Too Much Negativity

[firstdivision]

24 minutes ago, mason said:

9 seasons of hope and little else, 9 seasons of stagnation, 9 seasons of cashing in on our best players, the latest window has brought in loaned players who wont be here next season and some young guns who may stopover on their journey to the south coast, or elsewhere;

While we well what? stay for another 9 seasons repeating,repeating...another manager...another bright hope another window etc.

Nothings changed same sh1te different season, another manager more hope spouted; season already written off as plans for the next window/season are rolled out.

Nearly all sport is about failure if you think about it. I know Manchester United supporters who are constantly bemoaning their lot. Best to try to enjoy the wins and not get too distraught about the losses. We support a club that’s never been that good. And probably never will be. But when the good moments come, they are a bit sweeter. I went to the West Ham game with my two daughters. It’s now become a cherished memory. Transient, yes. Because there’s always another round or a game to lose. But special in its own way. Nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at when you’ve seen us in L1 and L2.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, firstdivision said:

But special in its own way. Nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at when you’ve seen us in L1 and L2.

I can see the logic in this. I was just talking to my wife today how the experience my kids get of watching the 6th best league in the world in a fantastic stadium pisses in a lot of ways on my experience of competing with Mansfield and Gillingham in the old third division while stood on a piss soaked east end.

But.

But.

Is this it? Is this what I stood at fellows park with West Midlands police blocking my view for? Is this what I drove through multiple accidents and arrived when 3-0 down at Gigg Lane for? Is this what I walked through the shitty streets of Burslem for?

Football, as life, is about progress. We’re all built that way - to do better. This is what I went through all those things for. But now I’m there - I want more. So should the club.

I don’t want piss in my pockets. But I do want ambition.

 

[Red Skin]

3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Dont call me Silvano!!!

I don’t know if you’ve read Fever Pitch but there’s a great passage in there where Nick Hornby articulates how much simpler things were when he was younger (and remember this was the 90s it was written). Players signed for Arsenal must have been good or they wouldn’t have signed them, and why would the England manager not pick the best team -  clearly they were the best players!

As time goes on Nick got to see more football and formed more opinions. So his logic fell apart. And it wasn’t a good feeling.

My point is that Nick began to develop opinions quicker the more football he consumed, and the easier it was to consume it. And the parallel here is that if you go back even 2 years, there wasnt the same access to all games, people watching on VPN etc. it’s not necessarily a social media thing, it’s an availability thing - people see more, and right now many people would have only seen 7 LM games 5 years ago as opposed to the full amount. So, I think the increased scrutiny is a function of increased information. And that’s probably a good thing, handled properly.

I have read Fever Pitch, but can't remember anything about it.  Probably my dyslexia and the mistake with your Username!

I get your point, but we were all flying abroad for Pearson games and watching those, but he didn't seem to get the same level of analysis.   We were awful for the first 6 months under Pearson and it was only the points Holden got at the start of the season that kept us up.  I really can't remember reading thread after thread criticising him.  

I'm with the OP.  Still willing to give LM time.  It was always gonna take time, some new players, and a proper preseason.   I'm in no rush.  I've largely enjoyed the games, despite the shortcomings.   

[firstdivision]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I can see the logic in this. I was just talking to my wife today how the experience my kids get of watching the 6th best league in the world in a fantastic stadium pisses in a lot of ways on my experience of competing with Mansfield and Gillingham in the old third division while stood on a piss soaked east end.

But.

But.

Is this it? Is this what I stood at fellows park with West Midlands police blocking my view for? Is this what I drove through multiple accidents and arrived when 3-0 down at Gigg Lane for? Is this what I walked through the shitty streets of Burslem for?

Football, as life, is about progress. We’re all built that way - to do better. This is what I went through all those things for. But now I’m there - I want more. So should the club.

I don’t want piss in my pockets. But I do want ambition.

 

Of course. I’m definitely on for beating Real Madrid in the Champions League final. It’s my fantasy day. But things aren’t as bad we can make them seem. And no one quite knows who can deliver what we want and when they will deliver it. We can guess but no one knows. So Liam Manning deserves some patience and a couple of windows. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

57 minutes ago, mason said:

9 seasons of hope and little else, 9 seasons of stagnation, 9 seasons of cashing in on our best players, the latest window has brought in loaned players who wont be here next season and some young guns who may stopover on their journey to the south coast, or elsewhere;

While we well what? stay for another 9 seasons repeating,repeating...another manager...another bright hope another window etc.

Nothings changed same sh1te different season, another manager more hope spouted; season already written off as plans for the next window/season are rolled out.

Guess depends how long you have been watching and where your historical benchmark of city is, for most of my time, the average has been below our current level or yo-yoing between the 2 divisions. Completing against the gas, swindon  Plymouth etc, so being an established championship team to me is progress on the field and we can all agree massive progress off it.

It seems some can only be happy in the prem and whilst I would like us to get there, it does not prevent me enjoying us being competitive in the current division 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 hours ago, Ashton Fete said:

For me, I see the plan and style, I see some the signings already and I’m actually quite excited for next season and what could play out

Last night was an off night against a Leeds team that tore us apart with some of the best players I’ve seen in the championship for years

Apart from last night and against Millwall, under Manning I’ve seen more than enough to suggest next season could be very promising 

And that’s coming from someone who didn’t want Pearson sacked or wasn’t overly impressed with the Manning appointment 

But I do see enough to be excited about next season

OK Brian, care to share with the rest of us what the plan is? 

What are you seeing that myself and many others are not seeing? 

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I have read Fever Pitch, but can't remember anything about it.  Probably my dyslexia and the mistake with your Username!

I get your point, but we were all flying abroad for Pearson games and watching those, but he didn't seem to get the same level of analysis.   We were awful for the first 6 months under Pearson and it was only the points Holden got at the start of the season that kept us up.  I really can't remember reading thread after thread criticising him.  

I'm with the OP.  Still willing to give LM time.  It was always gonna take time, some new players, and a proper preseason.   I'm in no rush.  I've largely enjoyed the games, despite the shortcomings.   

There were loads of threads, but there were loads of reasonable counter arguments.

Some very simple, like:

• Holden was the wrong appointment
• Ashton is the devil incarnate
• the players have downed tools
• covid
• etc

So maybe it didn’t gather the momentum it might when you compare to now:

• Nige was a good appointment / popular at time of sacking
• Finances are sorted
• The hierarchy putting pressure on LM
• etc

Sometimes you can’t compare like for like, sometimes you can.

I think I will know for sure come April / May what we’ve got in LM.

[Red Skin]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There were loads of threads, but there were loads of reasonable counter arguments.

Some very simple, like:

• Holden was the wrong appointment
• Ashton is the devil incarnate
• the players have downed tools
• covid
• etc

So maybe it didn’t gather the momentum it might when you compare to now:

• Nige was a good appointment / popular at time of sacking
• Finances are sorted
• The hierarchy putting pressure on LM
• etc

Sometimes you can’t compare like for like, sometimes you can.

I think I will know for sure come April / May what we’ve got in LM.

I recall those kinds of threads, but not the detailed game by game analysis of Pearson's style of play and tactics.  

[Dr Balls]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

There were loads of threads, but there were loads of reasonable counter arguments.

Some very simple, like:

• Holden was the wrong appointment
• Ashton is the devil incarnate
• the players have downed tools
• covid
• etc

So maybe it didn’t gather the momentum it might when you compare to now:

• Nige was a good appointment / popular at time of sacking
• Finances are sorted
• The hierarchy putting pressure on LM
• etc

Sometimes you can’t compare like for like, sometimes you can.

I think I will know for sure come April / May what we’ve got in LM.

That’s fair but he really needs results right now. Our current league form is woeful. And Manning and his assistant don’t seem to know how to affect a game positively through making changes. Lose the next 3 games, which is quite possible, and the volume of unhappiness on here and elsewhere will likely rise close to levels heard at the time of Pearson’s departure. Which will suddenly make the QPR game a “must win”!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

14 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Realistically you don’t win all of those either.

My problem at present (I’m not rehashing the Pearson argument again) is I’m not even sure he’s making the best of what I accept is a thin squad. 

Knight certainly isn’t best utilised where he’s playing & if he is going to play 2 strikers (I like Nakhi but I’m not sure it suits us) then playing TC on the left sure isn’t the best way.

Finally his refusal to give Roberts any game time at all suggests he doesn’t rate him & any time Mehmeti gets on in front of Bell or even Cornick baffles me.
 

Is Roberts now fit to play ?

[bcfcnick]

16 hours ago, petehinton said:

Also didn’t sound too convinced about Twine staying. 

He did say if there is a deal to be done we'll do it.  He'll be fully aware that if City want to buy at a fair bit less than the £5m asking price he can't be excessively enthusiastic or emphatic about wanting to buy.

I like the signings of the recruitment team.   They look exciting and astute in the context of the (relatively) low-wage market City can compete in.  Not all will work out but they all look like they have the potential to do well.  The one area where they will probably splash the cash with an up to £5m budget (or more if the likes of Cam Pring and Tommy move on) is the physical but mobile no. 9.    It looks like there is going to be a sensible move from a decent but ageing and pedestrian midfield to something more dynamic which the arrival of Bird and others will bring.  

I think James, King (who might stay as a coach),  Mehmeti, Roberts, Cornick and a few of the academy lads will be moved on.  Williams has done well and could well stay to give some experience and competive bite.  It is that cliche of 'a work in progress' but some of the negativity is unjustified.  We've outplayed a premier top-six side and in a fair number of the league games we have played then more chances than under Nige have been created but there has been nobody clinical enough to take them or provide better assists.  We say how different that was when Twine was playing.

Maybe it's the south-east Asan heat deluding me, but I am excited for next season. With a more youthful and creative midfield and that elusive clinical finisher, I reckon we'll finish top six.

[FNQ]

2 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

He did say if there is a deal to be done we'll do it.  He'll be fully aware that if City want to buy at a fair bit less than the £5m asking price he can't be excessively enthusiastic or emphatic about wanting to buy.

I like the signings of the recruitment team.   They look exciting and astute in the context of the (relatively) low-wage market City can compete in.  Not all will work out but they all look like they have the potential to do well.  The one area where they will probably splash the cash with an up to £5m budget (or more if the likes of Cam Pring and Tommy move on) is the physical but mobile no. 9.    It looks like there is going to be a sensible move from a decent but ageing and pedestrian midfield to something more dynamic which the arrival of Bird and others will bring.  

I think James, King (who might stay as a coach),  Mehmeti, Roberts, Cornick and a few of the academy lads will be moved on.  Williams has done well and could well stay to give some experience and competive bite.  It is that cliche of 'a work in progress' but some of the negativity is unjustified.  We've outplayed a premier top-six side and in a fair number of the league games we have played then more chances than under Nige have been created but there has been nobody clinical enough to take them or provide better assists.  We say how different that was when Twine was playing.

Maybe it's the south-east Asan heat deluding me, but I am excited for next season. With a more youthful and creative midfield and that elusive clinical finisher, I reckon we'll finish top six.

Nah, you're right, you're deluded.

[bcfcnick]

We'll see and anyway, I would rather be deluded rather than misery personified.  If only we could bring back the good old transfer windows with Marley Watkins, Jens Hegeler,  Chris Martin and multi-million Kasey Palmer type of signings. Good clubs in the bag are what we need plus a few senior pros looking for their last pay cheque.

 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

9 hours ago, Red Skin said:

I recall those kinds of threads, but not the detailed game by game analysis of Pearson's style of play and tactics.  

Perhaps people were more concerned with the plight of the club at the time? Damage limitation? Or perhaps because it was an experienced manager instead of an unknown coach? It was a different time and situation. Dunno, I think most people recognised the terrible state of the squad etc., the make do and mend

[cidercity1987]

Out come the Bristol City are little brigade yet again

I'm not having any of it

Being the biggest historical underachievers in the country is no reason at all to continue to be the biggest underachievers.

We have a modern stadium, a decent upper Champ level training ground, fantastic crowds given our underachievement that are usually top third in this division, play in a great and rich city.

There is NO reason whatsoever to see lower midtable Champ as the best it can get for us. We should never be in danger of relegation from this league. 

Anything other than play off pushes is again, underachievement.

You wouldn't see this nonsense of sub par expectations at other clubs with far less fans.

[ChippenhamRed]

10 hours ago, firstdivision said:

Nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at when you’ve seen us in L1 and L2.

I get your point. And you’re right, in the context of our history - nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at.

But there’s a wider context as well. The context that has us as the biggest club in the South West, with no Premier League club within 100 miles. A club in the 10th(ish) biggest city in the country. A club with a top class stadium and training facilities. A club capable of taking 45,000 fans to London for a game against Walsall. A club that has watched Bournemouth, Swansea, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Blackpool, Luton, Cardiff, Burnley, Wigan, Brentford, Stoke and Reading all surpass our own achievements in the modern era by playing in the Premier League.

Looking at our own history as a barometer for our success does nothing but highlight just how pathetically little we have achieved as a club for generations. I don’t want to be told to be grateful for 9 straight seasons in the second tier.

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Out come the Bristol City are little brigade yet again

I'm not having any of it

Being the biggest historical underachievers in the country is no reason at all to continue to be the biggest underachievers.

We have a modern stadium, a decent upper Champ level training ground, fantastic crowds given our underachievement that are usually top third in this division, play in a great and rich city.

There is NO reason whatsoever to see lower midtable Champ as the best it can get for us. We should never be in danger of relegation from this league. 

Anything other than play off pushes is again, underachievement.

You wouldn't see this nonsense of sub par expectations at other clubs with far less fans.

We were writing very similar posts at the exact same time.

[The Wild Bunch]

17 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I get your point. And you’re right, in the context of our history - nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at.

But there’s a wider context as well. The context that has us as the biggest club in the South West, with no Premier League club within 100 miles. A club in the 10th(ish) biggest city in the country. A club with a top class stadium and training facilities. A club capable of taking 45,000 fans to London for a game against Walsall. A club that has watched Bournemouth, Swansea, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Blackpool, Luton, Cardiff, Burnley, Wigan, Brentford, Stoke and Reading all surpass our own achievements in the modern era by playing in the Premier League.

Looking at our own history as a barometer for our success does nothing but highlight just how pathetically little we have achieved as a club for generations. I don’t want to be told to be grateful for 9 straight seasons in the second tier.

We were writing very similar posts at the exact same time.

 

20 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Out come the Bristol City are little brigade yet again

I'm not having any of it

Being the biggest historical underachievers in the country is no reason at all to continue to be the biggest underachievers.

We have a modern stadium, a decent upper Champ level training ground, fantastic crowds given our underachievement that are usually top third in this division, play in a great and rich city.

There is NO reason whatsoever to see lower midtable Champ as the best it can get for us. We should never be in danger of relegation from this league. 

Anything other than play off pushes is again, underachievement.

You wouldn't see this nonsense of sub par expectations at other clubs with far less fans.

Totally agree with these posts.  Challenging the Championship Play Offs is a minimum and we have only managed it once in the Lansdown era.

[Tim Monaghan]

I always think about what Arsenal fans were saying about Arteta in his first season. 

[Sir Geoff]

7 minutes ago, Tim Monaghan said:

I always think about what Arsenal fans were saying about Arteta in his first season. 

They did the same to Emeri as well, though. Might not have needed Arteta at all 

[GrahamC]

8 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Is Roberts now fit to play ?

He’s been on the subs bench for the last 6 games, so you would think so.

[Street red]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I get your point. And you’re right, in the context of our history - nine seasons in the Championship is not to be scoffed at.

But there’s a wider context as well. The context that has us as the biggest club in the South West, with no Premier League club within 100 miles. A club in the 10th(ish) biggest city in the country. A club with a top class stadium and training facilities. A club capable of taking 45,000 fans to London for a game against Walsall. A club that has watched Bournemouth, Swansea, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Blackpool, Luton, Cardiff, Burnley, Wigan, Brentford, Stoke and Reading all surpass our own achievements in the modern era by playing in the Premier League.

Looking at our own history as a barometer for our success does nothing but highlight just how pathetically little we have achieved as a club for generations. I don’t want to be told to be grateful for 9 straight seasons in the second tier.

We were writing very similar posts at the exact same time.

Swindon and Bradford city have also been in the premier league.

[ChippenhamRed]

21 minutes ago, Street red said:

Swindon and Bradford city have also been in the premier league.

The funny thing is, I was going through the league tables picking out small-ish teams that have got there and didn’t even get as far as League 2!

Edited February 4 by ChippenhamRed

[Ashton Fete]

11 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

OK Brian, care to share with the rest of us what the plan is? 

What are you seeing that myself and many others are not seeing? 

It’s all a matter of perspectives of course

i see us starting to become a team that is better at building up phases of play between the lines, we are defensively more solid than we have been for some time, we are moving the ball quicker (mostly) and I can see with some of the signings we’re making that there’s potential to be fast, exciting to watch and more creative

But it will take time, you can’t make players something they’re not and so when changing playing styles so starkly as we are it’s not a few months thing

My point being is that im more optimistic than not that next season will be our best for many years and see us around the play offs

i felt Nige should have been given until the end of the season but once it became known to him and obvious to all he wasn’t getting a new contract then it rapidly played out as we all saw.

I bought into Nige 100% but let’s be honest, some of the football was as boring as the days of Pulis, not in style but in fun to watch, shots and creative changes

I remember 2-3 home games in a row last year where we didn’t even have a shot on target

So in summary, I see some changes in which I think are worth being patient with, that’s all

[BrizzleRed]

3 hours ago, mason said:

Why do you think Conway isnt very interested in signing a new contact? fully expect a few others to be head hunted this summer. Mediocre City is us, with little to no desire to at least try to move forward.

Exactly!  
The happy clappers might buy into the bs put out by the club, but the players know what’s really happening here.  They’ll know that if they want to progress their careers, it’s not worth waiting around here to do it.

[bearded_red]

14 minutes ago, Ashton Fete said:

we are moving the ball quicker (mostly)

I bought into Nige 100% but let’s be honest, some of the football was as boring as the days of Pulis, not in style but in fun to watch, shots and creative changes

I remember 2-3 home games in a row last year where we didn’t even have a shot on target

Fair play, claiming we’re moving the ball quicker has given me a good laugh. What a truly preposterous statement. We used to play fast counter attack, moving the ball forward quickly and having runners like Sykes and Bell breaking lines, we now attempt to roll the ball along the back line.

As for going 2/3 homes games in a row without a shot on target, I’d be very interested in which games these were? As it just didn’t happen did it.

Even attempting to compare the football played under Pearson, in any way, with Pulis is just absolute nonsense.

[Big C]

3 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Out come the Bristol City are little brigade yet again

I'm not having any of it

Being the biggest historical underachievers in the country is no reason at all to continue to be the biggest underachievers.

We have a modern stadium, a decent upper Champ level training ground, fantastic crowds given our underachievement that are usually top third in this division, play in a great and rich city.

There is NO reason whatsoever to see lower midtable Champ as the best it can get for us. We should never be in danger of relegation from this league. 

Anything other than play off pushes is again, underachievement.

You wouldn't see this nonsense of sub par expectations at other clubs with far less fans.

We are not in danger of relegation and its difficult (not impossible)  to compete with in a league with teams who have parachute payments

[Street red]

6 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

The funny thing is, I was going through the league tables picking out small-ish teams that have got there and didn’t even get as far as League 2!

Crazy isn't it the amount of teams that have achieved it before us.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

and in a fair number of the league games we have played then more chances than under Nige have been created but there has been nobody clinical enough to take them or provide better assists. 

You can’t cherry pick!

Overall, we are creating:

• less chances
• worse quality chances

Under LM than under Nige.  Those are the facts I’m afraid (Opta).  I think views are biased (unintentionally) by aesthetics, ie the football is a bit prettier.

The fact that we’ve scored 3 penalties (conceded 1 penalty) is skewing results a bit too.  In the championship a team gets a penalty every 11 games, we’ve had 3 in 15 under Manning, 0 in 15 under Nige / Curtis.

46 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Fair play, claiming we’re moving the ball quicker has given me a good laugh. What a truly preposterous statement. We used to play fast counter attack, moving the ball forward quickly and having runners like Sykes and Bell breaking lines, we now attempt to roll the ball along the back line.

As for going 2/3 homes games in a row without a shot on target, I’d be very interested in which games these were? As it just didn’t happen did it.

Even attempting to compare the football played under Pearson, in any way, with Pulis is just absolute nonsense.

Again, data shows that only Swansea move the ball slower up the pitch than us (something called Direct Speed) under LM.  We make an average number of passes per minute of possession (something called passing rate).  A combo of both shows we pass a fair bit sideways and back.

FWIW we weren’t overly fast with Nige, but still a fair bit better.

[supercidered]

On 03/02/2024 at 09:20, Better Red said:

Beat Forest Wednesday.

Sykes & Twine comes back.

The new winger looks a world beater.

We win 2 on the bounce

Can’t wait for everyone to then come back on here and say we are negative , crap football etc..

I have been watching for 45 years and we are in the ‘good years’.

Give Liam a chance it feels like we are building something.

The growing attendance and away followings say it can’t all be bad.

If we maybe 3 quality players to the squad in the summer which is already competitive then we have a chance of a top 6

I can't believe I just saw a squadron of pigs fly past my window!

[Dr Balls]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You can’t cherry pick!

Overall, we are creating:

• less chances
• worse quality chances

Under LM than under Nige.  Those are the facts I’m afraid (Opta).  I think views are biased (unintentionally) by aesthetics, ie the football is a bit prettier.

The fact that we’ve scored 3 penalties (conceded 1 penalty) is skewing results a bit too.  In the championship a team gets a penalty every 11 games, we’ve had 3 in 15 under Manning, 0 in 15 under Nige / Curtis.

Again, data shows that only Swansea move the ball slower up the pitch than us (something called Direct Speed) under LM.  We make an average number of passes per minute of possession (something called passing rate).  A combo of both shows we pass a fair bit sideways and back.

FWIW we weren’t overly fast with Nige, but still a fair bit better.

What would be really interesting is how much of our possession is actually between the back 5. How many times do we see passes backwards and sideways from Tanner and Vyner particularly? Probably because their forward passes are so poor and inaccurate so “safety first” but it’s not exactly exciting!