give. 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

I suppose my point was that things aren't markedly worse now than they have been over the past few years under Pearson. We're on track to end this season in exactly the same place we ended last.

Manning is no better, nor any worse than Pearson results wise and until the squad is improved that won't change. Considering the high esteem many held Pearson in (saw some on here claiming he was our 3rd best manager in the last 50 years...), nothing (apart from hope) points to us being any further forward under him than we are currently.

That doesn't take away from the ridiculous nature of his sacking, and it doesn't make the laughable statements the board came out with after it correct, but it does highlight that much like how Manning isn't underachieving, Pearson wasn't overachieving this season either

He was - let’s here your list of better ( with some rationale regarding level , resources offered etc )

 

Will be interesting 

 

Edited February 3 by Sheltons Army

[TomThumb84]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

I suppose my point was that things aren't markedly worse now than they have been over the past few years under Pearson. We're on track to end this season in exactly the same place we ended last.

Manning is no better, nor any worse than Pearson results wise and until the squad is improved that won't change. Considering the high esteem many held Pearson in (saw some on here claiming he was our 3rd best manager in the last 50 years...), nothing (apart from hope) points to us being any further forward under him than we are currently.

That doesn't take away from the ridiculous nature of his sacking, and it doesn't make the laughable statements the board came out with after it correct, but it does highlight that much like how Manning isn't underachieving, Pearson wasn't overachieving this season either

3rd best in 50 years?

Not far off if you consider context and what they had to deal with.

Top 5 for sure:

Dicks

Cooper

Jordan

Pearson

G.Johnson

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

This is where things could get tricky for the club. 17 points in 15 games when you have taken over a STABLE club is not great reading. We could be sat here a week Tuesday with 17 from 17 if we’re not careful and that IS relegation form like it or not.

Personally I’m binning off the next two league games  in terms of expectation after watching us get utterly outclassed and show very little idea tonight but after that with more winnable games on the horizon Manning needs to start showing signs of SOMETHING……….

If he doesn’t and we start heading towards 18th or 19th place and a lesser points total than last season the pressure is going to intensify, again like it or not.

I think back to Nige’s sacking (nothing to do with Nige’s sacking itself) but the two fixtures that followed - and the naivety of Wednesday (h) and QPR (a) and the “easy 6 points” brigade getting ready to feast.  We got 4 points.

We come off the back of Boro and Saints with the reverse fixtures.  They don’t look like “easy 6 points” anymore.

Hopefully we will find a way to get a win over the next couple.

2 hours ago, 38MC said:

It’s incredibly frustrating that commentary on tonight has reverted to Liam Manning v Nigel Pearson. 

This has nothing to do with which camp you are in. It’s just the observation that the team performed crap tonight (Max O Leary aside) and the weakest performance unfortunately was from the manager. 

That has nothing to do with Nigel Pearson and by calling it out is not harking back to a love affair with the predecessor. This ain’t the time for comparing records or calling out the board, I think it’s the time for calling out ‘Manning you lost us 3 points tonight for setting us up very poorly and not having the nouse to change it’. 

it’s not about harking back to the past, it’s about being concerned for the future now. 

I haven’t really read much of OTIB tonight, so not sure what has been said / written, but I was surprised that we continued to try to build attacks from goal-kicks by Dickie passing to O’Leary.  What happened to Manning’s “if we are well pressed we will go over it” appointment speech?

Secondly at 1-0 down why was TC screening Gruev when Meslier had the ball at his feet.  We have to gamble a bit, and get TC to press Meslier, and get James or TGH to go onto Gruev (no44).  It put little pressure on Leeds back line.  Pipe and slippers for Gruev.  That really disappointed me.  TC wasn’t happy either.

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

100% agree. I hate the ppg Pearson/Manning comparisons but the board did bring it in themselves. As you rightly say, it’s about whether Liam was/is good enough and the conversation needs to be around that.

It’s the underlying numbers that worry me more.

But having said that, I’m more than happy to watch how he solves his problems (it’s not just down to the players).  Tonight’s game in isolation isn’t a concern.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

I suppose my point was that things aren't markedly worse now than they have been over the past few years under Pearson. We're on track to end this season in exactly the same place we ended last.

which had that played out under Nige I’d say he’d failed.  This season was the start of the kick-on under Nige.  Until injuries hit he had us flirting between 7-11th most of the season.

Manning is no better, nor any worse than Pearson results wise and until the squad is improved that won't change.

the facts are his results are worse.

Considering the high esteem many held Pearson in (saw some on here claiming he was our 3rd best manager in the last 50 years...), nothing (apart from hope) points to us being any further forward under him than we are currently.

I think there is clear evidence of him clearing up a cluster#### of a situation.  Stop relying on PPG.

That doesn't take away from the ridiculous nature of his sacking, and it doesn't make the laughable statements the board came out with after it correct, but it does highlight that much like how Manning isn't underachieving, Pearson wasn't overachieving this season either

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

I suppose my point was that things aren't markedly worse now than they have been over the past few years under Pearson. We're on track to end this season in exactly the same place we ended last.

Manning is no better, nor any worse than Pearson results wise and until the squad is improved that won't change. Considering the high esteem many held Pearson in (saw some on here claiming he was our 3rd best manager in the last 50 years...), nothing (apart from hope) points to us being any further forward under him than we are currently.

That doesn't take away from the ridiculous nature of his sacking, and it doesn't make the laughable statements the board came out with after it correct, but it does highlight that much like how Manning isn't underachieving, Pearson wasn't overachieving this season either

I think thats an unfair comparison. 

It's well documented that Pearson had to rebuild the squad with limited resources and shift the deadwood, build a culture and develop youth all whilst we had quite bad injuries. 

This season was the 1st season where you could say it was Pearsons team and that we were finally in a position to give it a go. There was a general expectation that this season we would improve upon that 14th place finish. I think most expected top 10. We were on course for that despite the injury problems. And had we of not reached that expectation then Pearson would have got the same shit as Manning is now getting. 

Now we're on course to finish mid table yet again despite Manning having a better squad than Pearson had last season and better player availability. The squad was primed for Manning to come in and take it forward. We've not stood still, we've regressed. 

So to compare Manning this season and Pearson last season is completely unfair when you consider it in the context that we were expected to take big steps forward this season. 

Edited February 3 by W-S-M Seagull

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Sorry Mr P , yes BT

Thanks SA. Radio Bristol or Twitter, will look to find it and compare or contrast to the reality. Yeah Leeds are clearly very decent but that was poor.

[1team]

Sat in a bar with the same group of Leeds fans as the away game in October. They couldn't get over the difference. Thought we looked one of the best teams to visit Elland Rd, tonight thought we looked terrified and  worse than Rotherham.

[Silvio Dante]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I haven’t really read much of OTIB tonight, so not sure what has been said / written, but I was surprised that we continued to try to build attacks from goal-kicks by Dickie passing to O’Leary.  What happened to Manning’s “if we are well pressed we will go over it” appointment speech?

 

Just on this bit Dave - early on Sky put up “things to watch” - and for Leeds, it was that they were top of the division for high turnovers. Theres no way Manning wouldn’t have also known that, and we all know the team are as yet not totally comfortable with the way he wants to play. 
 

So, we had a combination of a team still learning to play heavy possession football (and naturally more prone to mistakes) against a team who have the ability to win the ball high up. It wasn’t rocket science to see what was going to happen. Sky pointed out at halftime we gave the ball away but that was the underlying reason.

On reflection, I’m most concerned about that last night. Because it wasn’t just the fact LM didn’t change it mid game - which we know is a real problem for him - but the fact that the data told him what would happen and he did it anyway. If he’s losing his strongest suit of prep, how many clothes will he have left?

[Bodiesaffer]

8 hours ago, Tomo said:

Incorrect. Pearson had 14 league games....20 points ...1.42PPG

Fleming 1 game = 3PPG 

Manning 15 Games, 17 Points = 1.13PPG

Let’s all not forget,  Manning had players retuning from injury.  I believe we would be a lot better off sicking with NP till the end of the season. It not worked out.

[FNQ]

With our league one manager and our league one players, and with more ‘smart’ league one or below players to arrive in the summer to replace James, Williams and probably Tommy too, we are gradually morphing into a genuine league one side. We had an incredible opportunity to back a proven and motivated manager with funds following the sale of AS and AS and blew it, as a club it serves us f****** right.

Last night, was pathetic and really, really embarrassing on so many fronts, from the boardroom, to the coaches, to the players.. 

Hey, but we’re still in the cup and we go again..

[Engvall’s Splinter]

Without scrolling through all the posts, what concerns me is our recruitment/style will change during the summer under Manning and things then go tits (more tits than it already has). Manning gets the boot. We are again left with players on 3 year deals that the next manager feels doesn’t fit his system. Rinse, repeat. 

Can’t shift the feeling that JL and BT’s vanity / ego project will be detrimental to the club in the long run. Also can’t shift the feeling that I believe they are wan kerse.

 

Edited February 3 by Engvall’s Splinter

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Engvall’s Splinter said:

Without scrolling through all the posts, what concerns me is our recruitment/style will change during the summer under Manning and things then go tits (more tits than it already has). Manning gets the boot. We are again left with players on 3 year deals that the next manager feels doesn’t fit his system. Rinse, repeat. 
 

 

I think that’s why I’m in the boat of needing to see real improvement in the remaining games this year. I’m going to tap my sign again that says LM has had two pre seasons in his career, one ended in failure, one ended in him coming to us. That doesn’t in itself give compelling rationale that given a pre season he’ll get it right, and I wouldn’t want to spend loads of money or dole out contracts in the summer with a manager where there are major doubts.

The sensible and appropriate move is to assess in May whether Liam is the right man for the job - and if he isn’t considered to be, make the call then as opposed to starting the cycle you refer to. If he is, support him with the funds. But I have an awful feeling we’ll do that then end up sacking him in November!

 

[Super]

I must have missed all this wonderful football under Pearson. Yes he was probably unlucky to be given the boot but he was hardly the messiah. Manning needs to be given till the end of the season at least.

[Shauntaylor85]

19 minutes ago, FNQ said:

With our league one manager and our league one players, and with more ‘smart’ league one or below players to arrive in the summer to replace James, Williams and probably Tommy too, we are gradually morphing into a genuine league one side. We had an incredible opportunity to back a proven and motivated manager with funds following the sale of AS and AS and blew it, as a club it serves us f****** right.

Last night, was pathetic and really, really embarrassing on so many fronts, from the boardroom, to the coaches, to the players.. 

Hey, but we’re still in the cup and we go again..

With Tinnion running it all as the boss, the man who left us on brink of relegation to League Two with an expensive assembled squad. Don’t be fooled as to who really wanted Nige gone. 

[Sir Geoff]

9 hours ago, JBFC II said:

Under Pearson we were averaging 1.29 PPG this season, under Manning we are averaging 1.21.

That's basically one more win over the course of a season under Pearson. So we've not regressed nor have we improved, we've stayed where we were.

We're on to finish with 59/60 points at the end of the season, so absolutely 0 progress from last season as things stand!

1.43 this season.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

1.43 this season.

With half a fit squad. 

[mozo]

8 hours ago, 38MC said:

It’s incredible it’s a debate davefevs. It should be a resounding acceptance of a shocker tonight - which can happen, that’s fine - what’s not fine is having no attempt at an answer. If it wasn’t for an excellent performance from Max that was a cricket score tonight. 

And for all the Max doubters, for him to bounce back from Cov with a game like that… well played that man 

What do you mean by 'it'. There's no debate that the performance was awful. There's definitely a debate that we should take that performance (off the back of us outplaying Coventry at their place) as some sort of proof that manager is going to fail.

7 hours ago, Superjack said:

Never mind Twine and Sykes.

If he can't get the players available playing better than this,then he isn't up to the job . 

His predecessor had a far more lengthy injury list and paid the price for it. 

And he was doing better.

Well let's become one of those clubs that keeps chopping and changing the manager and see how that works out. 

Forget about Pearson. Forget about the top 6 bollocks. What objectively is the best thing to do with a new manager. Give them time? Or pile pressure on them after 3/4 months?

[JBFC II]

6 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

He was - let’s here your list of better ( with some rationale regarding level , resources offered etc )

 

Will be interesting 

 

Well, Dicks and Gary Johnson are a clear 1 and 2.

3rd could be a whole host of people, LJ saw us to one of our highest ever league positions, as well as that run in the cup. Cotterill saw that season in league one, ultimately didn’t have the squad to compete in the championship. Terry Cooper was before my time, but he took on a markedly worse position than Pearson and nearly gave us two promotions.

For me any one of those three is more deserving of that title. Of course Pearson cleared up a mess that was left before and provided some seriously needed stability, but to claim he’s one of our greatest ever managers when in 3 years he took us from 13th in the championship to 15th in the championship, compared to other mentioned (as well as Joe Jordan, John Ward etc) doesn’t sit well with me tbh

[Jose]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Well, Dicks and Gary Johnson are a clear 1 and 2.

3rd could be a whole host of people, LJ saw us to one of our highest ever league positions, as well as that run in the cup. Cotterill saw that season in league one, ultimately didn’t have the squad to compete in the championship. Terry Cooper was before my time, but he took on a markedly worse position than Pearson and nearly gave us two promotions.

For me any one of those three is more deserving of that title. Of course Pearson cleared up a mess that was left before and provided some seriously needed stability, but to claim he’s one of our greatest ever managers when in 3 years he took us from 13th in the championship to 15th in the championship, compared to other mentioned (as well as Joe Jordan, John Ward etc) doesn’t sit well with me tbh

LJ? Are you taking the piss?

[the1stknowle]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think back to Nige’s sacking (nothing to do with Nige’s sacking itself) but the two fixtures that followed - and the naivety of Wednesday (h) and QPR (a) and the “easy 6 points” brigade getting ready to feast.  We got 4 points.

We come off the back of Boro and Saints with the reverse fixtures.  They don’t look like “easy 6 points” anymore.

Hopefully we will find a way to get a win over the next couple.

I haven’t really read much of OTIB tonight, so not sure what has been said / written, but I was surprised that we continued to try to build attacks from goal-kicks by Dickie passing to O’Leary.  What happened to Manning’s “if we are well pressed we will go over it” appointment speech?

Secondly at 1-0 down why was TC screening Gruev when Meslier had the ball at his feet.  We have to gamble a bit, and get TC to press Meslier, and get James or TGH to go onto Gruev (no44).  It put little pressure on Leeds back line.  Pipe and slippers for Gruev.  That really disappointed me.  TC wasn’t happy either.

It’s the underlying numbers that worry me more.

But having said that, I’m more than happy to watch how he solves his problems (it’s not just down to the players).  Tonight’s game in isolation isn’t a concern.

This is how I feel - I'm fully behind Manning, can see promise in certain things we do, am frustrated by others, but enjoying watching how things might evolve and how what is clearly a sharp young manager might evolve with us. And, personally, I'd love him to have chance to manage a club where all fans are genuinely behind him for a bit.

But, I also feel, little point saying it on forum currently because to me this place just feels like a confirmation bias bubble ready to jump on everything and anything to slate club, Manning, JL and Tinns and to eulogise about the glorious football under Nige. That Leeds game last night actually really reminded me of a lot of games under Nige where it felt like we'd accepted we'd just go through the motions against a team demonstrably better than us. Scroll back through the Nige-time match threads for similar sentiments among a wide range of supporters.. 

I'm writing this not to change any minds and definitely not to get involved in the 'you're wrong' comments that follow. But only to say there are people like me that are nowhere near 'Manning out' and aren't walking through footballing life in despair at Nige's departure and Manning's appointment. There is clearly an attempt to play in a certain way now and when it does work (the three FA Cup prem games) its been better to watch than any City team in a long time. Im even enjoying watching our centre backs really try to stick to the play out from back rules even when they always look like they're a split second from giving the ball away each time they have to pass to a team mate ahead of them. 

Hope club sticks course and, with the decision made, they ignore the nonsense, back manager for a reasonable period of time, and give their plan a chance. They will have to put up with a section of fan base saying 'top six squad apparently' every five minutes, but if that's enough to sway them then there's no point in them making any plan.

Edited February 3 by the1stknowle

[JBFC II]

19 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

1.43 this season.

18 points in 14 games come to 1.29 doesn’t it, unless my maths is vastly out

[JBFC II]

Just now, Jose said:

LJ? Are you taking the piss?

He obviously isn’t popular on here, and was provided with a shed load of money.

But, at times, he took us to places we haven’t been for a long time. That counts for something in my book

[tin]

9 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

He was virtually salivating pre match about the transfer window and future transfer plans

He was full of it and tbf good to hear such positivity and if you judged everything purely on his interview , you’d say prepare for take off !

Hes definitely right at the centre of all this and clearly believes

Fingers crossed then ! 

 

Interesting that he was absolutely clear that they have have been given a percentage of the Antoine and Scott monies to ‘reinvest’

 

I haven’t heard his interview but how can he be salivating when the mandate for all new signings is to sign younger players we can sell on, all while those younger players may block the pathway of what Tinnion said is the best crop coming through. 

As for him drooling at our summer plans, I bet it doesn’t involve the sort of forward-thinking recruitment Leeds did with Summerville, for example. Young players who could make a tangible difference, rather than more passive players who produce little in terms of goals or assists. 

I loved him as a player, but he’s way out of his depth being in charge of recruitment. Delusions of grandeur.

[JBFC II]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think thats an unfair comparison. 

It's well documented that Pearson had to rebuild the squad with limited resources and shift the deadwood, build a culture and develop youth all whilst we had quite bad injuries. 

This season was the 1st season where you could say it was Pearsons team and that we were finally in a position to give it a go. There was a general expectation that this season we would improve upon that 14th place finish. I think most expected top 10. We were on course for that despite the injury problems. And had we of not reached that expectation then Pearson would have got the same shit as Manning is now getting. 

Now we're on course to finish mid table yet again despite Manning having a better squad than Pearson had last season and better player availability. The squad was primed for Manning to come in and take it forward. We've not stood still, we've regressed. 

So to compare Manning this season and Pearson last season is completely unfair when you consider it in the context that we were expected to take big steps forward this season. 

We weren’t exactly on course for a top 10 finish, we were 15th when Pearson departed and on course for 60 points, which hasn’t been enough for top 10 for the last decade.

Would things be different if Pearson were here now? Who knows? There’s no evidence from his time here to say they would have been, but then perhaps he may have had different January targets who would have seen us surge up the table.

Not comparing them in different seasons, we’re at a point now where they’ve both had similar amounts of games this season, and there’s very little difference between what Pearson did and what Manning has done. 

[the1stknowle]

6 minutes ago, tin said:

I haven’t heard his interview but how can he be salivating when the mandate for all new signings is to sign younger players we can sell on, all while those younger players may block the pathway of what Tinnion said is the best crop coming through. 

As for him drooling at our summer plans, I bet it doesn’t involve the sort of forward-thinking recruitment Leeds did with Summerville, for example. Young players who could make a tangible difference, rather than more passive players who produce little in terms of goals or assists. 

I loved him as a player, but he’s way out of his depth being in charge of recruitment. Delusions of grandeur.

Genuine question - is our recruitment not good at the moment? What's the disappointment exactly?

[Jacki]

I’ve read this thread with interest and this is where I am. I try to be positive and constructive but that was absolutely dreadful last night. We let Leeds play, every time we got the ball we gave it away and there was no pace of purpose to anything we did. That wasn’t the first time that’s happened under Manning… Millwall at home springs to mind and there have been others. I just don’t buy the fact that performances have improved.

I listened to some of the Tinnion interview last night and he was very bullish about what we’re doing and what we’re bringing in. It was interesting to hear him talking about Conway’s contract as well. But, ultimately, I came away from listening to that thinking that we will be going for some of the better players in League One and some mid table Championship players and won’t be any further forward next year. It’s what we do.

For me, we are a mid table club to our core. We have mid table players and that’s what we’ll be bringing in in the summer. If any of our players show form that is head and shoulders above that, we’ll sell them on and replace them with someone less talented like we always do. And, if it goes a bit wrong and with the lack of successful Championship experience at the top of the club, there is a danger that we will end up in a relegation battle at some point in the next season or two.

There is no sign of meaningful progression whatsoever and I am so bored of it. 

[Floatn Over]

53 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

With Tinnion running it all as the boss, the man who left us on brink of relegation to League Two with an expensive assembled squad. Don’t be fooled as to who really wanted Nige gone. 

Far too much power IMO.

Nige had probably worked him out and so the trap door was pulled.

Notice how BT’s narrative has changed from needing to get better out of the current squad and front foot football now, to recruiting for the future.  Of course the future has no expiry / judgement date.

Really hope I’m proven wrong but I’m not convinced.

[Shauntaylor85]

Just now, Floatn Over said:

Far too much power IMO.

Nige had probably worked him out and so the trap door was pulled.

Notice how BT’s narrative has changed from needing to get better out of the current squad and front foot football now, to recruiting for the future.  Of course the future has no expiry / judgement date.

Really hope I’m proven wrong but I’m not convinced.

Cushty club, jobs for the boys. Matt Hewlett is influential down there apparently. Surprised Steve Phillips isn’t on the board, Keith Millen as CFO or Joe Burnell as Head Chef.