sin bins using blue cards to be introduced in season 2024/25?

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Its a really good piece of armour for a referee to have, and use. So far I think it’s only been used for abuse etc, but it can only be good that it will be also used for cynical “ taking one for the team” fouls. It’s about time these were stamped down on with more than just a yellow card. 

I definitely think something is needed to distinguish the “honest” attempted tackle on an opponent in a really good counter-attack (yellow) and the “dangerous hack” on an opponent in same situation (red).  In particular the shirt grab / arm around / piggy back (Luke O’Nien v Alex Scott).  That is much easier for the ref to decide, essentially using the arms or torso (body check) to stop a counter should be blue card.

So, if the Reds Association can come up with some pretty clear guidelines, why not is my view.

There has to be some penalty to blatantly stopping a counterattack.  I’ve been pleased to see the odd ref give a red card where the stooping of the opponent has been reckless, e.g. the wild swipe across the back of the opponent’s legs.

The next question is - how long is 10 mins?  10 mins game time, or 10 minutes ball-in-play.  It is likely that the team with the player in the sin bin will try to waste as much as that as possible.  Imagine Preston under Alex Neil!!!

So totally in favour of it, but worried about the implementation.

[phantom]

Before people get too worried about this, the original stories are very misleading, it's not even been discussed yet

[Steve Watts]

13 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

As per the title they are to be trialled, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68246971

 

The whole article is an exercise in ifs, buts, maybes and "we don't have a clue if this will come in, when it might come in, what will be included and what level it might be trialled at"!

I'm frankly amazed they managed to stretch it out to a scrolling page!

Edited February 9 by Steve Watts

[2015]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I thought attendances were on the up? Every club is trying to increase it's capacity in some way.

Maybe at a lower league level, but I think interest at the top of the sport is on the decline personally. You can thank the ridiculous money being spent, corruption and VAR for that.

Edited February 9 by 2015

[Port Said Red]

5 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Maybe at a lower league level, but I think interest at the top of the sport is on the decline personally. You can thank the ridiculous money being spent, corruption and VAR for that.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/686981/football-aggregate-attendance-by-league-united-kingdom/

 

[2015]

3 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/686981/football-aggregate-attendance-by-league-united-kingdom/

 

I still think the Sport is on a decline, and I have done for about 4-5 years now. The changing in rules, VAR, the changes being made to the World Cup's, Tournaments being played in corrupt nations, money being spent that is unsustainable.

Every Sport has its peak and I think Football had its peak between 1990 - 2019 ish. 

Too many rules being introduced, too many players being coached the same way too and too much exposure is leading to the Sport being a pretty bland spectacle on the whole.

I also think attendances are on the up as the game has become more family friendly, not because the Sport has improved in any way.

Edited February 9 by 2015

[IAmNick]

8 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Every Sport has its peak and I think Football had its peak between 1990 - 2019 ish. 

Did this peak conincide with you being between maybe 10 - 30 or so by any chance?

I suspect everyone elses peak would also coincide with those years in their life. Weird that eh!

Edited February 9 by IAmNick

[ExiledAjax]

16 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I still think the Sport is on a decline, and I have done for about 4-5 years now. The changing in rules, VAR, the changes being made to the World Cup's, Tournaments being played in corrupt nations, money being spent that is unsustainable.

Every Sport has its peak and I think Football had its peak between 1990 - 2019 ish. 

Too many rules being introduced, too many players being coached the same way too and too much exposure is leading to the Sport being a pretty bland spectacle on the whole.

I also think attendances are on the up as the game has become more family friendly, not because the Sport has improved in any way.

Between 1990 and 2019 football saw a huge number of rule changes (backpass, handball and offside changes, goal-line tech, subs numbers increased), a massive increase in exposure (Sky, international TV rights), expansion of both the World Cup (24 to 32 teams), Euros (8 to 24 teams in 2020), and other competitions (the PL was formed in 92/93), a big shift in coaching and analysis (data, eradication of booze culture) huge increase in the use of data and sports science, and a massive increase on the amount of money in the game (record British transfer fee went from £4.25m in 1989 to £105m in 2018).

Why in your opinion did those huge changes result in football's peak, but now you think it will lead to inevitable decline?

Ps. I reckon @IAmNick has the answer.

Edited February 9 by ExiledAjax

[Port Said Red]

13 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I still think the Sport is on a decline, and I have done for about 4-5 years now. The changing in rules, VAR, the changes being made to the World Cup's, Tournaments being played in corrupt nations, money being spent that is unsustainable.

Every Sport has its peak and I think Football had its peak between 1990 - 2019 ish. 

Too many rules being introduced, too many players being coached the same way too and too much exposure is leading to the Sport being a pretty bland spectacle on the whole.

I also think attendances are on the up as the game has become more family friendly, not because the Sport has improved in any way.

I don't know how you can say that the game is on the decline because it's attracting more fans from a different demographic than before. That's a good thing isn't it? Of course the game may be losing some people (e.g. single males over 45) I don't know, but they/we aren't the future of the game. 

If your personal interest, or the interest levels of your friends is declining, I don't think that's indicative of the sport as a whole.

Edited February 9 by Port Said Red

[Portland Bill]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I definitely think something is needed to distinguish the “honest” attempted tackle on an opponent in a really good counter-attack (yellow) and the “dangerous hack” on an opponent in same situation (red).  In particular the shirt grab / arm around / piggy back (Luke O’Nien v Alex Scott).  That is much easier for the ref to decide, essentially using the arms or torso (body check) to stop a counter should be blue card.

So, if the Reds Association can come up with some pretty clear guidelines, why not is my view.

There has to be some penalty to blatantly stopping a counterattack.  I’ve been pleased to see the odd ref give a red card where the stooping of the opponent has been reckless, e.g. the wild swipe across the back of the opponent’s legs.

The next question is - how long is 10 mins?  10 mins game time, or 10 minutes ball-in-play.  It is likely that the team with the player in the sin bin will try to waste as much as that as possible.  Imagine Preston under Alex Neil!!!

So totally in favour of it, but worried about the implementation.

At grassroots it’s 10 minutes from the referees watch. As you can imagine, the player is desperate to get back on after 5 minutes!.

I don’t know what will happen at the top level, I imagine it will be handed over to the fourth official to time it.

The big issue is that players at the top have been allowed for far too long to get away with abuse, and swearing at the officials. Grassroots players see this on tv, and think it’s acceptable.
 

The officials at the lower levels have paid for the leniency that the top level officials give players. Hopefully the top level officials will now use this new tool properly, and the abuse will stop… time will tell. 

Edited February 9 by Portland Bill

[2015]

11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Between 1990 and 2019 football saw a huge number of rule changes, a massive increase in exposure (Sky, international TV rights), expansion of both the World Cup (24 to 32 teams), Euros (8 to 24 teams in 2020), and other competitions (the PL was formed in 92/93), a big shift in coaching and analysis (data, eradication of booze culture) huge increase in the use of data and sports science, and a massive increase on the amount of money in the game (record British transfer fee went from £4.25m in 1989 to £105m in 2018).

Why in your opinion did those huge changes result in football's peak, but now you think it will lead to inevitable decline?

Ps. I reckon @IAmNick has the answer.

11 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Did this peak conincide with you being between maybe 10 - 30 or so by any chance?

I suspect everyone elses peak would also coincide with those years in their life. Weird that eh!

Because it's my opinion that the Sport is not as authentic as it used to be. Every team/country play with the same identity nowadays. There is no diversity in style.

Too many teams being introduced to Tournaments now without really working hard to get there because of how many team's who are allowed to qualify has diluted the quality.

Too many players coached to play the same way rather than having exciting and thrilling Number 10s and lightning fast wingers who get down the touchline. 

I'm sorry, I find modern football as a spectacle rather boring to watch. It's overly tactical, players seem like they are being played with shackles on and the characters just aren't there any more.

And I am actually under the age of 30 by the way @IAmNick because I know you'll try the old 'it was better when I was younger' argument.

Edited February 9 by 2015

[Port Said Red]

45 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

For multiple reasons I think this will be positive.

Sin bins already work well in numerous other team sports, including very high-paced sports like ice hockey, and other field sports such as hockey and rugby. 

It's not a rule change, it's a new tool for referees to enforce the rules that already exist.

It should also bring new attacking tactics as well as potentially defensive ones. @Port Said Red have you seen that in the games you've watched?

The laws of the game have never stood still. From the outlawing of hacking in the 1800s, to the adaptations of offside, to the removal of the backpass in the 90s. There is not single point in time when the laws were perfect, and if anyone likes back through rose-tinted glasses and says there is...they're kidding themselves.

I can't see it being anything more than a positive change. 

Did you mean to tag me here? I haven't followed any of those sports. I am new to basketball and they don't really have a sin bin as such. A player can be "sent off" for 5 personal fouls, but it doesn't reduce the team numbers, just the options for making changes. 

Coaches seem to use there own sin bin approach though and will take a player out if they are 3 or 4 fouls, and reintroduce them in the final minutes, reducing the risk of losing them completely.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

Did you mean to tag me here? I haven't followed any of those sports. I am new to basketball and they don't really have a sin bin as such. A player can be "sent off" for 5 personal fouls, but it doesn't reduce the team numbers, just the options for making changes. 

Coaches seem to use there own sin bin approach though and will take a player out if they are 3 or 4 fouls, and reintroduce them in the final minutes, reducing the risk of losing them completely.

Sorry I thought you said you'd seen games at a low level of football where blue cards had been used? That's what I was alluding to. Wasn't expecting you to be expert on ice hockey!

[Portland Bill]

3 hours ago, Jose said:

Will ruin football as a spectacle. Will make teams sit back and waste time until they come back on. Tell you something, things like this make me think about just giving up on the sport completely. Slowly falling out of love with the game that i was obsessed with for the last 25 years. 

It doesn’t spoil the game, it makes players behave properly. If players can’t behave properly then tough. 

I’ve actually fallen out of love with the game at the top, because I’ve become sick of the diving, cheating, dissent, and trying to con officials for 90 minutes. 
Players and managers need to start behaving properly, if they won’t, then accept the punishment and go off for ten minutes, simple. 

[Port Said Red]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sorry I thought you said you'd seen games at a low level of football where blue cards had been used? That's what I was alluding to. Wasn't expecting you to be expert on ice hockey!

Ah right, that was another "port" @Portland Bill he's answered your point above I think?

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Port Said Red said:

Ah right, that was another "port" @Portland Bill he's answered your point above I think?

Any port in a (media) storm eh?

Apologies.

[2015]

[westonred]

1 hour ago, Three Lions said:

 

5 no thats game abandoned laws of the game dont allow a team to play with seven.

 

 

 

Yes i realise that but if your 4 nil down wouldnt it be beneficial for the players to all kick off to try and get Sin Binned to get the match abandoned

[handsofclay]

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Has it "ruined the spectacle" for you?

Do teams that have a player sent to the bin just sit in and time waste for ten minutes?

Since Mangotsfield United dropped to the Hellenic League two seasons ago I have seen this used for dissent. The first couple of months the Mangos lost players during matches but once the message sunk in it has rarely happened since. I think the only time I have seen it this season was when a visiting keeper was adjudged to have brought Jaydn Crosbie down in the box. He argued the toss with the ref about it, got sent off for ten minutes, an outfield player had to put the keeper's jersey on and Crosbie put the pen past him.

For the next ten minutes the Mangos didn't manage a shot against the stand in, and the opposition more than matched them. On previous occasions too it hasn't been noticeable the team are depleted. It's like the remaining ten players think they have to up their game ten percent for just ten minutes and manage to do so. However, that's at Hellenic League level where livelihoods are not at stake.

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Since Mangotsfield United dropped to the Hellenic League two seasons ago I have seen this used for dissent. The first couple of months the Mangos lost players during matches but once the message sunk in it has rarely happened since. I think the only time I have seen it this season was when a visiting keeper was adjudged to have brought Jaydn Crosbie down in the box. He argued the toss with the ref about it, got sent off for ten minutes, an outfield player had to put the keeper's jersey on and Crosbie put the pen past him.

For the next ten minutes the Mangos didn't manage a shot against the stand in, and the opposition more than matched them. On previous occasions too it hasn't been noticeable the team are depleted. It's like the remaining ten players think they have to up their game ten percent for just ten minutes and manage to do so. However, that's at Hellenic League level where livelihoods are not at stake.

Really interesting thank you. So it sounds like it's been pretty successful at that level and hasn't really impacted the spectacle of the Hellenic League. 

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I thought attendances were on the up? Every club is trying to increase it's capacity in some way.

Every game being on the telly or streamed is certainly not helping that though.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, westonred said:

Yes i realise that but if your 4 nil down wouldnt it be beneficial for the players to all kick off to try and get Sin Binned to get the match abandoned

No, Neil you tried that before with Sheffield Utd. 

[Port Said Red]

8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Every game being on the telly or streamed is certainly not helping that though.

It doesn't seem to be affecting attendances though, streaming might be effecting Sky, BT etc, but the numbers in the ground continue to increase. 

[The Bard]

14 hours ago, Bs32red said:

Should be amber cards not blue though.

Yeah.  

Red is Danger

Yellow a warning.  Amber a serious warning.

Blue is the colour of harmony and contentment.  

[Robbored]

I haven’t scrolled through this thread so this may have already been mentioned - surely a yellow card could  warrant 10mins in the sin bin? No need to unnecessarily complicate a system that already works pretty well.

All these different coloured card is a ridiculous suggestion.

I reckon it’s as a consequence of the Turkish referee being punched by a club owner and everything kicking off - a complete knee jerk reaction imo.

[The Bard]

As usual the problem isn't the idea itself, it's football's inability to implement changes in a logical way. 

It makes absolute sense to have a sin bin for certain offences. I'd suggest for all cards. A caution is supposed to be a deterrent.  Atm its seen as something you sometimes have to accept for the greater good. But by differentiating between different cautions, they make the refereeing of the game more complex.  

They never seem to copy the good bits from other sports or learn their lessons.  Just try to create a whole set of new problems of their own making.   

If they introduced Sin bins for all yellows, that would speed the game up.  Then VAR review if it should be upgraded to a red.  Ref just needs to decide if it's at least a yellow. That will be quicker. Game isn't stopped as much. 

You would hope a couple of irritating things would end immediately such as Goalkeepers time wasting and 'taking the yellow'.

[2015]

26 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

It doesn't seem to be affecting attendances though, streaming might be effecting Sky, BT etc, but the numbers in the ground continue to increase. 

It's more family friendly these days so the dynamics of the football crowds have changed. I think the core supporters that have always been interested in the Sport are slowly losing their interest, but attend to see their club play anyway out of the love they have for their team.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

Yeah.  

Red is Danger

Yellow a warning.  Amber a serious warning.

Blue is the colour of harmony and contentment.  

But blue has a much stronger contrast against red and yellow than amber/orange does. That makes it more easily distinguished from the other two. This is particularly useful for colourblind fans. Blue is a good choice.

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

I reckon it’s as a consequence of the Turkish referee being punched by a club owner and everything kicking off - a complete knee jerk reaction imo.

No. It's not.

[MarcusX]

16 hours ago, Markthehorn said:

Good idea for dissent but won’t a foul just be another subjective call so you will get refs giving blue cards for one thing but not another which someone else might . .

Exactly what happens in amateur level.

Good idea, badly implemented because it's still so inconsistent.

Last weekend in our game the ref spent the entire game warning people if they carry on he'll use the sin bin - he didn't, they carried on. No authority at all some of them.

[Portland Bill]

6 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Has it "ruined the spectacle" for you?

Do teams that have a player sent to the bin just sit in and time waste for ten minutes?

No, I haven’t witnessed any of that. All I hear is the other players telling their team mate what he pxxk he was, for getting sin binned.